Chris Dreyer:
Last year, something incredible happened in Scottsdale. The biggest names in personal injury law came together to share what's actually working in their firms. It was an event like no other.
I'm thrilled to announce that PIMCon is returning this October, and this year we're doing something a little different. We're reserving one speaker spot for someone from our community. Maybe that's you. Maybe it's someone you know who's doing amazing things in personal injury. Apply today. The link is in the show notes.
I'm Chris Dreyer, founder of Rankings.io, and this episode of Personal Injury Mastermind, I want to share three game-changing talks from last year that show exactly why PIMCon is different from any other legal conference. First up is Amanda Demanda. She shares her exact formula to build an unforgettable brand.
Amanda Demanda:
I was a good attorney. I could try the hell out of a case. I know my community, and I had a lot of determination, but I found myself not knowing exactly how to start to market myself in the PI industry. And then it hit me, as four years of being an attorney and three years of being in law school really erased all my creativity.
You see, before I was an attorney, I was in marketing, and I did marketing for a lot of different companies, but I did marketing for one company that arguably is the most saturated, the most regulated, and the most difficult to advertise. Yes, that's right. I ran a big tobacco company's marketing department. I did print ads nationwide, and I did $3 million booth trade shows in Vegas. Given the constraints of that industry, how can I not advertise myself now that I was actually doing good for the people?
So I took upon this task. I embarked on a critical analysis of the unique challenges that we face as personal injury attorneys. And I say unique because we really do have an uphill battle, and we have to be creative. So I developed a formula to combat and conquer each one of these challenges.
You see, like tobacco, we are regulated in what we could say, we are highly competitive, and we are a saturated market. However, we are also an intangible product. So our clients cannot see us, touch us, feel us whenever they want. And we are also a industry that requires for something to happen before you need our services, so we have an unpredictable demand. The timing and need is not always there. You can see a commercial for McDonald's, and they keep putting the commercial, and then you're like, "I'm just going to buy the french fries." Well, they can't just buy our service whenever they want. So that's a unique thing, we have an unpredictable demand.
We also are a very unpleasant subject matter, and people much rather ignore what we do and that we exist until they need us, and they're coming to us in a vulnerable state. And let's not forget, one of the biggest things, there's a deep-seated issue with attorneys in our culture. We're not trusted. There's skepticism. So knowing all these things, it quickly became clear to me that we are selling people a person and not a product.
And when you're selling a person, what we needed to do is have other people be the source that amplifies that person. You see, we need people to follow the person, consume the person, and trust the person. So since the inception of building my brand, I knew that one thing needed to be established in my vision, and the focus was always embracing me unapologetically, and then Amanda Demanda was born.
To get this vision from paper to reality, however, did require this formula I developed. And it's important that you understand how it all fit in and how it worked for me. Each of these steps not only helps my law firm, has helped my law firm to have a very unique appeal, but it also has helped me conquer all the challenges that we face.
First, I always say align with a target audience. Identifying a target audience, not the masses, is crucial. Not every injured person will be your client. And I hear this all the time, "Well, who do you want to call, or who do you want to appeal to?" "Well, every injured person." Well, that's not true. They're not all going to call you, and you don't appeal to everyone. So instead of falling into the trap of casting a wide net and running out of money without making a real impact, you should think the opposite. You should really hone in on a group that you'll appeal to, be calculated, be intentional, and speak to them in your community. People who align with your values, your morals, the way you live will easily come to you. And by choosing the correct people, you will encounter a path of least resistance.
I accomplished this by embracing my heritage. I am a first-generation Cuban-American, born and raised in Miami. Spanish is my first language. The native speakers in Miami know me. They embrace me. They're proud of me. They see me as that first college graduate, she's pushing for better, and they will trust me to represent them. So they naturally connect with me. This target audience would see me as one of their own. They wouldn't just accept me. They would actually choose me in a moment of tragedy.
