Dawn Smith:
To do this type of litigation at a larger scale, you have to be very efficient.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. Each week we examine how the best in the legal industry go from good to GOAT. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of rankings.io. The legal marketing company the best firms hire when they want the rankings, traffic and cases other law-firm-marketing agencies can't deliver. Here at PIM, we don't just talk about it, we are about it.
If you're ready to dominate the personal-injury arena and champion your firm, join me at PIM Con, the first ever official PIM Conference. Conquer marketing. Network with titans. Celebrate excellence and go for the gold this September in Scottsdale at the five-star Venetian Resort. Secure your place among the elite. Reserve your all-access pass into the winners circle at pimcon.org where we take you from good to GOAT. All right, let's get on with the show.
Dream big, work hard, accomplish anything. Dawn Smith lives by this motto. Early in her career she hustled to become one of the most impactful mesothelioma attorneys nationwide. Since then, Dawn has brought her champion mindset to nursing-home law.
Her firm is unique. Dawn broke away from the high volume, low complexity and low volume, high complexity models. Her firm, Smith Clinesmith, specializes in complex cases at scale. She and partner Curtis Clinesmith strategically built one of the country's largest nursing-home-abuse practices and figured out how to run a national firm with a boutique bill. Dawn shares hard-won insights into choosing niches, structuring firms, and using technology to turn ambitious visions into reality. Her advice shows clearly that even the boldest dreams are achievable. Here's Dawn Smith, managing partner at Smith Clinesmith.
Dawn Smith:
I was in eighth grade. It was one of those eighth-grade trips and super excited that I got to participate. But something about sitting in the gallery in the United States Supreme Court, and just overwhelmingly beautiful and the lawyers were so well-spoken. It was just such a great memory for me that just coming full circle it's cool.
Chris Dreyer:
That's amazing and I'm going to do a superfast forward here. You have a ton of experience in a variety of areas. But I'm going to superfast forward guys, all the way to managing partner of Smith Clinesmith, one of the largest nursing-home-abuse practices in the country out of the gate. Why did you choose the niche in a nursing-home abuse and maybe not moonlight with auto accidents or attack mesothelioma with your tremendous experience in meso? What was it that made nursing-home abuse the niche that you wanted to attack?
Dawn Smith:
That's a great question. It was a journey or it has been a journey. At the beginning of my practice, I was so lucky to get a lot of trial experience with my first firm. My bosses were amazing. I got to try three cases right out of the gate. We did some elder abuse back then. California has some great laws that protect elders and we did some back then.
But then I moved to Texas and my partner and I started doing some asbestos litigation but he was always doing nursing-home abuse. We really decided that based on the national reach that we had with the asbestos practice and some of the contacts that we've made over the years, we really felt like we could make the biggest impact doing these type of cases only across the country because it's really an underserved population.
Chris Dreyer:
When you say impact, we can define that different ways. Obviously I've heard you talk about how saturated it is, but also I believe you're a part of one of the largest settlements in the history of miso so obviously there's a lot of revenue there. Was it the impact on individuals lives? Was it hey, yeah, we had this tremendous value in this case, but it also cost a ton of money with expert witnesses and time. And so tell me about impact and let's really define that.
Dawn Smith:
Well, full disclosure. I did get that big verdict. I was second chairing and it got reversed on appeal. We tried it again and we lost. I'm super proud of that big, old verdict and I'll always have it with me, but we did not get to really enjoy the fruits of that, other than really being such an amazing experience. I mean, it was just this tiny little community in Mississippi and I need to get together with the other lawyers involved and write a book on it sometime. It was fun.
With nursing-home abuse and neglect, most practices focus on a small number of cases. Most of them don't have a lot of lawyers working for them, and they really only can focus just on the best cases. That means they have to turn a lot of cases away because they can only have the best families, the worst injuries. It has to be almost a perfect case.
We just don't practice that way. We feel like the injuries, regardless of maybe they have not a great person bringing the lawsuit, we represent the victims of elder abuse and neglect. And we make sure that all of our associates and our staff understand how we represent these people and what we're trying to prevent in the future because we really think that lawsuits make a difference. There's some great laws out there, but if there aren't attorneys enforcing those laws then they're just laws. Right? They're not making a change. That's why I love what I do, and this is a field that my partner Curtis and I are really passionate about, so really excited about making this transition.
