Chris Dreyer:
If you want to give top dollar for your clients, the defense has to know you aren't bluffing about going to court, but that means you're always preparing for trial. It takes serious cash, a team that challenges you, and an airtight connection to your community to make it all work. So how do you pull it all together without burning out or going broke? That's exactly what we'll dive into with today's guest.
This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. Today, we're sitting down with Steven Leibel. Steven has a fascinating career practicing law for 46 years. His career is so varied that we're not even going to dive into the massive $776 million verdict he's secured for his clients. But yes, he's done that too. I think his approach to building his business and career offers a lot of wisdom about building a practice that truly works for you, your team, and your community. He's mastered authentic grassroots marketing, smart case financing, and building a culture that isn't afraid to ask hard questions. Let's get into it.
Steven Leibel:
The win that we've had most recently is settling cases because people know that we're ready to go to trial. And I think the real key in all of this is, if you want to get a million dollar verdict or a million dollar settlement, you have to do the work in order to make that happen. And people on the other side have to know that you are willing to go to trial. And sadly, what I see over the years, and I'm now an old guy. It's funny because I don't regard myself as such, but I've been practicing for 46 years and I have seen the real denigration, the depletion of real trial lawyers out there who are willing, able and ready to go to trial. There aren't as many as there used to be. Great trial lawyers that I knew have retired out or passed away or whatever, but more and more the mediation process is coming into play and more and more people are settling cases rather than trying them. But you have to be ready to go.
We have a number of them that are ready to go now. We have a couple of cases, one that will be tried in federal court in July in Georgia. Another one is scheduled for federal court in July in Knoxville. We have other trials that are ready to go. But I'm proud of the verdicts that I've gotten in the past, but I'm also ... We just got just a three quarter of a million dollar verdict in a rural county just about a year ago. We get ready to try a number of cases a year, but a lot of them settle. We had one just the other day that we settled for a couple of hundred thousand and an initial offer was less than 80,000. But when you're ready to go and you're getting it ready and you are going to go, that gives you opportunities in which to resolve cases as well.
Chris Dreyer:
Completely agree, and I see both sides. I do think, just in my opinion, I think more trial-ready attorneys will start to emerge just because of what's happening in the space. I think that the cost to acquire a case is going to be squeezed and driven up so much that I think people are going to have to try to get maximum value and won't be able to just settle onto the next. Any thoughts on that?
Steven Leibel:
Well, I think what's going on is there's a lot of competition for personal injury. There's a lot of television. There's a lot of expense involved in getting a new case. Now, if you're fortunate, like I am where I've been around for a while, and people call you because you've had client referrals from the past, the case cost itself is not as expensive. But what's expensive is making the case worthwhile. That means that you have to pay for the experts, you have to do the work in order to make it valuable, you have to monitor what's going on with the medicine, and you have to make sure that you get the right people to testify.
So when I talk with people about getting ready for trial, for example, I talk about what I call the spice. The spices are the people who surround you, who watch you while you're hurt. The people who can testify about the real effects of what has happened to a person rather than just them telling the story. And so, when I put together a case, I think of it as almost like a television show, more so than almost anything else, that the case has a life of its own, that the person who has been injured is an actor in that case. They are not the case. The case itself has a life of its own. So when you put together a case, you have to blueprint it, take a look at where you want to go. Who's going to testify about what happened to this individual? Because without that spice or that sauce that goes into the drama of the case, you will not be able to be as successful.
Chris Dreyer:
Do you think that many of the expert witnesses and doing what you're saying to create that spice is very costly and-?
Steven Leibel:
Very costly. Very, very costly.
Chris Dreyer:
I guess there's also some good companies and probably some predatory, I don't know companies on the litigation finance and helping you carry the cost. If you're going to advise a PI firm, do you think it's more to just carry more dry powder? Is it maybe a line of credit tied to inventory? How do you think about the cashflow and managing that?
Steven Leibel:
Well, I think about cashflow every day. As an owner, I worry about the money every day. Right now, we self-finance all of our cases. We are the bank, and when we lose, we lose all of our money. It makes you a business partner in a case. When you're looking at how to do it, I think a line of credit with a good community bank is a great way to go, or there are other banks that look at lawyers differently. I'm not here to plug other banks, but I do think that when you look at your business model as a younger lawyer, for example, start developing your relationships with the bank, start getting a line of credit, because really and truly it is different than predatory lending, where at the very end of the day, your client basically walks away with not much, and then they become very dissatisfied with you, they think you're making a fortune, and yet at the same time, they don't see the value that you borrowed all this money for them during their period of need and where are you?