So by narrowing this small captive audience, you really lessen your competition at the entry point to the market. And this is important because we all need a foundation and a base to build from. So if you ignore that, it makes it a lot more difficult to then have those client testimonials, connections, big cases, and things of that nature that you could use to later enter other markets by having already a success story to tell.
So interestingly enough, I not only targeted the Hispanic community, but I started with the middle-aged abuelitas and abuelos. First off, they're the ones listening to AM radio, all I could afford in the beginning, and they also like to watch the Spanish TV and the cheesy stuff, which is the level of production I could afford at that time, and they really made an impact. But most importantly, they're also the person that slips and falls at the supermarket and fractures their hip. So without saying much, I knew I was reaching a target audience that would fill in. They would trust me, and it would bring you some valuable cases. Later on, oddly enough, and I'll tell you a story about how that foundation became then my entry point to other markets and other demos.
We started getting a lot of young 20-some-year-olds in Uber and Lyft cases and accidents. When we asked them, where did you hear of us, they said, "Well, I got home. And I said, I was in an accident, and my abuela said, 'You still haven't called Amanda?'" So it naturally progressed, and they were my number one cheerleaders and really my number one advocate. So finding that foundation will really help you conquer the challenge of the highly competitive and saturated market because, in that audience, in that small community, you are their person.
Now, once you align with this audience, you know how to speak to them, which brings me to my second point, simplify your message and make it pop. So, while it's very tempting for us to all say, "As attorneys, I only handle catastrophic injuries," I've heard this so many times as lawyer talk, our audience, people who are not attorneys, don't understand that. And that type of language, even though we think and makes us seem, "Oh, I know how to handle the big stuff," really makes them not want to call you because they don't think, "Maybe my case is not as catastrophic. Maybe they're not going to want to handle my stuff."
And I think that one thing we can all agree in this room is that we much rather get that call and decide whether we want to keep that case or not. So, be simple, speak simply. It is better to always have a message that's simple. I know we get tired of saying what we do, but no one else is going to save it for you. So you have to keep it simple.
So I accomplished keeping my message very simple by changing my name, so Demanda, or Demanda, because my name's not Amanda, it's Amanda. It was really a no-brainer for me. You see, in Spanish, the word "demanda" means, "I demand on your behalf," but it's not my maiden name, and it's not my married name. And having a vision and being committed to it really goes beyond you as a person. You have to create yourself into a persona.
So in many cultures, and at least in mine, when women get married, as I did, we take on our husband's last name. So why wouldn't I also change it for my profession, which is what I do, and for the good of the people, I want them to find me simply and easily. We don't have to be born because we are attorneys. Actors change their names to be more recognized or easily found. So Amanda Demanda, I said, was born. And because it simply answers a question, it's like, "Amanda demands on your behalf, Amanda sues on your behalf, Amanda fights on your behalf," then we kind of did the whole campaign as to ask me a question and I answer it. Accident? Amanda Demanda. It's usually accidente? Amanda Demanda. But it could say divorce on there if I ever wanted to pivot, and it would say Amanda Demanda.
In fact, we get calls for all type of cases, and we send them out to our referral networks. So it really has held by simplifying the message, you want to simplify it to the point that people can pronounce it and say it. Some of us have very complicated last names, and people don't know how to pronounce them. So even something like your name, you may have to be able to part ways with. And I was fine with doing that, because I'm that committed to my brand.
Next, I knew that the name needed to stand out, so we went with the color pink. Pink, under the guidelines of marketing, is an urgent color. As I studied marketing, some of you may know that colors like red and orange, they're urgent colors. They call to action quicker, that's why fast foods have those colors. The emergency room has those colors. Colors like blue, sage, lavender are used more for spas or things that are calming in nature. So I wanted a vibrant color that was urgent, and the pink did that. I also knew that nobody in my direct market or my competitors weren't using that color. I'm also woman-owned, so I was like, "What the hell? Let's use that." And my Hispanic community, they love bright colors. I mean, us Hispanics will put color on everything that we could, so I knew that they would embrace it.
