Chris Dreyer:
Today's guest grew up in the TV business. He spent his afternoons hanging out with the TV station sales teams studying Nielsen ratings, and learning the media business from the ground up. Years later, he helped run a 40-station broadcast network before launching his own personal injury practice. This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, your host and founder and CEO of Rankings.io. Mike DePasquale brings a rare insider's view to legal marketing, and he puts in the work to building a firm across multiple states. He explains why broadcast television and secondary markets is still a very strong option for growing firms.
Michael DePasquale:
Television is still a really good way to reach mass audiences. Now, you don't have necessarily the modern targeting that your pitch with OGT. My idea was things and all marketing... Back up here. Sports were a big part of my youth growing up, and I played football through college. And one thing I learned through sports, I had a ton of failures in sports, more failures than successes. But it was that the teams that I was on that did good, we really focused on what I'll call the blocking and tackling. So, the football example, you can block and you can tackle, you're going to win games. So I apply that to marketing, and I feel like the blocking and tackling of our space is still the traditional side, television, outdoor, radio.
And then on the digital side, again, the blocking, tackling and the basics. The SEO, the under the SEM arena, pay-per-click. I've tried so many different things over the years that would be considered exotic. And I can tell you, most of the time I have not seen the success with those that I have using the holistic playbook of the traditional blocking, tackling, and the digital blocking, tackling. That's just me. That's my experience.
Chris Dreyer:
You've got to give me some of these examples of the exotic, again, like guerrilla marketing.
Michael DePasquale:
I was convinced. I was like, "This is going to be the biggest thing we ever did." Probably six, seven years ago, I'm like, "Hey, why don't we drive a little car out on the screen? Her text with a short code. That mobile dial short code on there." I'm like, "This thing, no one wants to make phone calls anymore." This is my one man evidence, right, which is a terrible idea, "This thing's going to kill it." We got a grand total. We ran this for a year maybe. One individual text came in through this. We're driving the little car out on the street, didn't work. Okay? I'm not saying it's not going to work in the future. Because sometimes in my opinion with marketing, you're into things too. Like, the time is not right for it. There was a time when the phone book was so prevalent. There were other forms of marketing that today might be SEO.
Well, at one point when people had dial-up modems and the first guys were optimizing their websites, it may not have been returning to the degree that it is today. I don't know, is that true or not? I'm asking you. The work that I was doing, it was just the timing wasn't right. And someone declared that a failure. And they were wrong, because it's not a failure. I know you can't dip your toe in the TV or you can't go put one billboard up and expect to see success. You can't do it with SEO. You've got to commit to it. And when you commit to it's, a) the money side of things. But b) yourself and your team, and putting efforts in to make it work, and taking your time.
Chris Dreyer:
I couldn't agree more. I think the capital's huge. You got to have enough distribution and saturation for the memorability, and just reaching people at the right moments and all those things. The OTT is interesting. I'm right there with you. A bunch of our clients have experimented with OTT in some of the larger firms, and it's the same thing. It's like, "Well, I think it's working." You do a blended analysis, or you do some incremental testing on a different VMA. But it is more challenging outside of your CTV stuff, where you can track it a little bit better, the connected TV. But what I find really interesting, as much as you want to talk about this is, you just went through a big rebrand. And you had a ton of capital on TV with DePasquale and Moore. And you made the decision to DM injury law. Talk to me through that moment where like, "Hey, I know we've invested these dollars here."
Michael DePasquale:
So, number one, let me say, I hope it works. Because you know, we just did it. The reason we did it was, I will tell you that. So my last name, DePasquale. I think there's good things and bad things about having a name like my name. Number one, I'm not aware of any other injury attorneys that have my last name that are... So, it's a unique name. But with the unique name, it's a hard name. And I'd walk through our call center and I'd hear the people that worked in there pronounce my name occasionally, flub it up a bit. I get recognized in public and it was always Mike, Mike, Mike. And then there'd be 19 different incarnations of my name. Because as you know our tagline, and what I still think our big brand is Mike's got this.
And so, I said to myself, and now with our marketing team I said, "Our brand is probably... Mike is probably the main thing. And then the name DePasquale Moore whatever is number two." And every law firm is name, name, name, name. It's a name, name, name. So we said, ""Let's do something different and just try to deviate from it." Hired an agency in town and I said, "What do you guys think?" And they did all the research, and they came back and said, "We think you should try this." And I told myself, "If it doesn't work I'll switch back." I don't want to do it. But...
Chris Dreyer:
Well, yeah, tough decision, right? Were there any conversations about like, "Hey, it's Mikesgotthis.com? I'm sure you have a redirect.
