Keith More:
There's nothing better than that art of cross-examination. It's like a samurai with a sword.
Chris Dreyer:
Landmark cases are won before they ever go to trial.
Keith More:
Look, when you're taking these depositions, you have to continue to just pile it on until finally they wave that white flag and, until they're ready to surrender, you keep going.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the preeminent personal injury marketing agency. Each week, you get insights and wisdom from some of the best in the industry. Before we get started, hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. Ready to dominate your market? Let's go.
Extracting the maximum value of a case begins before you ever go to trial. Depositions are the foundation of any successful case. Today, I talk with one of the best trial attorneys in California. Keith More has mastered the art of cross-examination. His background in personal injury and workers' comp, combined with extensive trial experience, has landed him recognition as a legal unicorn. The co-founder of Bentley & More, Keith is a four-time Workers' Compensation Trial Lawyer of the Year and has obtained the largest award in California workers' compensation history. Keith, the accolades are the result of decades of commitment to his guiding values of dignity and dedication. He doesn't just believe in working smart. He believes in working hard. He outworks the competition on every case. He shares how to extract the maximum value before trial has begun and why the cases you pass up are just as important as the ones you take on. He also digs into how he has created a dedicated staff who have stuck for him for over 20 years.
Here's Keith More, co-founder of Bentley & More, on how he first got into law.
Keith More:
I got interested in a legal career at a super early age, I mean, literally, as when I was eight years old. My parents were divorced when I was a young kid. I was five. I just remember it was really a contentious divorce. I remember my mom talking about lawyers and things, and I didn't really understand what that was, and then we got to go to court and I got to see this judge sitting up on this bench in this black robe, and it was just like an aha moment for me that anytime someone asked me, "What do you want to do when you grow up?" and I would say, "I want to either be a professional baseball player or a lawyer," and so I guided myself as a young child on that path of becoming a lawyer.
I thought I could have made it in the pros in baseball. I'm glad I didn't. I'm glad I chose the path that I did. I tried out in college, didn't make it. In the Big 10, that was a big deal, college baseball, but I just decided, easy, all right, I'm going to be a lawyer. I took all my classes. Everything was geared towards becoming a lawyer, and I just followed that path and my dream. I still play softball and I still play now even, but that career is over and it was time to just hone in on one thing, and that's what I did, so it was great.
Chris Dreyer:
That's amazing that you had that pinnacle, that north star that you could go towards, because so many people go to college, they don't know what they want to do. They just end up in college. They don't have any direction. I'd have to imagine, too, on the sports side, it makes sense you being just a phenomenal trial attorney and having that competitive side to you from the sports because, being a trial attorney and taking it to court, I mean, it's a zero-sum game. There's only a winner and there's a loser.
Keith More:
It's funny that you talk about that competitive drive, because I was always a great athlete when I was a kid, I mean really, really good. I remember in seventh grade trying out for the basketball team. All the different schools came together, the elementary schools and then seventh grade, and now we got this basketball team, and we had a competitive team in sixth grade, and I got cut, and I was like, "That's never happening again." That summer, and I mean that summer, I must have played basketball every single day, and then, come eighth grade, I made the team, played in high school for three years, four years of football, four years of baseball, lettered captain of the baseball team, et cetera, and all conference, all area.
It's that competitive drive of knowing, okay, I don't want to face this disappointment. I want to work as hard as I can and do the best that I can. That's really what drives me every day. I mean, Chris, I love what I do, and so every day waking up is like, all right, let me get to the office. Let me get to that next case. Let me get to that next conflict. Let me see if I can spread some humanity, and I mean it when I say this. Spread some humanity to these attorneys on the other side, on these catastrophically injured humans. Let's find out what's truly wrong with this person, not let's hide behind some policy or procedure that allows an insurance company to avoid treating this individual.
I've really over the years developed this sense of how can I show the other side that this is a human being that's been hurt. Not only are they hurt, but when someone has a brain injury and doesn't really know who they are, they can't recognise their family, that's huge. I have a case where I went to court, literally, my client had his arm cut off in a punch press and he needed a new prosthetic. We had to go to court to get a new prosthetic. When I get to court at 8:30 AM sharp, the judge is on the bench and, lo and behold, no defence attorney. 8:45, no defence attorney. 9:00, no attorney. The judge looks at me and says, "Mr. More, where is your defence counsel?"
I said, "I'm sorry, Your Honour. I didn't know that was my job to make sure that somebody else showed up. I thought it was my job to make sure that my client gets a new prosthesis."