So with my target audience in mind, I wasn't afraid to make that connection. You see, we're talking about a different market. Maybe pink is associated with breast cancer awareness and things of that nature, but the Hispanic community really had no attachment to it. And even if it's a serious thing, they would paint it in some bright color. So it was fine, but it worked for me. So that's what we did.
Chris Dreyer:
Next is Bob Simon. With venture capital flooding and illegal marketing, Bob shows why personal relationships are more valuable than ever.
Bob Simon:
Most of all of my business is referrals from other lawyers. I don't do direct-to-consumer marketing. I get almost all my cases from social media, from personal relationships, from brand building. And I think that's the most critical thing that we should be doing right now because, let's face it, there's a lot of private equity coming into this space. There's a lot of venture capital coming into this space. The marketing opportunity for lawyers is going to be gobbled up by people that have way too much money that we will not be able to compete. So how can we compete as lawyers, as law firms?
I think the most critical thing that we all should be doing and be cognizant about is you, as a lawyer, you are a brand. These marketing law firms, they're going to want to work with somebody that they like, that is accessible, that is a really good fucking lawyer. And you should be able to tell people you're a really good lawyer with honesty and be within your niche, something you love to do, and build off of that.
It's a lot easier now to start your firm than it was when I did 15 years ago. It's a lot less expensive. There's hardly any overhead. With some simple, smart things that I'll show you, you can compete. If you're your own brand, you as a lawyer can get a percentage of every case you're working on or that you're referring to another lawyer to work on, that you are co-counseling on. Be in the mindset that every opportunity that you have can be monetized if you have a law license, or in Arizona, if you're an ABS, you can pretty much give referral fee to anybody. But that's a thought process. So use your McLovin license here to get some lovin' on case opportunities and do this. So this is going to some tactical stuff.
I'm a big, big believer in what I say, pursuing your passion. I know an immigration lawyer, and she's the kind of lawyer that is literally on the border helping people. It's a thankless job. She doesn't get paid well, but how does she make money as a lawyer? She generates so many leads through her immigration clients that she monetizes them through referrals. Two or three years ago, when I first explained to her that she can make referral fees, she had no idea. This year, she'll make over a million dollars just on referral fees by building a network to monetize this community that she already has.
So as you go through this process, and I tell people when they start their own firm or who they want to be, is write down the lawyer that you want to be, the things that you love to do, and that is your goal, that is your mission statement. If you're doing things every day and it is not aligned with those two things, outsource that shit. Get somebody else to do it, because somebody else is just as passionate about motion writing, somebody else is just as passionate about operations, your law firm. They can do all those things for you.
But I like to think of it this way, is that you should be able to find your client, their Messi or their Swift, their Taylor Swift attorney, the best of the best at what they do. I don't do employment. I don't do wage and hour. I don't do criminal. I don't do bankruptcy, but I know the best lawyers that do. And my mission is, if somebody calls my office, I'm going to find them the best lawyer for them. And you've earned the right as a lawyer, and you're building your brand, your goodwill. You've earned the right to take a referral fee for that as well. Don't be hesitant to ask. Both sides of people will appreciate it because they'll get a referral without having to do a marketing cost.
So when you're doing firm structure, everybody sees these law firms that are named after a street or a directional place. It's actually smart because you're building a brand. Don't name your firm something really dumb like Dumbass and McVale, right? Baird Dumass and Ken McVale, these are actually real people. There's one that's in Northern California defense firm that's called Lion and Cheatham. Seriously, that's called Lion and Cheatham. They had to put those people together. But when you pick a name, pick something that's easy to remember.
