Michael Mann:
And so it's really understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each channel, and engineering a mix that really reaches folks at all phases of that process.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, Founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the legal marketing company the best firms hire when they want the rankings trapping cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. PIMCon is hitting Scottsdale in just 10 days. Join me. Our singular mission, getting you quality leads. Go from good to go. Don't miss the chance to supercharge your practice, your future self will thank you for the making the investment. Head to PimCon.org now to secure your spot. Trust me, this is the one event you don't want to miss.
Today we're diving deep with Michael Mann from Scale Marketing, and I'm genuinely excited about the insights he's bringing to the table. It's a masterclass on modern legal marketing, breaking down how to create a sophisticated multichannel strategy, a symphony of media. It's like conducting a marketing orchestra where every instrument is playing in perfect harmony to make your phone ring, and it's all backed by rock solid data. No more shooting in the dark or following your gut. We're talking about smart capital allocation, established media hierarchies, and optimizing frequency so you're not wasting a single cent. Here's Michael Mann, Senior Account Strategist at Scale Marketing.
Michael Mann:
I've been in media now for over 25, fitting on 30 years. I started my career back in Young & Rubicam on the big agency level, working on accounts like AT&T Wireless, Lincoln Mercury, Helzberg Diamond, so and so forth. And we were doing mass tonnage buys and it was influencing big brand, but you really didn't have the kind of performance controls at the time to understand the relationship between all that TV and performance. And so after six years with Young & Rubicam working on, as I said, United Airlines, AT&T, and so on and so forth, I shifted to working with local small to mid-sized businesses and I worked on the media side. Mostly on radio and a few different companies, whether it's in sales or in leadership at various levels. That was really a cool experience to take the big brand experience and work with business owners that every dollar they spent is hard-earned and has to work hard for them.
And so that was really cool being able to work with business owners who make decisions right away, and within 2, 4, 6 weeks start to see is this working, is it not? So to have that big brand, big buy experience where you really don't know how broad of an impact it's having and marry that with working with individual businesses, every penny has to work led me to Scale Marketing, which really combines the two. I think you hear the term brandformance, brand performance right now. There's a lot of direct response advertisers who just focus exclusively on last click attribution, but I think they miss the big picture of creating the right identity and message in the market. And so for me, I try to take both of those experiences, marry them together. And what I love about Scale is we've got a team of five or six just data scientists, which most small media agencies don't have. And so they're able to help us parse the data, set up various testing frameworks, and help us measure what's working, what's not.
Chris Dreyer:
Not very many marketing agencies have data scientists and focus, I like the combination of the play on words, the brandformance, because a lot of times people talk about, it's either direct response or it's brand.
Michael Mann:
Yeah.
Chris Dreyer:
In many instances, the direct response strategies can impact the brand and how you're perceived. Let's lean into the data scientist part, the attribution. PI firms historically have had a lot of difficulty. You'll get the last touch. A lead docket, it'll say, "Oh, it converted here." But maybe you can dive into just the attribution side and what you saw coming from the big brand side over to the PI.
Michael Mann:
Yeah, no, it's really interesting. The big brand side, that was 25 years ago, and obviously they're measuring bigger KPIs like market share and obviously overall aggregate lift, but it's really hard to correlate that back to individual channels. On the PI space at Scale Marketing, I'd say the last five years we've been able to really run some interesting tests and I can give you various examples. I mean, one that just comes to mind right now is TikTok in fourth quarter of last year, they opened up the space. For a while, they weren't allowing personal injuries advertising. Some people slipped through the cracks, but in general, it wasn't allowed. And once that was allowed, we built a strategy and we were testing it and the whole goal was to really identify, is this generating lift? Every client's media mix is different, so it's going to have a different impact for different clients based on their other media elements.
What we really tried to do, it's called, Chris, we did a geo split test where, and I'm not sure if you're familiar, but we basically broke up the client's market into various randomized groups of zip codes so you have a control group that gets the baseline media, and then you have control group A that has let's say TikTok lead gen or TikTok reach. And then you have another control group that has both, or you have one control group that does reach. And by the way, if some of your folks are not familiar with the various ways to advertise on TikTok, there's a few disciplines you can strategize just for direct lead gen, or you can use the mechanism just to pay a cheaper CPM and just have overarching brands. I just want to make sure that's clear as well.