Chris Dreyer:
I wanted to briefly just touch on marketing and business development. Is the marketing more catered to your peers for referrals because it's less saturated and you can monetize these lower-value cases for more reviews? Or is it, hey, maybe a combination of both. I'm advertising at these assisted-living facilities or doing the grassroots marketing. What is just big picture like your thoughts on marketing?
Dawn Smith:
Right now, I would say the majority of our work is through referrals. We've gone back and forth. We've done some advertising for cases. We've had a referral base. Right now our referral partners are really amazing. We've created some great partnerships with about six firms around the country and that has been working well for us.
I think at some point we want to have diversity in that we are advertising for our own cases and also getting referrals. Because I just think that to have a better balance is a way forward with less risk, if you just are distributing everything as equally as possible. I mean, we work with great lawyers, but I don't think that you should rely only on one source or even a few different sources. Because if you do and you don't distribute that a little bit across your business, then I think that you're setting yourself up for more risk than you need to.
Chris Dreyer:
I couldn't agree more. When you do originate those cases, now there's the question of you pay the referral fee or you pay the cost to acquire the client. But some of those, especially when you start getting your past clients refer cases, those profit margins are a lot better too.
Dawn Smith:
Yeah, that's right.
Chris Dreyer:
You can't become one of the largest nursing-home-abuse practices by just winging it. How do you and Curtis and your leadership go about in planning maybe for 2024 or the future?
Dawn Smith:
Great question. Vivid Vision was really our starting point. About a year-and-a-half ago, Curtis and I both read that book. He's been such an inspiration to me when it comes to building the business. He's really the business side of our firm and I'm really the litigator, so we blend our talents and skills in that way. He said, "Hey, we've got to read this book." I'm like, "Okay." Then we mapped it all out. Went through the ten years, three year, one year, and we wrote it down. We sent it to somebody that actually had some experience with graphics and all that and she put it together for us.
I would say that we fine-tuned it there for close to a year, and really launched it to our staff the end of the third quarter during our docket call. We do a docket call quarterly where all of our staff come and we talked to them about where the firm is going. I really think it's important to have all your folks on the same path, knowing where we're going so we can all row together. But we have meetings every week with our leadership team just to talk about problems, planning, our rocks.
You talked about Gino. We follow the EOS traction plan that way, and I think that that helps everybody. Curtis and I are both visionaries, so that makes it a little bit difficult. We feel that everyone's in our head a lot of the times and they aren't. Having those weekly meetings really helps us stay focused and stay on track. I mean, it's still a work in progress. By no means have we gotten it all figured out. I mean, we're still trying to work through it and make it sustainable the way we vision it.
Chris Dreyer:
A lot of our audience knows Gino Wickman, knows of him and maybe has read Vivid Vision. But is it a leadership war room with just you and Curtis, like visionary integrator or visionary-managing partner or two visionaries like you say? Or is it do you have heads of marketing and HR? What composition do you currently have working for you?
Dawn Smith:
We started with a leadership team. We have senior associates that have been with us for seven years or more, and our chief operating officer is Charlie Kirby. She's been with Curtis for 20 years this year. She's really built the practice with him over the years. We started with those folks. We've got our senior associate, a head of litigation who manages the associates. We have a senior associate in charge of probate, that handles the Texas probate and coordinates with all the national-probate attorneys that help us with those cases.
Then we also have our senior associate in charge of our medical-legal department. She coordinates with pre-lit and also all of our experts to make sure that the cases have all the foundation that they need to move into litigation. We started with those folks. Those have been our key members and from our launching point of how we plan to operate this business at a larger scale.
This last year, we built out our business side, so we hired a CIO and a chief of marketing as well. We have a marketing director and also a chief of staff. Those folks meet weekly too with Charlie Kirby, our COO. Curtis and I meet with our leadership team once a week, and then we have Charlie handle those C-suite meetings.
Chris Dreyer:
Your role as managing partner and how you divide accountability between you and Curtis, and you said it at the beginning, but just how you think about that. How you function best as the managing partner, really the driver behind the firm.
Dawn Smith:
Well, we've had some challenges. I don't know if you know about Kolbe scores and print scores. We have started a coaching program with Chris out of Atlanta a few years back. We did all that testing that talks about how you work best, your best self, your shadow self. How you work well with others, in what ways. We did that testing early on and I don't think he and I realized. Well, let me take it back. I think maybe he realized that we were very similar, but I did not realize it at all.