My first job was at a firm called Lederer, Nojima, Tagliaferro & LoPresti. It's a lot of words. A lot of guys just wanted their name on a firm. The email address was @LNTLB.com. Do you know how many fucking times I had to spell this to somebody phonetically? I go to the clerk, "L as in Larry, N as..." Come on. Mine's just now Justice Team. That's pretty easy to remember, right? Pick something that somebody's going to be able to make that contact. Remember immediately who you are, what you do, and how easy they can find you. Don't do LNTLB. That probably lost me so much money.
But when I started my firm, we had to bring in phone lines. We had to bring in hard office structures. Now you can run an entire virtual office from your smartphone, from anywhere. A lot less expensive to do things now, but one of the biggest things, as you build your referral networks, as you build yourself as a lawyer to be better, is you have to have a community. You have to have mentorship.
A lot of people are in masterminds and all these things. Put yourself in the room. Don't be shy about it, but find yourself to get into mentorship. It doesn't matter if you're like Deidre Hayes, who's in Indiana. I said, "You got to go talk to Alex Limontes. He knows how to litigate and try cases. She wants to start a PI brand." This is who you need to talk to. There's a lot of lawyers out there that will help you. A lot of lawyers or people that are on Instagram, if you slide into their DMs, what's the worst thing that can happen? They don't get back to you. Best thing that can happen, they get back to you and help you for free. A lot of people are selfless, and they want to engage and want to help.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's face it, being a great lawyer isn't enough to succeed. You need to generate consistent leads. Personal injury is the most saturated niche. Competition is fierce, and differentiation is everything. When the deck is stacked against you, you need a comprehensive resource to beat the competition. My latest book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing, is your roadmap to consistent leads and exponential growth. It is a masterclass on marketing for personal injury firms. It's packed with actionable strategies on where to invest your marketing dollars for maximum impact. No more guesswork, no more wasted ad spend, just clear, proven methods to transform your firm from good to go. Grab your copy of Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing on Amazon. Link is in the show notes.
Bob Simon:
When I started my firm, 2010, I tried three cases that year by myself. I brought in my twin brother to help operate the firm, but it almost killed me because I was out there trying to operate this new firm I started, trying these three cases, away from the office, trying to generate business, and it was terrible. I asked my wife, we're eating ramen tuna noodles every night because we were trying to survive, just to make the office rent and stuff like that.
But then I learned something, at the end of that year, is I could split fees for the lawyers. I was like, "You need to tell me. I could bring in..." I brought in Brian Panish to try a case the next year. I was like, "You mean I could bring in Brian Panish for 50% of the fee, and he's going to carry all the costs and spend the $200,000 to get this to trial? And I'll get to sit next to him and try the case?"
We hit that verdict for $9 million and got paid. I was like, "Holy shit." The client got a way better result than I think I probably could've at that time in my career. Somebody else carried the cost for me, so I was able to use and save that money to reinvest, got an associate, got operations help, but within the firm. And I learned so much from that trial, and I actually plagiarized the out of his PowerPoint, and I still do a lot of the stuff in my closing that he does. He says I owe him a royalty fee, but we'll see about that.
So whenever you're thinking about how you're going to drum up business, if you're in the personal injury space, I like to think about what we call intermediary referral sources. Who is in your circle that can get you buckets of cases within your specialty?
I used to go door-to-door to chiropractors to say, "Hey, can we help refer you cases? And if you have cases, can you affirm to us?" I used to sit outside where the orthopedic surgeons on call at Cedars, after the trauma call, where they would go for drinks afterwards. And I'm still good friends with those individuals, and they still send me cases to this day, but that was the hustle.
Now, it's a lot easier because you could do things a lot more digitally. You can go to LinkedIn, you can start conversations that way. But these are the relationships that you want to build because, again, people will want to work with you because they like you. But intermediary things, chiropractors, every lawyer that you went to law school with, they could probably send you cases.
When I graduated from Pepperdine in Malibu, I paid somebody $12 an hour to find all of their emails to go on the state bar website. I got the list. They pulled all their emails, and I just started emailing them and saying, "Hey, I pay for referral fees. I just started my firm." I still get cases to this day from other lawyers that I went to law school with. If you're starting your firm, if you're letting it grow, I'll source all the shit you don't want to do because then you can grow and you get to co-share them stuff that you love.