We just separated the markets and looked at performance, okay, this control group that has my baseline media, how's it performing? And this group that has lead gen at this spend, okay, are we seeing lift? What's the lead volume? What's the wanted leads? And ultimately downstream, what's the case volume? And then you look at all three groups and after a four, six, eight week window, there's enough statistical viability to it and the data is mature enough to go, "Okay, we did this and here's what we saw." Now that doesn't mean that TikTok does or doesn't work, that could also be a function of creative.
A lot of this is iterative, and using data is not a one-time play, it's not a set it and forget it. It's like, "Okay, what's the next piece of learning I need to gain to optimize my media?" And once I have that learning, and by the way, some of the best learnings are no, it doesn't work. And I will say initially, TikTok, for at least the client that we've been testing over the last three months, we haven't seen a ton of lift. We've seen maybe 3, 4% lift, but we were hoping to be far more substantive than that.
Chris Dreyer:
Now you got me curious, right? Because I am definitely a novice when it comes to TikTok ads. What's a CPM look like on TikTok for that brand lift?
Michael Mann:
The CPMs on TikTok are on the low side. I mean, we've seen them sub $5 depending upon seasonality.
Chris Dreyer:
That's like radio range, right? Aren't they sub five?
Michael Mann:
So that's a pretty good CPM. But if it's not additive, if you've got Facebook in the market and it's playing its role, and you have let's say native tactics playing its role, you may not need TikTok. I was just talking about this with a client this morning where they have such a robust mix. I look at it as a hierarchy of media. When you understand somebody's core clientele, you understand how they consume media and you understand the seasonality, it's like, okay, what's the next media end to test? We've really done a really good job of finding and isolating this mix as being performing really well. Where's the next channel that's going to give us incrementality and let's test it, and let's understand whether it has a role to play in the media.
Chris Dreyer:
Your Glen Lerner types, the Morgan & Morgan crowd, these heavy hitters have built empires in traditional media. And let me tell you, TV still packs a punch when it's done right. These heavyweight PI firms are all over TV, plastered on billboards, and they dip their toes in radio as well. It's a solid strategy for capturing that older demographic. Younger generations are more comfortable scrolling through social media than twisting a radio dial. It's a whole new ballgame. Capture this younger crowd, firms need to pivot, but they can't kick traditional media to the curb and adopt a digital only strategy. It's not an either-or situation. It's about finding the sweet spot, the perfect mix of old school and new school. Michael explains his approach to striking the balance.
Michael Mann:
When I came up in Young & Rubicam 30 years ago, it was a traditional media landscape. It was television, it was radio, it was boards, it was direct mail. And we all grew up learning that space, reading Nielsen books, estimating ratings on programs like, "Oh, what's ER going to do? Let's look at what it's done in the last four quarters." So it was a really robust way of looking at traditional. And then you've got 10, 20 years later, a younger crop of marketers coming in that really don't have that background on traditional media. They don't understand how the programming works, how to buy it, how to negotiate it, but they know digital really well because they grew up with it. They grew up on Snapchat, they're growing up on TikTok. And what we try to do and what I try to do is meld the two together.
There's not a lot of folks that have that legacy traditional media understanding that knows the efficiencies there, know how to get that $2 to $5 CPM, maybe up to 10 depending upon the market if you really had to, but really know how to leverage that low CPM for top of funnel awareness, but then really can look at the emerging social and digital space to understand the roles that these channels play. And I hate to use the word buyer journey because everybody throws it out, but people are researching. They're reading articles, they're in the middle of their funnel. TV does, if you have a top line brand message, it doesn't help push somebody that's already considering. It's really understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each channel and engineering a mix that really reaches folks at all phases of that process where in the past it's just blast TV, blast TV, they'll come to you.
That still works. But when you support it with mid-funnel tactics and lower funnel tactics, obviously paid search, local service, there's some others, that cohesive mix of leveraging legacy media I guess, I mean I hate to call anything I learned legacy media, dating to me. But legacy media with those emerging data technologies that by the way, Chris, are changing daily and weekly, and if you don't stay on top of it, you're already falling behind. So to us, we try to meld both those. Folks that are just using traditional media, I think are missing a boat. And candidly, I think folks that are just exclusively using social and digital channels, connected television without traditional media are also missing out on both.