It's a double-edged sword, because a lot of people say, "Well, I need money and how am I going to get it?" And the lawyer needs money in order to make the case worthwhile, and everybody comes out less in a sense. But with a line of credit for the lawyer, not necessarily for the client, but for the lawyer, you should really at best ... To me, my business model has been self-finance and line of credit with a bank. I normally do not borrow against my case costs, because I feel it's less pressure on me. Now, for my client, there are times that I do say you need to have money coming from an outside source. Unfortunately, that does skew the result for the client at the very end. It's just very expensive for them. That's my take.
Chris Dreyer:
Thank you for sharing that. We haven't really dug into that in any past episodes, and I've always wondered that because I hear of these firms carrying hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars associated with these really large cases that extend over long periods of time and I've just wondered like, "Geez!"
Steven Leibel:
It's very expensive. And I'll tell you what's also worse, tax code. You can't expense it as an expense. That is an account receivable. It's only when the case ends that you're able to do something with it. So you have to be stout when you get into this business. Everybody says, "I want to be a PI lawyer." Well, first of all, you should know what you're doing, because you become a problem with your malpractice carrier. And secondly, you really want to give your clients the best representation possible. It's so important. We have a mission in this world and that is to do the best that we can and that means we need to do the best we can for our client. Our client comes to us, we put their interests ahead of ours. But if you're in an economic situation where you can't afford to run with them, get another lawyer to help you.
Don't be afraid to share. It will come out better for you. And when you're younger, you need the mentoring as well of an experienced attorney who can help you navigate the shark-invested waters, is what I say, because it's really important that you do that.
Chris Dreyer:
Financing those massive case costs is a huge hurdle and the tax code doesn't make it easier when you're floating case expenses. You have to be willing to bet on yourself and take on that risk to get maximum value. But before you can finance a massive case and build out that spice for a jury, you have to acquire the case first. While private equity and mega firms are driving up digital acquisition costs across the board, Steven has a completely different grassroots approach to stand out in his market. I like how you're owning who you are. Right on the website, your site explicitly says, "If you need strong and effective representation that isn't afraid to go to trial, we're here to help." Talk to me about how you've approached generating the cases and how this has played into those systemic referrals that you mentioned previously.
Steven Leibel:
Well, we don't get a lot of referrals from other attorneys. We really don't. Attorneys will call me and I will give them information and advice. I don't need a piece of their pot. It's okay. If you need me and you want me to come aboard, I'll consider it. The way we generate work is a couple of ways. Number one is we try to be active in the community. That is, I try to sponsor things, be involved in local peoples and help them. Those are the things that we do. We do some social media, but not a lot. I have a nice big billboard, only one that's near my territory. After being in practice for so many years and people know that you're good, you come out as a person with a reputation that people want to utilize you.
I'm also involved in the chamber and I'm involved in a lot of different things. I try to be involved in the community. I do it in the old-fashioned way. That's the way I like to do it. I did some spend recently on a little bit of social through television and on a little bit of appearance. It doesn't make much difference in my marketing. My marketing is primarily homegrown. They have people know me and that's how I get to work. I also have a physician lawyer in my practice, because we do heavy duty medical malpractice. I do brain injury work. I was on the Brain and Spinal Injury Trust Fund Commission the years ago. I'm involved, and I think lawyers need to be involved, whether it's through their kids, which is a great way in which to get cases through the schools, great way to get cases.
Unfortunately for me, I don't have any grandchildren. My kids are older, so that marketing aspect is pretty much gone for me. But it's a good marketing opportunity for people. Most folks don't do medical malpractice. We do it, but we're selective, and we have to be, because these cases are hundreds of thousands of dollars of expert witness work. It's basically all expert witness, so you got to be careful.
Chris Dreyer:
I got to tell you, with all the AI that's emerging, the consolidation of the space and just blasting broadcast television, radio and streaming, what you're doing is the moat, the belly-to-belly, the relationships, the being a part of the community. It's something that takes time to develop. It's something that doesn't scale from a mass distribution, but it creates that trust in your community, so I think that's incredible.
Steven Leibel:
Well, look, we can always use more cases. I'll tell you the business model is that it's good to have automobile accident cases because they generally can be resolved. Although with tort reform now, they're trying to bring the values down because of the medical issue. Most of the time it was my experience that anybody who goes to trial knows that before tort reform that the jury assumes that everybody has health insurance anyway. I don't see that as the biggest issue, but I do think that trying the case a little bit differently is going to make some difference. But so far, if I looked around the horizon, I don't see that it's made a significant difference. It's made a significant difference in resolution of cases for lower amounts of money, but it hasn't made a difference as far as the way you try a case. Not much. Little bit. Little this and that.