Why I started my firm? I love being out there. I love bringing in cases. I love talking to my clients, and I like trying cases. That's all I do at my firm now. That's it. I don't do anything after the case is signed. We have a team for that. We all have the litigation teams do their thing. I'll come and consult on a trial that I'm getting closer to try. I've one in two days. I actually got to check my phone because they're trying to settle with the judge right now, but it might be picking a jury tomorrow afternoon, we shall see. But that's what I love to do, and I'm prepared to do that. All the other stuff I outsourced, and it makes me a lot happier, and I end up making more money and have a higher quality of life because I structured it that way.
Chris Dreyer:
Our final speaker is Dave Thomas from Law Tigers. His approach to community engagement is backed by hard data, showing how authentic community involvement drives real case value.
Dave Thomas:
It's not about you. Rainmaker flying, I love it. Recovered billions, private jets, houses all over the country, the public, your potential client don't care about that. You guys hear me say this all the time, and I'll keep saying, I'll keep screaming from the mountaintops, that people do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. Your marketing should be less about you and more about them. If you're making yourself the hero of your story, then you got it all wrong. Who should be the hero of your story? Your target audience. That's what we do at Law Tigers.
See, the truth is that the public do not trust most lawyers. And personally, I think they have it all wrong because the majority of attorneys, you guys are rock stars. However, your marketing sometime doesn't reflect truly who you are because we're re keeping up with the Joneses, right? We have that formal fear of missing out. So we're kind of watching what this firm is doing, what this other firm is doing, and then we end up portraying maybe a missed message of really who I am at the core. Trust is earned, it is never given. So how do you do that? You have to meet people exactly where they're at. It's all about people.
At Law Tigers, we're America's motorcycle lawyers. We are ingrained in the communities, stretched across the country in 33 states. A big push of what we do is called our grassroots marketing. We have market managers all over the country. They're visiting tow companies, park stores, dealerships. They're at local rallies, they're at children's shelters, they're at hospitals. This is a collage of non-actors, ladies and gentlemen. These are Law Tigers members going out there, winning friends, and influencing people. Well, first thing you want to do is become a legal resource, right?
And next, you want to organize these workshops. This is stuff you can take. I'm going to take time here, okay? Do these workshops. You can cover topics on insurance. You can cover topics on financial loss, or work with startup companies or businesses, nonprofits. And also, please, do not ignore your social media platforms on LinkedIn.
All right, next, we want to partner and collaborate. What we want to do is sponsor local companies, community events. We want to really join forces with entrepreneurs and startups in your local market. They need you, they need your guidance, they need your leadership. And let's not ignore civic engagement as well. Find out what's really important to your community, pressing needs and concerns.
So next, what we want to do is give back and showcase our commitment, okay? "How we do that, Dave?" Thanks for asking. What we like to do is you want to partner with local charities. Fundraise your events. Choose these events on what your attorneys and employees are passionate about, because you want them to be involved and educate, educate, educate. It pains me. I speak to attorneys across the country, tons of them, and they said, "Well, Dave, they never have proper insurance and all this stuff." And I'm like, "Well, what have you done to change that?" That's what these workshops are for. Let's talk about it.
Relevant to the community, financial literacy, what do you do after an accident? So community is more than checking the box. I'm going to piss some people off with this slide, but I had to put it in there. So, first of all, full disclosure, there's a lot of firms that's doing this correct way. So if you're giving out turkeys, if you're giving out backpacks, don't sit their messenger. But this is where I have a problem.