And so to us, we've seen our firms now as you started up, believes in a symphony of media. Social media is an oboe. Traditional media is the violin, whatever the case you need, all of these working together seamlessly and efficiently in one holistic cost per case, cost per lead, cost per wanted lead, so on and so forth. It's piecing all of those together, starting out with a plan, and then looking at, digital has so much data. The KPI data, the soft KPI data, soft KPI being click-through rates, engagement rates, time on site with hardcore KPIs like conversion rates on a website and so on and so forth. You piece all that together, and then really marketing and traditionally the place to buy, you couldn't move it very much. It was, yeah, two weeks out you were stuck for a while. Digital, you can lever on and off on a daily basis and so it's merging those two disciplines together. That is what Scale does, and our philosophy and where we've had success with the law firms we're fortunate to represent.
Chris Dreyer:
I think that might be a new favorite phrase of mine, the symphony of marketing and how that all fits together because you can visually see that in your head. You had a client that had been traditionally using a lot of billboards and it was an early engagement and you were like, "Look, we're going to shift this money over to this other strategy." So maybe you could just talk to me because for me, billboards have been one of those staples in the mix and maybe just your thoughts on those and how they apply to a marketing strategy.
Michael Mann:
Yeah, no, Chris, it's a great question. It comes up with every law firm because again, law firms, a lot of them were built on billboards and believe in it. I want to preface my answer with I do believe in billboards. I do think they play a role in the media mix. I think every channel theoretically, if it's well targeted and well bought with the right CPMs can theoretically make the right impact. But I also think that a lot of firms that have managed their marketing on their own without the data supported sometimes can end up overspending. There's core locations, core highways. Competitively, you want to box out a competitor from getting a great spot. I get that there's a role that billboards play.
I think I mentioned the word hierarchy of media. When we onboard a client, we're understanding who their basic target is, who's their best target. Not just age, not just income, not just ethnicity, but lifestyle characteristics and really try to granularly understand those folks. And when you do, you can also look and understand, well, are they heavy commuters? Is billboards really the play? And so I think there's a good spend amount, 5, 10, maybe 15% on billboards, but my challenge is with firms that put 30, 40, 50% into billboards, we've found, and I've proven it with a couple of our clients, that those dollars have been best spent reallocating to other medium that have a broader impact on performance.
Billboards are a great brand mechanism, right? It's seven words, it's your picture, but it's not engaging. It doesn't tell your story, it doesn't differentiate it as easily. And by the way, the billboard creative I see out there, I think there's obviously a lot of room for improvement and we got to engage people there. So two clients we did that with, Chris, we pulled two clients back by about 50% in billboards, reallocated to traditional and digital medias, and both saw a lift immediately.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. You mentioned casually the psychographic side of the marketing mix, right? Most of the time it's the demographics, it's the geographics, and things like that. Are the psychographics different for car accidents? I mean, that category or that practice area?
Michael Mann:
Slightly. There definitely, I mean, we've worked with a number of firms and we've seen consistencies. The income in particular does play a role into who has referral networks and who doesn't and who's willing to be a marketed lead off of an ad and who's not. And so yeah, I'd say there are pieces like that. Now, how many children do they have at the house? Is that as relevant? I don't know. But I would say their job, the type of work that they do, whether they're white collar, blue collar, their profession, managerial, whatever. I think that does play a role because that informs there's so many data layering and targeting available, thousands and thousands and thousands of data points. Your listeners are familiar with DSPs, demand side platforms where it's like an online marketplace where a lot of the digital impressions are bought and sold in real time. There are benefits to having some of that granularity because you can effectively target those folks a little bit more incisively and try to eliminate some of the perceptual waste that people have say in broadcast media that just reaches the masses.
Chris Dreyer:
You just opened another can for me. Okay, so now I got to lean into it because I'm here to learn as well. So you mentioned DSPs, you got StackAdapt, you got The Trade Desk, you got Simpli.fi, a lot of options, right? That space is super fragmented. Is StackAdapt the leader? Is it Simpli.fi? It depends on the market. What's your just general, when you're looking at these different DSPs, what kind of considerations and thoughts go into it?
