Austin Kurtz:
Brian Riley and I teamed up at the start of the year. We thought the community would take care of us. People would send us cases and we'd be okay, but not like this.
Chris Dreyer:
Today's guest launched their firm just a year ago and they're already on a growth trajectory rocket ship
Austin Kurtz:
Every month. We think we figure it out. It's twice as much as what we thought it was.
Chris Dreyer:
Austin Kurtz is taking a completely different approach to marketing and operations than what you typically see.
Austin Kurtz:
I think our advantage is we're very leading edge of use of tech.
Chris Dreyer:
We dive deep into the referral network strategy, their unique approach to staffing and how they're systematizing everything to scale efficiently. Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where ambitious attorneys come to learn, implement, and get results. I'm your host Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, SEO Agency of Choice for elite personal injury law firms. Austin's open about their processes. He shares exactly how they're building their firm for the future while handling explosive growth right now. Let's dive in.
Austin Kurtz:
We're constantly trying to shape into the growth and I think our advantage is we're constantly utilizing efficient systems to make our files move. I change our Filevine once a week, like, "Hey, this would be a more efficient way to do this," or, "Hey, we should send this email 10 days in. Let's auto set it up. Let's just be 1% better."
Chris Dreyer:
You mention Filevines. You combo and lead docket with Filevine, these operational efficiencies. Let's dive into that.
Austin Kurtz:
We use Filevine linked up with Lead Docket. Lead Docket integrates with a of our referral partners, so their leads are hot pushed to it. We get leads from a bunch of other attorneys including through attorney share, which is Bob's stuff. We have all our phones are Dialpad. Dialpad has AI transcription of the phones. We're currently building a drop from AI transcription of the phone straight into the file when a call finishes. So I'll be able to have a parallel hit, a case made to call the note auto populates and that we look at it and go. We're starting to work with one of our buddies. Farage is forming a company called Finch, which is doing minting software. And then Instagram and we kind of just put out weird fun content that we enjoy doing and we sort of direct our social towards mostly lawyers. I think for the most part we don't have a straight push towards growing with the general public. Yeah, we're just kind of growing a lawyer base, because I think that's who we relate with and really that's our heading push right now is referral work.
Chris Dreyer:
Growth comes with challenges and one of the challenges is staffing up and getting bodies to handle the growth. How are you handling the labor challenges?
Austin Kurtz:
We have a company called Solvo, which has Colombian paralegals. They are amazing. They graduated law school in Colombia. And they are very, very, very good at what they do. And they're bilingual, which is a huge thing in Arizona especially. We've sourced some work from there. And that's kind of a backstop. Any time we have an area of growth that we think we have leers in the home office in that position that can help scale with that, we use that to scale. We've had a lot of success, just kind of people... Almost everyone we've hired has been people who have kind of come to us and been like, "Man, you guys seem like that'd be a great place to work. We'd love to come work with you." And we're like, "All right, let's start Monday." And they're kind of like, "What do you mean?" We're like, "I don't know, what can you do? How can you handle it?" We kind of find spaces for them.
It's been a really natural growth. Our goal has never been, "Hey, let's be X big." It's just kind of natural and find pressure points and grow. When I moved back to Arizona our office manager at my old commercial for Aiken Shake where I first started doing personal entry. Aiken Shake closed in COVID, but Kathleen was our office manager there. And we hired her as kind of like a COO role here. And she is excellent at running law firms and building them. We're trying to get to the point that we can focus on what we do best. At the end of the day, we are very good at practicing law and that's what we want to do.
Chris Dreyer:
And man, I appreciate the candor, the transparency. Like hey, you're wearing a lot of hats. You want to get to this where your passion is and what you want to do, but right now you're willing to do whatever it takes.
On the case selection criteria. Just talk to me about how you think about the cases that come in. What's qualified? Which ones you're going to litigate? Just talk to me about that in general.
Austin Kurtz:
Our heavy focus right now is referral work. The benefit is they're already pretty pre-qualified, right? They're kind of already gone through a bunch of steps and so it's not like I'm getting random calls off the street from someone who's in a car wreck and they're like, "Oh, it was my fault. That means I'm not allowed to get compensation." It's usually pretty clear liability cases. And then from a damage perspective, as long as they're close in time for the accident and these people want to get healthy and go to treatment, I'm going to look at that case. I don't need six figure cases out the gate all the time. When I will say is with litigation, we are really focused on getting our clients the best level of care that they can get. And that means getting them compensated fairly. And so a lot of these insurance companies will go and make low ball offers that are below medical bills.
And we've taken a stance inside the firm that if it's a clear liability case and you're going to make an offer below medical bills, just tell us so and file the complaint. We're just going to go straight into litigation. And we've done that on every case that has happened. I don't think insurance companies actually have a problem paying fairly on cases. I think insurance companies are doing risk assessment. They're like, "These people aren't actually going to sue." And so it's really important that people appreciate if our name's on there we will sue.` And if we sue and they're going to low ball us we'll go as long as it takes to go. And if that means they're going to force us to try a new case, that's awesome. We want to please give us more opportunities to do that.