All these books have chapters and just entire books on a visionary and an integrator. Usually you have to have both. He and I just are both visionaries. There is no getting around it and our test scores are almost identical. We really had a hard time figuring out our groove within the firm. He has basically final say on all the business stuff. I have final say on all the litigation stuff. That's his strength.
That's my strength and that's how we've been able to move things forward but I mean, we butt heads. We don't always agree and we've certainly come through a lot to be where we are today. But niching down, deciding to do one practice area, not having both of us pulled different directions, that was huge. That was a game changer for us.
Chris Dreyer:
That's amazing and I appreciate the candor and everyone has it. But it's like you don't hear it frequently, but it's nice that you got that insight from those personality assessments. Kolbe or DiSC or Predictive or what have you, is really, really helpful in that capacity. When I think of organizational design, by and large it's like auto-accident attorneys and there's really three. You've got the high volume pre-lit. You've got the just pure referral, no operational cost, and then you've got the litigating side or it's typically their niche. They maybe just do [inaudible 00:13:23].
Because taking a volume of cases and not just cherry-picking the best nursing-home practices, what have you found in terms of just structure and how you're thinking about maintaining a good quality of service but also maintaining profit? Yeah, you can hire a bunch of bodies, but our biggest cost walk on two legs, typically. How do you think about the organizational design?
Dawn Smith:
That has been really the biggest challenge because to do this type of litigation at a larger scale, you have to be very efficient because it's complicated. It's not easy litigation. To grow the practice, we've decided that technology is one of the most important things that we have to rely on.
We purchased Litify three years ago, and initially it was not working the way we wanted it to. And we've had to hire somebody in-house to help us with that because we were using outside consultants to do it and that just wasn't working. But so right now we're excited that we're being able to really realize the benefits of it. It's still a work-in-progress, but we are automating a lot. We try to learn from a lot of people in the industry that are handling large practices and how they do it and then trying to really customize it for nursing-home litigation.
You've got to be able to have contact with your clients. We use case status for texting. That's integrated within Litify. That has been great. We have a system in place where we're contacting our client at least once every 30 days and documenting all of that. We can see when our lawyers are out of range of the dates that they're supposed to be doing what they're doing. In fact, we have data meetings with the lawyers and the pre-lit team every Thursday.
You just have to make sure because you cannot see what the lawyers are doing. You don't know what they're doing on a daily basis inside. We just don't have time to walk in there and watch them all the time. Even if we did, we probably wouldn't know exactly what they were doing. By performance-based tasks and being able to call that data, I think that's really helped us be able to help more people in this area of law.
Chris Dreyer:
Fantastic. Love every bit of that. We've had case status on the show, so we'll link that up in the show notes that we've had Litify as well. When you were researching your CRMs and you've got Lead Docket Filevine. You've got Salesforce, HubSpot. You've got Smart Advocate and all these options. What was the main reason you chose Litify?
Dawn Smith:
Curtis did all of that research. What we did together was really to plan for the future we needed something that was customizable and could be changed by us. We had Filevine for a while. We spent a bunch of money on that and ended up not using it because it wasn't as customizable as we thought.
We've been frustrated with Litify from time to time as well because it wasn't exactly what we thought. But we can build it into what we need and we weren't necessarily putting all the resources into it that we know that we need now to make it what we want it to, and we're still building it out. But I think that when you're trying to choose the CRM, you've got to know what you need. Is it just going to be garden variety? Do you need to make changes? These programs are expensive, so you've got to figure out really what you need when you're making that decision. But for us, this was the one CRM that we could really change to fit what we needed and to fit our growth.
Chris Dreyer:
Thank you for that because there's a lot of different reasons. There's a lot of good options out there and I appreciate the transparency on that. I want to switch over to leadership a little bit. You've got a big team. You're growing. Right? Now you've got tech people. You've got these non-revenue generating staff. How do you approach mentoring and empowering these individuals to get the things that you need done and to go to follow that vision? What's your approach to leadership when leading these larger teams?
Dawn Smith:
I think constant growth and knowing that we can get better from a leadership standpoint is really the most important mindset. I'm reading several books by John Maxwell right now. I think he's got some great guidance on leadership. I will say when I first started out, I was awful. I was absolutely awful. No patience, just a pretty intense person, just blow people up. That doesn't make a lot of change and people don't stay around very long when you're doing that.