Michael Mann:
It's funny you mentioned. I think the three DSPs, we license all three of them. And what I've learned from this space is just like anything, they all have strengths and weaknesses, they all have. Obviously there's a lot changing with data privacy, obviously folks have been reading about that, and some DSPs are better suited for that migration and some aren't. And so the StackAdapt, we work with StackAdapt and they have certain strengths and we try to lever into them, but we use The Trade Desk too. I mean we've used Verizon, Simpli.fi we've worked with because they all have strengths and you really need to understand their strengths and targeting and their strengths and weaknesses and CPM efficiencies. There's rem net, there's different data layering, so it's really understanding for each individual client. I think the whole cookie cutter marketing in this digital era is long gone. And I know some would say it's been gone for a while, but there's still a lot of firms just rinsing or feeding their media mix. And to me, I think there's a lot of room for evolution here.
Chris Dreyer:
I completely agree, and I think one thing that's just not talked about enough is just capital allocation. The PI space is so saturated, there are so many people trying to acquire attention. I think it starts there, people want to choose TV or radio or what have you. If they don't have the proper capital allocation to deploy, it's like you're wasting your time. I mean, would you agree with that? How do you think about that side of the coin?
Michael Mann:
Yeah, I mean I've mentioned this hierarchy of media. Look, if you don't have the, you can do Kantar. I'm sure your listeners are familiar with Kantar and media modders and these resources, we can see what the competition's doing in the market. And once you understand your demographic, you understand the consumption and the target, you can figure out what's that hierarchy, what's the best way, what are the most efficient channels to those? But if the dollars in market are, I'm just making up numbers, $1 to $2 or $3 million, you've got a budget of 500, you really got to understand is that going to be to work or not? And what are the reasonable expectations? Because to me, your budget is competing capital. Every single dollar is competing with another channel for is it going to be more effective there? And you've got to have eyes on it to figure out, okay, if I've got a million and I'm allocating it to 10% to Facebook, whatever, is it playing a role? Is it really having that impact?
But to your point, if you're under spending and you're not doing enough spend in the market to make a difference, we'll walk. There's a couple of core things that we need as an agency to have a good partner. Clean data, data discipline is important, but great operators are really important too, you got to be able to scale up and grow. And I think the third prong to your question is really speaks to creative. This is such a saturated space. I just did this presentation. We're fortunate to present at POMA. I think folks in the audience were surprised to know that broadcast television, the legal space is the number two spending category at almost $1.92 billion across the country. So to your point, super-duper saturated, but it's super saturated because it works.
How do you differentiate yourself? By buying it the right way, finding the right programs, not just buying cheap remnant overnight, buying the right targets that fit your demographic to the T, and making sure that that's effective. To me, it's all about understanding the competing capital, where's the best way to invest it and monitoring and optimizing on the fly. But messaging? Chris, we're spending a lot of time on data, CPMs, and that's the science side of this business. But I also, I don't want to get nebulous, but there's an art side of this business too in the messaging. Saturation just means that everybody's saying the same message, no fees until we win. I hear that all, it's the same messaging over and over again. And I think what our business has gotten away from is who are you authentically? What do you stand for and who are you really? And I think the best creative can pop that.
And I think organic social can also tell the brand story. People can get to connect with you. We've tried to humanize our clients and not just put them behind a green screen and read off a teleprompter. We want people to get a feel and a vibe for who they are, and that makes them want to get hired. And so to me, when you got that mass spend, it's not just the science and the data, it's also the art of popping out from the competition, knowing what their unique selling proposition is and really humanizing how we're going to help and do what we do best.
Chris Dreyer:
I completely agree with so much of what you just said. I'm looking at Kantar, pulled it up while you're talking. I looked at the last 12 months in Los Angeles, $107 million spend. People get mad, and prospects get mad at me when I quote them a decent amount for Los Angeles SEM. That's like, "Look, are you going to do this or not? We both know that you'd need to be in the top three to get anything." The other thing too, the creative side, you're so right. "Have you been injured? Are you in a car accident? No fee unless we win." We've all heard that, it's just noise.
Michael Mann:
It's wallpaper, Chris. And so with each of our clients, we really try to humanize. One example, we've got a client we've been working with for now five years, and he was mentoring his daughters into the practice and from a succession planning. We really over the last three, four years began to integrate his daughters into the messaging and try to do more lifestyle, authentic dialogue between them that really showed the family relationship. It's not canned lines. It's like, "This is who we are. This is our family culture, this is what we do, this is how we talk to one another." And I think that breaks through this distrust that some people have with advertising, this distrust with media, is really authentic and differentiation. And I think that's been a miss in this space, and I hope that we as an industry can continue to evolve that and get that message from you.