Chris Dreyer:
Your dad, a lawyer advised you against becoming an attorney. So yeah, here you are running a thriving PI firm. So how did you get the law from your initial path?
Austin Kurtz:
My dad. He's like, "Look, you can find a way to make money anywhere. But this, it's stressful. It's not the right return. It's not where you want to go." And I went to business school and then straight into law school and I was kind of like, "I guess we'll see. I'll see if this is what I really want to do." And I fell in love with it somewhere along the way. Tried to just quit it a few times, but I found my way eventually.
Chris Dreyer:
You started with commercial lit and you mentioned that you did want to quit at a few moments. And what kind of swayed you to now where you have this deep passion for it?
Austin Kurtz:
I really wanted to go into sports law. I live and die on my sports teams. And it sucks that I'm from Arizona, because that hurts me all the time. They lose all the time. But I wanted to do sports law. And I went to UCLA to be a sports agent. Wrote my honors thesis on it. And senior year of college, by the time I finished the thesis I'm like, "I have no interest. This is just a terrible thing." The agency was so dirty and I talked to an agent and I was like, "If you could do it again, would you?" And he's like, "I don't know." And he was the top of the game and I'm like if this guy doesn't know if he wants to do it then I don't know that I can do it.
A lawyer back here in Phoenix, Ty Taber was a family friend and Ty was looking for an associate. And he's like, "Hey, come cut your salary in half and come chase ambulances." And I came and I got thrown on to a really hard wrongful death case against the state of Arizona that people told me not to take in a case that everyone said wasn't winnable. And five years later we settled it at trial for $1.6 million. Got a great result for the family and it changed the whole way that I do everything. That made me fall in love with what I was doing and really have a passion for it. It changed everything. I never said since then it's been this is what I do, this is who I am.
Chris Dreyer:
So talk to me about that dynamic. You and Brian. Are you friends from back in the day? Did you work together? What's the roles look like? Are you more on the revenue side and he's on the ops? How do you split the duties between you and Brian?
Austin Kurtz:
We were kind of put in a group chat with a bunch of younger guys. And we all went to events and kind of built in the market. All PI guys doing different elements. At the time I was doing a lot of product liability litigation. Every event I went to Brian Riley is sitting there. Everywhere we went it was like, "Damn, you're here again." We've been friends for a couple of years or a year and kind like casual business friends. Travis Davis and Roddy Muñoz went and hit that $2 million verdict or a signed a law group and they were going to Doric. And Brian was like, "Hey, let's go to Doric and Cabo." I just had a kid and I was like, "Dude, there's no way." And they hit that verdict and I called, I was like, "Hey, we got to go to Cabo. We got to figure out what the hell these guys are drinking in the water. We need to figure it out."
So we went out and hung out with the boys. And on that flight we were like, "Hey, if we ever did this ourselves what would this look like and how would it go?" We started talking through it and we're like, "Yeah, maybe we could." And I remember Nick Rowley was giving a presentation. And he's like, "Look over to the person next to you and say something that is vulnerable." And I'm like, "We could do this. We could totally do this." And that was kind of a click moment for us. And then it grew.
As far as our duties, honestly both of us really appreciate we are a startup. Sometimes we just got to shovel the shit. It doesn't matter who's shoveling. We'll flip between us and whoever's in the line of fire. Some days he's just getting it and I'm like, "All right, I'll go handle this issue." And we're both just kind of dogs. We're just barnyard dogs that'll fight our way out of anything and we do it together to kind of whatever needs to get done, we get done. Currently a push is I'm kind of manning our lit team and he's manning our pre-lit team as we build both those structures. The ultimate goal is that we have the whole system built and Brian and I just get to try cases. We get the biggest 25 cases and Brian and I work them together.
Chris Dreyer:
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You and Brian's your passions. And you mentioned right out of the gate you had that wrongful death five years. And people didn't think you should take it. And you stuck with it. And you had the grit. And you mentioned, "Hey, we want to file. We want to go to trial." So what comes with developing this litigation experience that you have? How do you think about growing as a litigator and where does this passion stem from?
Austin Kurtz:
A lot of the Arizona trial lawyers are older. Some of my best friends in the practice of law in Arizona are men in their 60s or 70s. Any of the great, great trial lawyers you talk to are like, "I'm always getting better. I'm always learning." I just want to be the best we can and just keep trying to find a way to find new results. And it's kind of a Rubik's cube of like, "Oh, we haven't tried this route. Let's try this." So much of what we do is very systematic, so when you find something that works, it's, "Oh, that's a new chisel. Keep going down that way that one works." Building the systems with those as they go along. And Brian goes back to his football roots. He starts calling plays in the war house over here. We call it the front house half the time, but we're in path of frat house to firm. That's quick 3k on himself.
Chris Dreyer:
That's funny. I love the competitive side. I mean it brings out the mess of you guys. Another thing I'd like to touch on, seen the Arizona ABS. Thoughts on that, on how that's impacting Arizona as a whole. Jeez, I think... What were they in the seventies of the alternative business structures? And only one was employment based. At least last I checked, there's probably more now. How is that impacting Chase acquisition in Arizona?