I think making sure that you have clear objectives and clear follow-up regarding those objectives, put you in the best position to empower people and also accomplish the firm's goals. You have to have that and you have to have patience. The testing helps too because you know how somebody interacts. You know what they need. You know How they hear things, which that has been such a change for me is just taking a minute looking.
We have everybody's print scores and Kolbe scores on their Slack names. On Slack, we use Slack to communicate, which we started using that during Covid and that has really changed the way we do things. It's a great tool. We have on everybody's name, the first day that they start. Right next to their name, they have their Kolbe score and their print score. Before I send a message, that just reminds me because I'm pretty direct and pretty straightforward.
I don't say, "Hi, good morning." Generally I'm not an emoji girl. That's not me. But if that person works better when they communicated with that, I'll make sure I'll type it all out and then I'll stop. I'll back up, add my, "Hey, good morning, how's it going?" Finish with the emoji on the end or something like that and I think that it really helps. I really do.
Chris Dreyer:
That's fantastic. What's one of the big objectives, big goals that you guys are shooting for in 2024?
Dawn Smith:
I want to try at least six cases this year. I'm a trial lawyer at heart. That's where I love to be. That's where I thrive. So many of these cases don't necessarily get tried because some of them are just horrific. Sometimes the family members just have a hard time going through with it because it's just so painful and they have a lot of guilt. They made this decision to place their loved one in a nursing home and then this happened. Even though they did everything they possibly could, they still have a lot of guilt.
I mean, we had a trial in Conroe, Texas this year. Super-conservative venue, really proud of our verdict there and I think that's made a change. I mean, when you try cases, you get better results. I would just encourage people that regardless of what area they're practicing in, try your cases. You're not going to win all of them. Nobody wins them all but you've got to try them. You've got to try them. That's going to increase the value of all of your cases across the board.
Chris Dreyer:
Where can our audience listening go to connect with you or get in touch with the firm?
Dawn Smith:
Yeah. Our URL is FightingElderAbuse.com. I'm Dawn@FightingElderAbuse.com and we'd love to talk to you and hear from you. Even if you guys are doing your own nursing-home cases and you just want some thoughts or insights or names of experts, totally happy to help.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Dawn for sharing her wisdom today. Let's hit the takeaways. Time for the pinpoint. Laser focus your practice. Choose a specific personal-injury niche to establish your firm as the expert. Specializing allows you to gain a deep understanding of your niche, craft marketing that speaks directly to potential clients, provide unparalleled quality of service. Pivoting to a new niche doesn't mean you need to start from scratch. Leverage your existing client pool.
Dawn Smith:
My partner and I started doing some asbestos litigation, but he was always doing nursing-home abuse. Based on the national reach that we had with the asbestos practice and some of the contacts that we've made over the years, we really felt like we could make the biggest impact doing these type of cases only across the country because it's really an underserved population.
Chris Dreyer:
Unlock your firm's potential with legal tech. The future of legal tech is here and beaming with promise. Modern solutions help you work smarter for the benefit of your firm and your clients. Don't leave your operations stuck in the past, embrace legal tech and watch your vision unfold.
Dawn Smith:
To do this type of litigation at a larger scale, you have to be very efficient because it's complicated. It's not easy litigation. To grow the practice, we've decided that technology is one of the most important things that we have to rely on.
Chris Dreyer:
Bring out the best in your team. It all starts with effective leadership. Set clear and achievable goals, track accountability, and take time to mentor your associates. By using personality tests, you can enhance communication and align everyone's strengths. With strong leadership and strategic organizational design, you'll not only foster teamwork, but also drive productivity and ultimately boost your bottom line.
Dawn Smith:
We use Slack to communicate. I'm not an emoji girl, but if that person works better when they communicated with that, I'll make sure I'll type it all out and then I'll stop. I'll back up. Add my, "Hey, good morning. How's it going?" Finish with the emoji on the end or something like that. I think that it really helps, I really do.
Chris Dreyer:
All right, y'all. That's it for today. But before you go, I want to extend a personal invitation to PIM Con, the official PIM Conference, September 15th through 17th. I would love you to join me to learn how to conquer marketing, network with Titans, celebrate excellence, and take your firm from good to GOAT. We've got early-bird pricing For a limited time. Lock in your spot with the PI elite pimcon.org. That's pimcon.org. The link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of rankings.io. See you next time.