Chris Dreyer:
More people are cutting the cords. They leave traditional TV and offer streaming services like Hulu or Apple TV. These services are called Connected TV or CTV. This includes both streaming services and smart TVs. As attention changes, Michael stayed ahead of the curve. He has innovative strategies for targeting CTV. He breaks it down for us.
Michael Mann:
In the CTV space, I mean there's more and more vendors coming out every week. There's more targeting layers. The sophistication, I hate to, this word comes to mind, the gamification of digital marketing and the playing and the levering is getting super, super sophisticated. So to me, Chris, if a client has the dollars and the interest to learn, we try to set aside a testing budget. We try to say, "Okay, what's the first step in connected television?" This was three years ago I got a client into connected television. It wasn't hot and heavy then, it was just emerging. And the client was spending a lot of money in traditional media and we felt like people were starting to cut the cord. So let's test connected television and just buy connected television to reach cord cutters as an insurance policy against our traditional media to reach the people that are migrating over.
Let's test that. Does that give us incremental? People are shifting. During COVID, people shifted away from traditional media, watched more streaming. Okay, do I pick up some of that audience that was left with cord cutters? We tested that. We saw growth. We're like, "Okay, this is great." But then there's a lot of ways to buy connected television. First of all, there's multiple vendors and it's like a soup of logos. By the way, Chris, as an advertiser, it's confusing, think about it as a consumer. I mean, how many streaming services do you have and which would be canceled and which do you want to keep? So these decisions are, there's a lot to make and it starts with testing. We try to sequentially build out a roadmap of testing to ladder up the learnings. Where we started with cord cutters, we've tested different budget levels, different targeting layers.
High premium CPM, like if you get super targeted and you want to be in the Super Bowl and you want to reach people that have a house and looking to buy windows in a week, you're paying a high CPM. It's testing the various targeting abilities, the various networks we've even tested. We've been able to source a deal as a remnant connected television, unsold impressions and go, "Okay, if I can get unsold impressions at a third of the premium normal CPM impressions, does that work better?" Because it's not targeted, it's just remnant.
So it's really understanding the space, the various options, targeting layers, and having a data science team, at least we do, that helps us understand those different evolutions and how do we isolate them, test them, understand contribution. Not attribution, contribution. I think to me, once you understand if it plays a role or it doesn't, and I would say the TikTok results for this particular client were not that great. And one theory is they have such a robust media presence in the market, they're really omnichannel, that TikTok really wasn't that additive. That doesn't mean it won't work for another advertiser that doesn't have that robust space.
Chris Dreyer:
We talked about CPMs, we talked about creativity, different channels. Where does frequency, the frequency of touches, how does that play in versus say just massive one time distribution?
Michael Mann:
That's interesting because the traditional media has its theories on frequency and I think digital has frequency caps. They're a little different. On the traditional media side, we've always been trained. Gail Candiano was my mentor at Young & Rubicon 25 years ago. She taught, you got to get to a two, three frequency within a week to really turn over an audience because the old time theory was people have to be exposed to your message at least three times for it to resonate and even start to act. I'd say in this more fragmented legal environment, or just marketing environment, two to three is not enough, four or five.
But one you got to look at is you don't need to overbuy one individual channel and saturate. It's getting the right frequency across your mix and making sure that each of those individual channels has enough frequency and repetition to play its role in that mix. If you oversaturate, if you buy a 10 frequency in a month, which to me I think could be excessive I'd say on connected television. If you do that, it goes back to the competing capital you were talking about, the capital allocation. You're now overspending in this channel, oversaturating when you have other dollars that could be giving you incremental reach at a much better CPM. It's value, Chris, it's value engineering the media mix with the most efficient CPMs with the tactics that are the most incisive to your customers. And it's bottom line. It's not just lead buying now anymore, Chris, it's wanted lead buy. I'm not measured on lead buy, that's irrelevant.
Chris Dreyer:
Right. Otherwise, PMax would be a favorite channel.