"Well, we're going to continue this because no one showed."
I said, "No, we're not."
She said, "Yes, we are."
I said, "I'm sorry, Your honour, but my client has a due process right to have his day in court so he can put his prosthesis on without pain, so he can squeeze the toothpaste to put on his toothbrush. That's the humanity side of it. Let's see how can you function with one arm, brush your teeth, do those little things," and so, sure enough, the judge had someone call. They found someone to show up. We don't know whatever happened to that original lawyer, but a partner in the case came in and said, "Okay, explain to me what you need, Keith," and I explained to him exactly what we needed and why we were right that the client is entitled to that prosthesis and a new one." We got it.
Sometimes, it's that relentlessness, that ability to say, no, I'm sorry, a continuance doesn't work for my client. It might work for the court's convenience. It might work for the other side. It doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my clients.
Chris Dreyer:
I can see why you are a four-time workers' compensation trial lawyer. You've been awarded that. That was such a great story. You're an excellent storyteller. I felt the humanity. I got little teary-eyed, and that doesn't generally happen.
I talked to Mike Alder, and he was talking about, a lot of times, when it's heavy volume and it's a customer, they're a widget, they're a thing, there's no humanity. They're just on the conveyor belt. You're taking these cases to court and you're getting maximum value for the client first. How do you give a good deposition? What goes into that? What role does it play in the case? Let's start there.
Keith More:
I recently spoke at the CAAA Convention, which is the California Applicants Attorneys Association, and they put me in a type of bubble where it's like, "Keith, you're going to be one of our featured speakers." The one thing I love about speaking is how can I help you as a lawyer doing what we do make money, how can I help you better your case for your client so that your client gets more benefits, and so I was speaking on denied death claims in workers' compensation. You want to talk about a morbid subject? Holy cow.
Part of the success that I've had in these denied death claims, because if you think about it for a minute, it's like this. Somebody dies at work. That's it. It's exclusive remedy. They were in the course and scope of their employment, but there are certain situations where someone might have a heart attack at work. Now we've got to establish that the work somehow caused the heart attack.
When you talk about depositions, I love taking depositions, there's nothing better than that art of cross-examination. It's like a samurai with a sword. I literally go in, and I'll have a associates. I'll be like, hey, I've got a great one today. I'm so fired up. I mean, literally, after 34 years of doing this, I get fired up to where I'll have two or three lawyers sitting in my office right there just so they can see the preparation, how I prepare for a deposition, how I know my facts, how I get to that point where it's like, okay, this person had so much stress because they had fired two people because of this, this and this.
I dive as deep as I can into those records. I don't care if it's a thousand pages. That's our obligation. These people that have come to us, the survivors, the widow, the children, they're relying on us. The insurance companies already turned their back and said, "No, he did not die as a result of this injury." Look, when you're taking these depositions, you have to continue to just pile it on until finally they waive that white flag and, until they're ready to surrender, you keep going. The taking of depositions is crucial on denied claims when it comes to these types of things or even in accepted case. When you take the deposition of a doctor, you have to know that medicine as good as that doctor. It's called research. It's called time and energy.
It's funny, I always say this, people say, "Oh, my gosh, you're so smart." I say, "You know what? I'll never say I'm the smartest guy in the room. I just won't. I will say I'm the hardest working guy in the room." That's where it comes from. I just won't quit. There's no quit. I just won't stop until I get my clients what they need. I've had situations where my client's been denied wheelchairs, a new wheelchair. "It's breaking." "No, we're not giving it to you." "Okay, let's go to court," and then, of course, the client will get that wheelchair. That's what I deal with on a daily basis.
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal, the discipline, the going the extra mile to do all this. You have a deep expertise of worker's comp and litigating workers' comp. Do you think, to get this expertise, are you kind of forced to niche, to force, to find a focus, to force, and then that brings out the extra one to 10% to get the maximum value? Can a trial attorney cover a broad area?
Keith More:
I started out doing only personal injury cases. That's it. I've tried over 20 civil jury trials. That's unique for anyone. First off, in this day and age, it's difficult to get into a jury trial, but then for me to take that jury trial experience and bring it over to a work comp arena which is only being tried to a commissioner, so it's a bench trial, and to have that skill set of being in front of 12 people and now transferring that over to a judge and making that judge feel what the client feels, see what the client sees.