Michael DePasquale:
We still use mikesgotthis.com. I think the DM... Let's put it this way. One thing we've noticed is, this is a good thing. Now it'll probably change some over time, but since we really launched the DM, which has been mid '24, our branded search is increased. Everyone's still searching mikesgotthis, everyone's still searching DePasquale and Moore. Mikesgotthis was number one. DePasquale and Moore is still being searched at the same clip. But now we've added this other funnel of DM law, DM Injury Law. And I think that over time it'll be easier for people, another 10 years from now, it'll be in the past. But I would be lying if I said I'd not have some sleepless nights while making the change, because change is scary.
Chris Dreyer:
I think everything you just told me on the receiving end, I think it's logical. You've built that brand recognition. Your path, the DM Injury Law, it's fascinating, your big law, the television, then back to PI. So, talk to me about this route, this direction, this detour that you had, and talk to me about the past.
Michael DePasquale:
So, I graduated law school in 2006. I get a job at what I consider a big law firm in Kansas City. I worked there for a couple years and mid 2007 my dad calls me. My dad was in the media space. He calls me, he says, "Hey, listen, we're buying Clear Channel Television." Clear Channel was a large media company, radio broadcast, digital properties, outdoor, everything. And so they were publicly held, and so someone came and bought all the radio. My dad's company, he came and carved off all the TV stations and he said, "Hey, if you want to come work for me, quit your law firm, come work for me. Probably sell this company in five or so years. And we'll go from there." About the end of 2007 before this deal had closed, we agreed to buy these things and call it mid 2007. FCC had to approve it. It's going to be 9 to 12 months.
The economy starts to crater. So, the first thing that some businesses, I don't think smart businesses, we can talk about this later because, because this is kind of an inflection point in my business, they start to do... What do they do? They cut marketing. So, we're trying to close this deal to buy the Clear Channel TV stations. And every week the revenue is going tick, tick, tick, tick, tick down. So, the value of the company we agreed to pay is no longer. What does that mean? Revenues were down 30, 35%. Long story short, we get a big, big dispute with Clear Channel lawsuits, both directions. We eventually close the deal in early 2008, and we're plowing through. Well again, the ad market's still going down and down and down, both in broadcast and in the digital side, or our digital properties.
And I remember at that point there were some companies that were running, going out of business sales with us. They were furniture stores. Remember my dad said to me, or it was yesterday, he said, "Hey listen, if they had just stuck to their advertising game and not deviated from the plan, they wouldn't be going out of business. They'd be gobbling up market share from their competitors." And it was kind of put in one ear and it didn't go out, but I kind of stashed it in the back of my mind. So, at the same time we launched in the television company, I need a little extra money, because I want to get married to my now wife. And so, I started just a personal injury firm on the side. I was just taking a handful of cases. Because I had done defense work on big injury cases before and I'm like, "Hey, how hard can this thing be?"
So I started doing an injury case here and there, a referral or something like that. So fast forward to 2013, 2012, 2013, we sell it to them. And I'm like, "You know, I love the law. I love trial work, I love litigation." There's parts of the law I don't like. I would be an awful states entrust lawyer, business lawyer, et cetera. But I really like the injury side of things. So, light bulb moment like, "Hey, all these injury lawyers are spending all this money on our broadcast stations and our digital properties. Let me go down and start investigating this. This is something I want to do." So, I called up a couple guys in Mobile, Alabama, Green and Phillips, David Green and Wes Phillips, I think it's Wes. And they were nice enough to let me go down there and just spend a day or two with them, and see how they did things.
And I walked out of that meeting very appreciative of my time spent with them. But also thinking, "These guys are good dudes, good lawyers, and they're just like good people. That's something I'd like to do." So, I called up Moore. So, DePasquale Moore, DM, it's kind of like Burger King and BK I guess. And I said, "Meet me at a bar, we'll grab a beer." And we got a beer and I say, "Hey listen, I'm going to take my little referral-based firm and we'll start spending some money on TV commercials," because that was all I was really thinking at this point, it's 2013, "and start a law firm. Want to be partners?" He was a partner at another firm, he quits that firm. I didn't have a job, so I didn't have any risk. We sold the company and started up, and I don't even think we had a website day one.
This isn't that long ago. We're talking 10, 12 years ago, on a really small TV budget, zero digital budget. And I remember, man, I remember the first two calls were from the guy who cut my grass just, "Oh my God, I saw your commercial." And then our nanny, one of our kids' nannies, and I'm like, "I guess this works." But then I don't think I had a call for a week after that. So, I was freaking out. So, that's kind of the story of how we got to start this thing. It's probably different than most lawyers that do what we do.
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Grab your copy of Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing on Amazon, link is in the show notes. Back to the Ted Turner, the John Malone type of scenario where... So, did you learn the inner workings of how they negotiate spots, and pricing, and stuff like that? Did that help you negotiate when you partner up with Jason to go buy these spots?