Chris Dreyer:
Talk to me about developing your skills and experience as a trial lawyer. And look, I told you before we started, look, I'm not an attorney, but when you get an offer for who knows, let's say the policy limits a hundred grand and they offer you 90 grand. Is it a fight for the extra 10 because of the time? I don't know. What goes into that?
Steven Leibel:
Well, really and truly, that is sometimes not the issue. Sometimes it's that there's not enough policy to pay the judgment of the value of the case anyway. In Georgia, I don't know about any other jurisdiction, because I don't practice outside of Georgia particularly, although we do Pro Hack and we do cases outside of Georgia. But the mechanics in Georgia are that if you make a demand the right way and they deny the demand, you can get access. You may not ever settle a case, I have one right now, a brain injury case, I'll never settle that case. That case is going to go to trial. I know that for a fact. We'll get that ready and we will go to trial. If they offered me the policy limits, I wouldn't take it at this point.
Now, there are times that the economics of it are, are you going to fight over $5,000? I don't think so. But it's back and forth also. There's a lot of give and take and there's a lot of negotiation. I was speaking with my wife the other day and I said, when I was watching television about what's going on in the world, I said, "One thing that I can say is that litigation is a substitution for war. And you understand when you're watching politics what they're doing because that's what you're doing. You're saying things, you're bluffing, you're not bluffing. You have ammunition, they have ammunition. Everyone's talking about various things and then you have a resolution. The resolution is either through negotiation and resolution with a settlement agreement or it's a trial. It's all the same. When I look at world politics, for example, I see just what I'm doing right now, except mine's very small. My war is for individuals, not for countries.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm reading a book on branding right now, and I like to read the Ogilvy and what have you and it's the authenticity. It's like no one can copy your story, and it gives you different speaking points. There's so many PI attorneys and the question is, "Well, how can I stand out?" Well, it's like turn to authenticity. Who are you? What makes you different?
Steven Leibel:
Well, you take a look at what we've done in the past. All of us have a story. One of the things that I like about personal injury work is that you tell somebody else's story, as well as live your own story. Coming back again to what I said about producing a television show for the jury, we all are basically producing our own television shows as we live our lives. How do we react to certain things? What do we do? How do we conduct ourselves? All those things are part and parcel of who you are and your authenticity as being a human being. To me, that's very important. And when you go and attend a funeral, for example, and you listen to somebody's story, of course it's not a full story, but you can see what they've accomplished in their lives.
One of my very dear friends passed away some months ago. I was very close to him. He was an extraordinary individual. We had met at the NLRB and his story came out during his homecoming. When you look back at yourself and you look at what your authenticity, who you are, to me, that needs to travel into your work. Your story travels with another person's story in order to produce the most authentic vision of them before the 12 members of the jury, who also also have a story. The voir dire to me is a way in understanding the juror's stories and see how they can connect with your client's story.
Chris Dreyer:
Incredible. Authenticity is your ultimate moat. AI and massive advertising budgets can't replicate genuine community relationships or the unique story you bring to the courtroom, but delivering that authentic promise requires an exceptional staff backing you up. You need a team that isn't afraid to push back, challenge your assumptions, and elevate the standard of excellence across the entire firm. Talk to me just briefly about the team. You mentioned, and I was on the website earlier, you got a great-looking website.
Steven Leibel:
Thank you.
Chris Dreyer:
You've got the physician lawyer that does the medical malpractice. You have another individual I believe I was scanning his bio and talks about a lot of trial experience. Talk to me about ... the physician lawyer is a unique aspect. It's like a different level of expertise, a different whole section. But as you mentioned, med mal is very complicated, very expensive. You got to be very selective on what cases you take.
Steven Leibel:
Well, I'm grateful to have a good team. Paul, who is not the physician lawyer, but the physician lawyer is Steven. Steven has been with me about five years and Paul's been with me for over 20. Betty is my right-hand paralegal, who's been with me since it seems like beginning of time to me. She's been with me over 20 years as well. These are folks who I depend upon. Paul is brilliant writer and we debate all the time. The three of us debate all the time. And the one thing that you don't want as a lawyer or as a business person in my view, is you don't want an organization of yes people. You want an organization of people who will say no or you're wrong, so that you can argue with them and say, "No, I'm right, and this is why," and find out why.