When we are just seasonal community members, when we just focus on the time to help out a need, right? Passing out turkeys at school, going back to school, giving away backpacks, and I think the toy drives are on the holidays. I mean, that's all fine and dandy, but it has to be a commitment all year long. This has to be a fabric of your firm. You have to be committed to the community. I mean, anyone can go out and go buy turkeys and handle things out, take a picture, and then get back on social media and say, "Hey, look what I did for the community." I really feel that, as community leaders and attorneys, you guys are leaders, we look up to you, man, we really do.
Get out in front of the community, find out why they can't afford turkeys, or an oven to bake them in. Find out why they can't afford a damn backpack for their child. Support those initiatives. Teach them how to put resumes together to go out there and work, to get gainful employment, so you don't have to give them shit. That's the type of commitment that we're honoring.
So next, what we want to do is measure and listen to feedback. Because after we do all this stuff, we don't want to just throw spaghetti against the wall and hope that it sticks. Right? So you want to track your engagement, track your attendance, web traffic, your initiatives. We do this through HubSpot, and we also use Salesforce as well. Okay? And so what does this help you do? It helps you kind of refine your approach of what's working, what's not, and what you need to continue. All right, so let's make sure we track it. So you, analytical folks, let's jump through the numbers.
All right, so grassroots activity last year and this year, date span, we're in 33 states, as I mentioned earlier, close to 1,500 cities, close to 2,900 shops, close to 4,300 events. So last year activity, we have close to 3,700 shop and club visits, total events supported, close to 2,600. Let's look at the results.
So last year, 2023, lead attribution, yeah, 65%, which combines digital, traditional referrals, and a whopping 35% for grassroots. Our sales funnel, well, the viable is at 44%. Our conversion is over 90%. That's always a good thing. And our average fees is about 34,000, which is much, much higher than the automobile cases. That's why you want to diversify with the motorcycle practice. We'll talk about that later.
So this year's activity, total shop over 5,700. It's a lot of shop visits. This is across the country. Total events reported, close to 1,700. I'm rounding up. So lead attribution, 64%, very close, 36% for grassroots. Our viable is 44%, conversion, 93%, and our average fee crept up to 36,000. Okay? The numbers don't lie. Proofs in the pudding, guys. Trying to get some range on this.
All right, so how to incorporate this thing? This is what I talked about earlier. So this is pretty clever, I think it's pretty cool. So for your small and mid-sized firms, large firms use this as well. But if you're small and mid-sized, you say, "Hey guys, I don't have the manpower. If some of these larger firms have, Dave, we're not in 33 states," but this is what I want you to do. I want you to take advantage of your resources that you do have and ask the employees that's part of your firm. Right? Encourage employee participation. Build quarterly team bonding events out in the community. We do this at Law Tigers. We'll go feed the homeless. We're actually signed up to do the Special Olympics, and then we're required to do two on our own. That's our passion that we are about giving back to the community. And these are paydays, by the way.
So we really encourage this, recognize and celebrate these achievements. Put this into your in-year evals. I know you guys probably work off of KPIs or goals. If you don't, you probably should incorporate that. This is part of the KPIs for your team members. But again, find out what they're passionate about, and they're going to be in the community. And they're going to love it because now they feel like you're listening to them and say it for them about what's going on around the community and that's how you can tailor your events and your outreach.
So this is the grassroots marketing pyramid. We're lawyers. First thing we want to do, we want to engage. Actively involve yourselves and your community. Next, what we want to do is be an advocate. Be a champion of your brand and your commitment to the community. Be the resource. Be the resource. Next, we want to collaborate together in partnership with our community. Then we want to educate, here comes the educate word again. We have to educate because you can bring fish to people, and they're going to eat. But how about we teach them how to fish? We have to equip them with the right knowledge and information, that's going to empower them. And last but not least, we want to sustain, baby. We don't want all this hard work that we've committed to go away. So that's your commitment, long-term community relations.
Chris Dreyer:
There you have it, just a taste of what PIMCon delivers. If you're ready to share your expertise with the PI community, the application link for our community, your spot, is in the show notes. Can't wait to see you in Scottsdale this October. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer. Thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
