Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Gold Medal Moments on Personal Injury Mastermind. This is a special mini-series that highlights my favorite lessons from former PIM guests. Each of these trailblazers and thought leaders will speak live at the inaugural PIMcon, the Personal Injury Mastermind Conference. Trust me, you don't want to miss them live.
I'm your host, Chris Dreyer. Over the next few weeks we'll be sharing can't-miss insights and bite-sized pieces to help get your firm from good to go.
Perception is everything in the legal world. Your personal branding extends far beyond marketing. It permeates every aspect of your practice. No one understands this far-reaching impact than the goats of personal branding, Gina Zapanta and Mike Alder. The husband and wife team behind ZA Lawyers has honed their brand as genuine litigators who will go to bat for their clients every time.
From crafting first impressions online to conducting settlement-increasing depositions, their holistic approach has propelled them to recover over $3.1 billion for clients and rapidly expand their firm. Their success demonstrates that effective personal branding isn't just about social media presence or advertising. It's about consistently projecting your values and skills in every interaction, creating a powerful lasting impression that sets you apart in client's minds and the minds of competition long before they step into your office.
To hear Gina and Mike live, secure a spot at PIMcon.org, use code PIMGINA for $200 off your ticket or PIMMIKE for $200 off your ticket. Let the Gold Medal Moments begin. Here's Mike Alder on why lawyers never change their spots.
Mike Alder:
I'm a big believer in leopards don't change their spots. Every one of us is looking at everybody else and sizing them up pretty quickly. Say, hey, if you go on a blind date, let's say a woman is waiting for a blind date and the guy shows up late, he shows up disheveled. He may have a very legitimate reason for that, but statistically you realize that more likely than not, at least certainly probably more than that, they're probably, they don't give a crap about this.
They're not reliable because we know that leopards don't change their spots. In other words, you show up late for a meeting, that usually means you lack motivation. You're not organized, you're not this, you're not consistent, you sleep late, et cetera. Right? Do you agree with that?
Chris Dreyer:
100%.
Mike Alder:
The best people about determining what kind of leopard you are, are insurance companies, because they deal with thousands, tens of thousands of lawyers and cases. And they know that if a lawyer does, or a law firm does X, Y, or Z, that statistically they'll do X, Y, and Z later. And it doesn't matter if you have a good reason for doing X, Y, or Z. Statistically, they know it doesn't matter.
So for example, if you say, "Well, I'm not going to file because my client's still treating. And I'm going to wait until the statute and file right before the statute." You've already told the insurance company what kind of leopard you are. And they know that that kind of lawyer is not going to go to trial, not going to spend money on cases. If we wait them out, they're going to fold or they'll take a low-ball offer.
Conversely, and this is our philosophy, if we pre-lit, ask to disclose insurance limits and they don't, we file. If we believe that they're not, this adjuster is not going to be reasonable. A rear end accident, "Well, we believe the plaintiff stopped early and it was 10% at fault." File. If they have a video of a dash cam and they won't provide it, file.
It's so important because those types of things, in addition to file, serve, and in California or whatever jurisdiction, the very earliest that you can notice depos, you notice them. Of course it's going to be unilaterally set. And when they squawk and say, "We're not available." Then you say, "Well, look, I'm happy to move it. As soon as you give me a date that's relatively close in time, I'll move it to that date. Oh, by the way, my client's available for depo right now."
You want to do a medical exam? You don't need to give me statutory notice. They can show up tomorrow, find the doctor you want. "Oh, Mike, aren't you giving away the farm?" No, I am teaching the other side what kind of leopard I am. And so because of that, we don't have a lot of pre-lit cases.
If your case is significant, it ain't going to settle for real value pre-lit, period. If you've got a slip and fall case, it ain't going to settle pre-lit for full value. If you've got a $500 million policy, it ain't going to settle pre-lit for full value. They could give a crap. So we know that when there are certain types of cases or certain behaviors, we move right into litigation.
And as an aside, I've met with, I don't even know how many young lawyers starting their practice, and I always say, "Let me come to your office." "Mike, you want to come to my office? We're in LA. How are you going to drive all that?" I'm like, "Look, let me come to your office. I want to see your setup."
And I could not tell you, Chris, how many young lawyers that I go to and I'm like, "How many cases do you have?" They go, "30." I'm like, "How many are pre-lit?" "28." I said, "I'm going to come back in two weeks. I want you to come back and tell me on each one, do you think the adjuster is treating you fairly or will treat you fairly?" These are pre-lit adjusters.