To me, that's the intellectual curiosity of being an attorney or anybody. It's not being afraid to have people who are going to question you, and that's okay. Don't be afraid. It's funny, I said to my physician-lawyer said, "Well, I don't think it's that way, but of course, you're the physician and you know more than I do about it." And we discuss how do we present something? Why are we looking at something in a certain way? It extends not only to med mal, but to just injury. What's going to happen to this person? What's the physiology of this person? Why are they having such a hard time? What are the psychological ramifications? Do they have a prior ... We have a case right now where we have a person who has prior PTSD and other problems. That's going to have to come out because why are they so angry? What's going on?
All these things all are so interrelated, and medicine and psyche and law and economics and all of this stuff, it's just a big melting pot of stuff that you have to sort out. Having a good group of people, who are willing to bear with me and put up with me for all these years is really just a real blessing to me. That's a Southernism, by the way, people talk about blessing. But it is a blessing and it's an honor to work with really good people and people who you want to see on your team. Amazing. Amazing.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. And also, just the environment that you've created to allow them to question you and to have that feedback, and because it keeps you on your toes too and gives you different perspectives.
Steven Leibel:
Well, I think also, I'm grateful to them for allowing me to have an environment like this, because I think the problem is, is that so many people don't look at the environment. They think everything is ... They take it for granted. You can't take it for granted. You also have to ... I have a woman in my office, Terry, who does pre-lit and I'm grateful to her putting up with people who are calling and asking all these things and we try to help them. Our caseload is not hundreds. We're small. When I was much younger, I had five, six lawyers and I was doing this. This is better for me. And as I am able to do better work because I have fewer clients, that's helpful as well. Not to say that you shouldn't call me 404-892-0700. I'm there. But I think that we try to be some selective and sometimes ... I'll give you an example of that, we try to help people in our community.
We had a guy from the insurance company call and it was a small case. I said, "Look, it's a small case, but this is the amount of money it's worth." And I said, "It's in my community, and I'll take you to trial." I said, "And it's okay. I'll take you to trial, because this person need the money. It's not a lot of money, but I'll just do it because it's the right thing to do." And we got money, because they knew I was going to do it. And you help people too. You can tell people that you are going to go and you really will. Even if it's not, we're going to make a lot of money. It's okay. You have to help your community. Anyway, it's just stuff like that. It's an environment of trying to help people. I feel that way.
Chris Dreyer:
It's clear what you're doing, being a part of the community and how it's impacting your business and your firm and the lives around you, so that's amazing, so love hearing that. Steven, this has been amazing. For our audience listening, that maybe has some questions about a pod, about our conversation, or maybe they have a case that they want to send to you in Georgia. What's the best way to get in touch?
Steven Leibel:
Well, of course I have a website, but my email is Steven with a V. My other Steven is with a PH. I tell them, this is ... V is the correct way in which to spell it. Steven@ I pronounce it Leibel, but it's like Leibel, so it's L-E-I-B like boy, E-L.com. So it's steven@leibel.com. And the other number is 404-892-0700. You can ask for me. I love talking to other lawyers. Happy to help seriously. You have a question about something, and this is the other thing I want to just tell you real quick. There's a real lack of mentoring out there and I love to help people. I was just teaching at a new law school called High Point Law School in January, and I see that there's just such a need for lawyers who are older to give back to the younger lawyers, that enthusiasm and excitement of practicing law in an ethical way, in a good way to help your clients and understanding your responsibilities because being a lawyer is one thing, but being an attorney is a privilege.
You know the difference between a lawyer and an attorney. An attorney is one who passed the bar. So to me, that's a privilege and an honor.
Chris Dreyer:
Well said. Steven, thank you for coming on the show.
Steven Leibel:
Thanks so much for inviting me. This has been a real pleasure for me, and thank you for your time.
Chris Dreyer:
Massive thanks to Steven Leibel for sharing his time and decades of wisdom with us, from self-financing cases and leaning into the spice of trial, to building a firm culture that thrives on healthy debate. Steven's approach proves that you don't need a massive ad budget to make a massive impact. By staying authentic and deeply rooted in your community, you can build a trial-ready reputation that speaks for itself. If you want a digital presence that reflects your true identity and captures high value cases, hand it over to rankings.io. We help elite personal injury firms dominate search and build a lasting digital footprint. I'm Chris Dreyer. We'll catch you next time on Personal Injury Mastermind.