Michael DePasquale:
Yeah. I grew up at TV station. I can remember when I was in middle school looking at Nielsen Logs ratings and transferring over by hand for one log to another. And I would hang out with the sales guy, thought they were the cool guys in the state. The sports guys and the sales guys were a cool guy. So, I'd hang out with them, and then I worked in that space. And when I was in the TV business, I was one of the lawyers for the company, but I also oversaw some properties, just due to my experience on the sales side of things. And I'm not the best in the world, but I know more, at least at the time, that I thought most lawyers did. And so that was definitely the driving force.
Chris Dreyer:
Another question, just on how you think about this. Is like the expansion, right? Kansas City, you're moving into multiple markets, you said yourself like, "Hey, it's capital intensive and the brand compounds over the year." So it's like, your economies and your case acquisition costs year three might be cheaper after that brand's established. So, how do you make that decision? Like we're going to go Kansas City. Kansas City and St. Louis are kind of... But like, into these other markets, like now you're all the way in the West in Colorado. And so, how did these decisions play in on expansion?
Michael DePasquale:
Yeah. So, kind of just going back to my past when I was a kid, because my dad was a general manager at a TV station, he had a little bit of sweat equity when he sold it and made some money. He took that money, this was in 1988, '89, and he didn't buy one single TV station in Wichita, Kansas. And that's where I spent most of my years growing up. Which I was born in Buffalo, New York, I moved to Wichita when I was nine. And he then, you'd take a station, you felt was under performing, he'd fix it up and then sell it. It was like a house flipper so to speak. So, he had that one station, they sold that. Then they had two stations, and then four stations et cetera. And when they sold the last company, I think they had, I think probably about 40 stations, and maybe 22, 23 markets.
So I saw a company, grew up with seeing a company operated from starting at one and growing. I saw a company operating from headquarters first in Wichita, Kansas, and eventually Kansas City, Missouri as a company group, where we could operate businesses using synergies and accounting, marketing, et cetera, from a home base, so it saves us money. But then I also saw, we weren't in all the sexiest television markets. We weren't in LA and New York. We were in cities like Wichita, Kansas, Little Rock, Arkansas, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Good cities, the good people, but not the big markets. So, I saw that you can run a viable business in what I would call small to medium markets. And that's where we've focused is the Kansas Cities, the Oklahoma Cities, the Wichitas, all the cities we're in now, St. Louis, those are good solid markets what we do.
None of them would be market, none of them would be in states that are labeled like home runs for the personal injury space. There's been great deals of torque form in all these states. There is good competition in all the states, like good homegrown competition too, and people from other markets. Like, I go to Oklahoma City for instance, although I spent a lot of my youth in Oklahoma, I have a house in Oklahoma. I am not from Oklahoma, but I'm licensed in Oklahoma. I literally spent two to three months a year every year there since I was 14, 15 years old. But I just know in those markets we can be successful. We don't have to be in the Los Angeleses of the world, the Phoenix, et cetera.
That'd be great. But to your point, imagine what the cost per acquisitions are in those markets. And as you know, in our market, sell over is through the roof. I mean, Wichita, Kansas, I dare anyone to find me a market that is more competitive than that market. It is hyper competitive with really good law firms in that city. And why? Because many years ago, Brad Pistotnik who's a really good personal injury lawyer, he started advertising in the phone book and on TV in the '89s, and other guys copied catted. And I decided, because I grew up there, I might as well put an office there. Well so far I'm wheeling money out in my front yard burning it and every... But we will make it work there I'm sure at some point.
Chris Dreyer:
I was intrigued you got an all trial attorney model, especially at this scale. So, I was just curious, this question always comes into play. You always hear like, "Oh, we're the pre-lit, or we're the trial lawyers." Now, you're a big advertiser. So, what goes into play for case selection, and these thresholds, and just how you think about that?
Michael DePasquale:
So, we do both. I've been told I'm crazy for litigating cases and I should just send them all out. I might be, I could be totally wrong. But to me it was important that we had people here. I worked doing litigation and trials in a big firm, representing big injury cases, and I really liked it, and I still do like it. And for me, I was like, when we first started the firm and I'm answering the phone, handle all the cases, cleaning the toilets, playing paralegal, being that CML, all that stuff, I was pre-lit. Where comp case came in, sure I'll figure it out. So, it was important to myself and Jason Moore, that we were going to have our own standalone litigation department.
We do have a pre-litigation department here, but we have a litigation department as well that's, I don't know, 10, 12, 14 lawyers. I think we're at 60s lawyers right now. That those folks in there are all experienced litigators, numerous trials under their belts, wins and losses. You can't win them all. Ego is not the right word. It was more of a pride thing. I wanted to have that department at my firm. And again, there's guys who are very successful, who I'm friends with who said, "You're crazy." And I haven't listened to them yet. We're going to keep litigating cases, we're going to keep trying cases. It's important to me. I think it makes for a well-rounded firm.