And then I'm going to have you file a lawsuit in every one that you don't believe is treating you fairly or will. "Oh, Mike, but that's $800 a case." I said, "I will loan you the money interest free because I know if you do what I say, that you are going to settle 70% of the cases that if they give you bullshit, you file, you go to a new litigation adjuster or a defense lawyer." Especially the cases where you just need another 10 grand or 15 grand, that puts you over the edge. And I'm not worried about you stiffing me because you're going to have more money than you ever had before to give it back to me.
100% of the lawyers that follow that advice have paid me back and go, "I've settled more cases in the last three, four months than I have in the last year and a half." What are you doing? Yeah, you're getting to an adjuster or a lawyer that has more authority or whatever. But really they're flagging you, "Oh, get this guy out or this woman out of my face."
It's another 10 grand. They're going to make us spend another 100 grand litigating this case. We're not going to be able to wait them out. We're not going to be able to outspend them. We don't want that case on our radar. We want the billboard lawyers that are no lawyer is touching them, that we know are going to take 50 cents on the dollar. I want those people in my network. I don't want an Alder in my network or anybody else who's willing to push.
And then as the last thing I would say, by far, the most frequent things I get is my client's still treating. I want to wait until my client stops treating. And I'm not set up for litigation. And I've always found that to be, yeah, if you've got a $15,000 policy and you need to wait for the MRI or the ortho or this, to tell you whatever to pop the policy, great.
But if you've got a bigger policy, why the hell would you wait until your client stops treating? And you tell the insurance company, "Okay, no more issues. Hey, pay me money." And also you're letting time go by. Your client can still treat while you're in litigation. But I'm going to be in litigation, I'm not set up.
70% of the cases that you've been working on pre-lit are going to settle in the first month or two. You're not going to be inundated with case, with work. You're going to be inundated with money.
Chris Dreyer:
I want to switch over to this because you kind of lit up when you said this earlier. And you've got a database of over 9,000 depositions. What is it about depositions? Tell me about that. Why do you just thrive and love depos so much?
Mike Alder:
Because it is the most important skill by a large factor in being a good litigator, a great litigator. Overwhelmingly more important to your cases than being a good trial lawyer, than being a good paper lawyer, whatever.
I've done 100 plus jury trials. I don't even know, I lost track, but I've done 10,000 cases. All the non-trial cases settled. So 99% of my cases settled. In all of those cases that are litigated, there's a first depo. That first depo, especially pre-COVID, and now back to what I'm doing, in person is really the first opportunity that you meet the opposing counsel.
That you size them up, that they size you up, that you get to show who you are. And after that first depo, which is usually a plaintiff or a defendant or a PMK, they write a letter to the carrier. And they either ask for reserves or they change the reserves or amend the reserve.
And if you make a good impression, not because of what you accomplished in the depo from an information standpoint, how they feel about you, they will write in the letter that the plaintiff's case is better. Maybe they don't say, "Alder just looks like a great lawyer and I'm scared shitless. Pay more money." No, they won't say that. They'll say, "Boy, this is a good case for the plaintiff. The plaintiff makes a great presentation. Our client's not going to look good at trial, whatever."
And that impression and that kind of mindset is setting you up for the case. And so when I give techniques about depo strategy and I say, "Clean the detritus and the trash out of your office. Get good coffee, get half-and-half instead of the powdered stuff."
Chris, I swear to God, I settled the case for half a million dollars more because I had half-and-half. Because at the first depo, the defense lawyer is looking for the creamer for their delicious Starbucks coffee in my clean office that has a video always at every depo. That has a whiteboard in the room. That there's another depo going on in the office in the conference room next door. And there's a lot of activity and I'm in a suit and a tie and I'm looking good. And maybe I have a demonstrative blow-up that's probably meaningless to the case, but it looks like I'm prepared.
And they go, "Hey, Mike, where's the creamer for the coffee?" And they're looking for the powdered stuff, and I say, "It's right there in the carafe." I swear to you, way more often than you might think, they're like, "Wait, is this half-and-half?" And I'm like, yeah, "Baby, we're big time." People don't understand that mindset.
Chris Dreyer:
Powerful partnerships can elevate a practice from good to extraordinary. Mike Alder and Gina Zapanta shows us how powerful this can be. Their union isn't just personal, it's professional alchemy.
They've created a formidable legal force. Their partnership shows how complimentary skills and shared values can transform a law practice. Working together means that more than just combining what they each bring to the table, it's about a shared vision for authentic client-focused work. As we hear from Gina, this team-up has helped them solve one of the biggest challenges for lawyers today, how to stand out in the crowded market.
Gina Zapanta:
Hardest part, the biggest learning curve has been the marketing side of it. And being in a saturated market like Los Angeles, where you are going up against these billboard advertisers who have millions to pump into their marketing every month, we had to get creative.