Austin Kurtz:
Yeah, ABSs are crazy. I'm one of the few people I think that encourages it. I think it heightens the level of competition amongst lawyers. And I think that's good. I think that that will ultimately result in a better product for the clients. If there's more competition, the clients will be better. You would probably have as much opinion on it as anyone. But traditionally the advertising way of getting cases if you look at Arizona there's a pretty low bar to clear. And some people have done really well and that's how they did it. And now there's people bringing structures from... Brian was working in Morgan's Arizona office out here and that's not an ABS, but people are moving to Arizona, because they realize there is going to be money pushed in here and we're the first ones doing this structure.
Chris Dreyer:
This ABS discussion touches on something bigger that every firm owner needs to be thinking about. The legal industry is changing faster than ever, whether you're in Arizona or not. Regulatory changes at some point are coming to your state. Think about it. We're seeing AI transforming document review and intake, non-lawyer ownership reshaping firm structures and alternative fee arrangements becoming more common. The firms that will thrive in 2025 and beyond are the ones building adaptable foundations right now.
Austin Kurtz:
With that we're going to have to be better. We're going to have to practice better. The lawyers are going to have to be better. They're going to have to keep closer attention. Also better lawyers, more money, better verdicts. Better verdicts, that helps everyone. I mean every time my colleagues get a big verdict in Arizona, I'm like, "Hell yeah, let's go." I mentioned Bob earlier, but the guys coming to Arizona, I'm their biggest fan being here. I'm like, "Yeah, bring them all. Bob, get the whole team licensed out here. I want all you guys trying cases in Arizona, because that's good for everyone." It's changing everything though. I mean Arizona is truly the wild west that the second part of that ABS structure is yes, non-lawyers can own law firms. And that's all people think about.
But the second part of that is anyone can get a referral fee in Arizona now. You don't have to be a lawyer to get a referral fee. That is going to change the legal dynamic completely. Bar press from bartenders getting referral fees. And barbers getting referral fees. And where does that go and how do you stretch that and how do you connect your community? It allows, while there is more pressure than ever of big money competing, there's also more ability than ever for grassroots fighting. I mean, that's our whole thing is we're the local guys that just love Arizona and here to practice law. And I think that's going to take us a long way because we appreciate the changing dynamic and just leaning into it. So I'm a big fan of it. I'm a big fan of the law changes. I think it makes really unique opportunities. And so many lawyers are relying on referral network. Why not be able to give that love back a little bit?
Chris Dreyer:
I think the competition's good. I think it brings out better lawyers and higher verdicts. And I think everyone wins the consumer, so I appreciate that. So I'm on the same page as you. Even though I don't have an ABS and who knows. It might be in the future. Very well may be, but.
Austin Kurtz:
I mean it makes sense, right. With the rules right now. And that's why it's wild west is people haven't really flushed out where does this go. If anyone could pay a referral fee. And as long as it's a referral fee and you're marketing getting cases and as long as you're protesting it as not being a lawyer, that's great. I mean that works. We have a lot of paralegals in town who are basically opening up law firms. They don't practice a law, but they bring in the case if they handle the case and they work it up and they get the clients the care they need and help set them up with property and then they refer them out to a lawyer.
And it's like a lot of people are freaking out about that. And they're like, "Oh, that's awful." But at the same time a lot of underserved demographics are getting handholding that they deserve that they're just not going to get. The Hispanic and the Black communities are too cleanly underserved in Arizona. And having people connect with that... Vanessa over a victory legal who goes a lot of national events. Vanessa is amazing at connecting and taking care of our community. At the end of the day, what's best for the client? How is the client going to have their case handled the best and how are they going to feel like the phone rings, they can get it answered. I mean, that's what this is all about.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I think that's a big solid note. The access to legal representation. More people having the ability to contribute to that. So I think that's amazing, because you and I in the PI space we know that the contingency fee is a thing. But most people when they hear attorneys, they think of costs, they think hourly billing, just commercial or the other transactional law areas. What small change has had the biggest positive impact on your firm?
Austin Kurtz:
Man, that's hard. I think that the small change would probably be taking ourselves less seriously. Brian's wife pushed us to do a social content. We won best of the Valley, best lawyers in Phoenix and best personal entry lawyers in Phoenix. We kind of campaigned for it. And what do we have to do to win this? We knew who had won it every year. We knew how many votes they'd get. We were like, "All right, we got to get 300 votes a day. Let's go do it." When we did the video announcing it we were like, "How do we come up video with a analysis?" And we made a fake mock TikTok video where we just took that song, "Throw that ass in a circle." And Brian and I are dancing like idiots and I think we posted it being like, "Wow, this is so dumb." But it was kind of a change of like, "Hey, we're good lawyers at the end of the day. Let's just have fun with this."
Chris Dreyer:
What a fantastic conversation with Austin from their tech-first approach to how they're building referral networks. He is flipping the script. And I love their mindset about competition making everyone better. If you got value from this episode, I'd really appreciate you sharing it with another firm owner who could benefit. You can find all the resources and tools Austin mentioned in show notes. All right everybody, thanks for investing time with us today. Keep pushing the boundaries, keep growing. We'll catch you next week.