Chris Dreyer:
I 100% respect that. And that goes back to college days and you competing. And that's the way to compete in trials is a zero-sum game. There's a winner and a loser. So, I appreciate that. How do you think about finding good talent, recruiting good talent, keeping your A players just on that labor side?
Michael DePasquale:
Man, you know that is like any business out there. That's something that I'd thought about. When I thought about getting into this space, and the things that I thought were going to be my issues have not been my issues. And the things that I didn't even think about have been my issues. Like lawyers for instance. When I graduated from the University of Kansas Law School in 2006, we had about 165, 170 kids in my graduating class. They're down to about 120 per class, and that's intentional. And that's kind of been all the law schools we recruit some of them, have kind of declined in enrollment, but it was intentional. So, we're dealing with a smaller talent pool. Or I would say a smaller pool of lawyers than we were X amount of years ago. That's hard.
Being in the personal injury space, we do face the stigma of ambulance chaser. Because when I was in law school, I don't even if I knew what a personal injury law firm was. I wasn't cognizant really of that until I started working at a law firm and defending cases. And so I think there's still something, when you go to law school most places, your goal is to go work at the big white shoes law firm, get paid as much as you can, be able to brag to all your buddies, you're working at this firm or that firm. The firms that people are like, "Ooh," and they "aah." Well, the general public doesn't generally ooh and aah over you're working at a personal injury firm, because they just don't know any better. That it's a great job, you get to help people out. It's fun. I love coming to work every day.
I didn't love coming to work every day when I worked at the more traditional law firm, silk stockings, white shoes firm, whatever you want to call it. So it's hard for us to find lawyers. We've had to broaden and go to many different places. We've also pivoted what we do with a lot of our pre-lit lawyers, not as much the lit, is we like to hire people straight out of law school and train them, as opposed to hiring lateral hires. I'm not saying a lateral hire won't work because I was technically a lateral hire. But we feel like if we... And we also increased what we pay our first year lawyers. We wanted to get in, but we were competing with the silk stockings firms for those attorneys.
So, we as far as I know, pay our lawyer our first, and second, third year associate types, more than they would get at most personal injury law firms out of the gate. I don't make it out of the gate as much of an eat what you kill model, that kind of develops later as you've been around a while. I don't want to chase people away after six months because they're worried their salaries going to go to 25% what it was after their first year. So, that is nail in the head for me, it's my biggest challenge. Is people, I don't care what business you're in, it's the people, the people, the people. You know that. I mean, you guys have really built up what you guys do, and you went and brought in experts in other areas. And I think that's great of you guys to do that.
Chris Dreyer:
Thank you, thank you. Everyone thinks they have great people in the beginning. And then you get 20 people, and you get 100 people. And then your standards continue to rise. And then we're all searching for those definite A players. And then, what an A player was in the past, that generalist that can do everything when you become more specialized isn't an A player anymore. So, yeah, that's the biggest challenge.
Michael DePasquale:
When you mention that, well, I have determined that one of our biggest A players was an A player in some things, but like a C player in others, and you're talking to them. I learned a lot about myself as the firm grew. I thought that I literally was an expert at everything. And as we grew, I realized, I was just an idiot for thinking. It's a fool. Anyone who thinks they know everything's a fool. There's some things that I think I'm pretty decent at, but there's a whole lot of things that I'm not great at. And there's probably ones I think I'm good at now, and again, I'm not good at it.
And I've been able to hire people who are a lot better and really good at the things I'm weak at. And I think that's been a huge for us is, not wearing these many hats, and be able to do what I'm good at. And then the things that I'm not good at, get people in who are really good at that. But it's not easy to do. It's hard. And as you said, things change. Departments change. What was once worked in measure, your bookkeeping role, your firm grows. You don't need a bookkeeper anymore, you need a controller, and then you need a CFO and a controller, and things change.
Chris Dreyer:
You got involved. That's the name of the game. And like you said, the controller to CFO. At the beginning I just thought, "Hey, you had a director of finance. They cover it all. But oh, this controller and capacity and utilization, what's this?"
Michael DePasquale:
You got to rely on those people too and trust them. You can't like meddle in everything. Because you're a founder of a business like I am. There's some, a little bit of a pull to get in there and dig around. And it's going to let good people do good things and think that's important.
Chris Dreyer:
Mike brought us a rare view of legal marketing for both sides of the fence. From running TV stations, to building a multi-state law firm. His focus on mastering the fundamentals while staying humble enough to know what you're not great at, that's the kind of insight that helps firms grow. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. Thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