Again, we saw social media and the opportunity to learn it in COVID. And Mike actually was the one who first jumped on, he didn't know what a hashtag was at the start of COVID. He didn't, he's like, "What's a hashtag? Is that the dial number?" I'm like, "Oh, my God." I knew what that was.
And so he signed up. We started just as a student does. He signed up for a $200 a month virtual lesson from a stay-at-home mom in Indiana. Who her audience was, stay-at-home moms. Like, "Let me show you how to use social media to become a lifestyle influencer."
He took that class and it's the same concept. It doesn't matter what industry, and he learned hashtag. Why hashtags are important, how you do? And I let him do that, and then he would download me. And we quickly realized after we learned it, and we're still learning it, to separate ourselves and to differentiate ourselves, we have to be relatable.
What those big mills and the million-dollar marketing budgets don't have that we have, is that we're real people. Our hearts are in it. This is our blood, sweat, and tears. We eat what we kill. We're sacrificing our time to do this from our children time.
That's relatable. That cannot be conveyed on a billboard that cannot be conveyed in a power suit person who doesn't even look like you, who doesn't even speak your language. I speak your language and I look like this. That's the leverage we have.
And sure they can try to copy, and I know that I've seen some of it. Go ahead and try to copy, but you cannot fake authenticity. And we bank on our authenticity. My family's from East LA. I'm the product of a first-generation education. I wasn't first-generation, I grew up very well off, but my dad is, and I'm one generation removed from that. And there's nuances and sensitivities to that.
So we identified the leverage we have as being authentic, as being just real people as well. One generation or one paycheck, if you will, removed from the real person. If people can identify what is their leverage? Are they into sports? Do they have a certain hobby? Do they have a thing? My husband loves chickens If you follow him, and goats, the chicken and goat posts get the most attention and most engagement. But that is such a read on the pulse of society and what the potential clients want.
They don't want, "Yo soy un abogado, I'll fight for you." That's not even us. We don't even talk like that. But he can feed the chicken and be like, "You know what this chicken reminds me of?" In his southern drawl, "This chicken reminds me of when you get hurt." He actually doesn't even do that because that's cheesy, but you know what I mean? That's how we address the marketing that's out there.
And again, we bet on ourselves. That's the best bet you're going to make. And I would advise people not to put money into these marketing companies. They will whine and dine you and dazzle you with what they can promise you. Bet on yourself first. Bet on yourself first, and maximize that and get out of your comfort zone.
It feels so weird to talk into a camera. I know it's so weird. Who's going to listen to me? I'm embarrassed. What am I going to say? What if they don't like what I'm wearing? What if I? Get out of your way, turn off the fear, then fucking go. What are you waiting for?
Oh, but everyone's bigger than me. They have a bigger budget. I don't even know where to start. They're stopping themselves. Versus get a chicken. Or you love dogs, talk about your dogs. Talk about hockey. I don't know.
Chris Dreyer:
We talk so much about social media marketing, and I agree, amazing channels. That's wherever the audience congregates is an opportunity to advertise and connect. I always tell people when they ask me, they're like, "Hey, do you guys do social media marketing?" I'm like, "No, honestly, you should do it in-house."
Gina Zapanta:
That's it.
Chris Dreyer:
You should have a video person there that can travel with you in the community. That can participate in the grassroots and get the real experience. As opposed to me trying to piece something together through Zoom or Riverside. It's inauthentic.
Gina Zapanta:
Absolutely inauthentic. And you just become another non-approachable lawyer. Versus, I mean, you look, honestly, I love how you're presenting because you look like a fun guy who is not intimidating, and I can actually tell you my problems and I'm not embarrassed. I'm not. People have shame or they're embarrassed or they're worried or scared. People will come talk to you because you look like that, and that's authentically you.
Chris Dreyer:
Thank you.
Gina Zapanta:
Probably have business pants on underneath that shirt though. I bet you. They're probably slacks.
Chris Dreyer:
That wraps up this Gold Medal Moment with the goats of personal branding, Gina and Mike. Visit PIMcon.org to go from good to goat. Join us live in Scottsdale, September 15th through 17th, where we will conquer personal injury marketing, network with industry titans, and celebrate excellence and become the greatest of all time in personal injury law.
Tickets are limited, so secure your all access pass today. Just head to PIMcon.org. That's P-I-M-C-O-N O-R-G. I'm Chris Dreyer. Thanks for listening to these Gold Medal Moments and I hope to see you in the Winner's Circle at PIMcon. Use code PIMGINA for $200 off your ticket or PIMMIKE for $200 off your ticket.