Michael Mann:
Exactly. I can get to 200 conversions, but if it only nets you 5, 10 cases, what's the point? We're taxing your intake. So that's really, that's not the goal. It's making sure the message is honed in and educating and authentic to get qualified leads. And then by the way, we already talked about the operational side, because we only look for partners that want to grow and by want to grow, it doesn't mean I'm willing to cut a $2, $3 million check. It means I'm building my intake, here's my strategy to build my intake. We're not going to lose calls. My attorneys, I have enough attorneys that can handle this case volume as it goes in. I'm working my LSA, I'm working my organic social. These agency relationships are no longer one-way relationships where you give us a budget, we do the mix. It's a back and forth. It's a partnership because if we don't have a good operator, all the best media in the world is still not going to succeed.
Chris Dreyer:
So much here. Michael, this was a masterclass, I learned more in this podcast episode than I have in many, in many, so thank you. For our audience listening that want to connect with you, have some follow-up questions, want to learn more about Scale Marketing, how do they get in touch with you?
Michael Mann:
Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Chris. So I'm the Lead Strategist for Scale with all their legal verticals so I oversee strategy for all of our legal clients. There's a couple ways. Feel free to text or call my cell phone number. I don't mind putting it out on the airwaves, (847) 767-9226. Email's always best, michael.mann, which is M-A-N-N, @scale, S-C-A-L-E, -marketing.com. So the phone number, the email address, either one, we'd be glad to talk. We've offered, we just spoke at POMA a couple months ago, we did a free media audit for a bunch of firms. If anybody wants us to take a look and have an initial discussion about their mix and where the opportunities are, where the holes are, let's fill those holes.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Michael for a fantastic conversation. Let's hit the takeaways. Conduct a symphony of media. Relying on just one or two channels is like a band without instruments. Your TV spot should echo your social media messaging, which should align with your billboards. It's about creating consistent, multitouch experiences that surround your potential clients wherever they are.
Michael Mann:
Those folks that are just using traditional media I think are missing the boat. And candidly, I think folks that are just exclusively using social and digital channels, connected television without traditional media are also missing out on both. And so to us, we've seen our firm's managing partners started up believes in a symphony of media. Social media is an oboe. Traditional media is the violin, whatever the case, we need all of these working together seamlessly and efficiently in one holistic cost per case.
Chris Dreyer:
Data is king, but creativity is queen. Data can tell you where to aim, but creativity is the ammo that hits the target. Your creative needs to connect with your ideal client. Remember, in a sea of legal marketing sameness, authenticity is your secret weapon. Don't be afraid to let your personality shine through. If you're the firm that sponsors Little League teams, shout out from the rooftops. If your office has a therapy dog, make that pup your mascot. People hire lawyers they like and trust, not just the ones with the biggest billboards.
Michael Mann:
People can get to connect with you. We've tried to humanize our clients and not just put them behind a green screen and read off a teleprompter. We want people to get a feel and a vibe for who they are, and that makes them want to get hired. And so to me, when you got that mass spend, it's not just the science and the data, it's also the art of popping out from the competition, knowing what their unique selling proposition is and really humanizing how we're going to help them and do what we do best.
Chris Dreyer:
Frequency matters, but after a certain point, there's diminishing returns. Forget the old rule of three exposures per week. Consider your entire media mix. Think of it like building a case. You don't present the same evidence five times, you build your argument with different types of proof. The goal is to create a surround sound effect without beating people over the head with the same message. Remember, effective frequency is about smart, strategic touch points that guide potential clients through their decision-making journey. Be present and helpful, but don't be a pest.
Michael Mann:
And once you understand your demographic, you understand the consumption and the target, you can figure out what's that hierarchy, what's the best way, what are the most efficient channels to reach those? Your budget is competing capital. Every single dollar is competing with another channel for is it going to be more effective there, and you've got to have eyes on it to figure out, okay, if I've got a million dollars and I'm allocating it to 20, 10% Facebook, whatever, is it playing a role? Is it really having that impact?
Chris Dreyer:
For more information about Michael, check out the show notes. Before you go, do me a solid and smash that follow button, subscribe. I sincerely appreciate it, and you don't want to miss out on the next Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, Founder and CEO of Rankings.io. Join me in Scottsdale in just 10 days at PIMCon. Can't wait to see you there. All right everybody, thanks for hanging out. See you next time, I'm out.