I had a case where my client had a massive brain injury, and they took part of his skull out. When I brought him up to the stand not necessarily to testify, but I wanted the judge to see the scars on his head. I had the judge take judicial notice. I said, "Your Honour, I know this is unusual to do, but I'd like my client to come up to the bench and you to see, and we'll describe where the scarring is on his head." He has an indentation over his left temple. It was so compelling that when the judge did it, I mean you could see he was just engaged, and then, of course, the issue was was my client a hundred percent disabled because of that brain injury? The insurance company said, no, he wasn't, that he could work, and the judge said, "Absolutely, we agree with Mr. More. There's no doubt that he is a hundred percent disabled."
I think really the skillset of having tried as many jury trials, being a member of the American Board of Trial Advocates, ABOTA, is what really is unique for me because I've done probably over 250 work comp trials. I don't know anyone in the country, and I go to the national board meetings now for ABOTA, and they do these national trips, and I've talked to people and they're like, "Wait a second, you've tried jury trials and you do workers' comp? I mean, you're a unicorn."
It's been a great mix with my partner Greg Bentley, who only does personal injury, massive cases, incredible trial lawyer. I had the benefit when Greg and I first became partners. Actually, before that, when we first became friends, in 2007, me and Mr. Bentley met up in Sacramento. We were lobbying. I was next in line for the president of the Orange County Trial Lawyers Association. He was coming up the chain as the Consumer Attorneys of California president. He was uber connected. I was more of a local kind of guy. He was the statewide. We just hit it off as friends, and then we started going out as friends and things. The next thing you know, he's referring me work comp cases, and he's saying, "Hey, instead of referring me the PI case, why don't we try that case together?" and so we actually got to do a few cases which were little starters for us.
I was out to dinner with Greg. Of course, he's so enthusiastic. He loves the law. He's like, "So do you have any cases we could try together?" I had another case. This little young 16-year-old kid got his hand caught in a disc Sander, and I said, "You know what, Greg, I think I got one," and he said, "All right, let me hear the facts," and I tell them the story. We're storytellers. We got to lay it on. We're laying it on. I'm laying it on. He said, "Well, what's the offer? There's got to be a good offer on the case." I said, "School district is offering $15,000." He was like, "That's it?" I said, "That's it, 15." He said, "All right, let's take it on."
We went to trial on that case. I believe, on the day of trial, they offered us 150,000. Some people might say, well, it's a tough liability case, school district in Orange County. Is a jury going to award money against the school district? We said, "We're going forward." We tell the client the risks, the benefits, the whole nine. Jury came back with $2.8 million. In that situation, we knew, he and I knew we had something good. From there, it was just a matter of time before we knew that relationship of the PI, the work comp, his trial skillset, my skillset, our people skillset would mend together and we could become a real driving force in not only Orange County, but in the state of California, and that's what we've done.
Chris Dreyer:
Amazing reputation, amazing results, and you guys have been at it for, I believe, over 30 years now. Is that correct, 33 years?
Keith More:
Well, I'm going to let you in on a secret. First off, I don't dye my hair. I'm actually older than Greg. He's got me in grey hair, but I'm turning 60 in April, April 10th. In case anybody wants to send a birthday wish, but April 10th I'll be 60, and then he's just turned 59. I got one year on him, but I've been doing this for 34 years. It's hard to say, but I think my enthusiasm gets more and more as time goes on.
Chris Dreyer:
Keith has been in business for over 30 years and has helped thousands of people, but his key to success is not accepting every case that walks through the door. He shares his approach to picking the cases that are right for his firm.
Keith More:
Well, I learned a long time ago you make more money on the cases you don't take than on the cases you do take. When you really think about that, you got to say to yourself, "What in the world are you saying? 'You make more money on the cases you don't take?'"
I've spoken at seminars before where I've said, "Hey, we've got a great thing here. If you choose the right cases, you're going to make money and you're going to be successful. You're going to help people." We choose the right cases. Some might not be the easiest, some might be the most difficult, but we're able to figure out literally with our experience and the team we've put together, and that's a great thing to know for any law firm or any attorney. You can't do it by yourself. You might think you could do everything on your own, but you got to have a great team around you.
My assistant Carmen has worked with me personally for 31 years. Other staff have been here for 25. I've had these assistants with me for over 20 years most of them. They know what I need. They know what I expect, and they know that we're representing people that need us, not just me. They don't need just me. They need you. They need our assistants. They need my secretary. They need hear a voice. I can't stand when I call a law office and I get a robot, I get a machine. We will never do that. It doesn't even matter at lunchtime. We have somebody cover the phones. We know, when you call Bentley & More, you're going to get personal attention from the first call.
That's a big deal. People don't want to be put on hold. People don't want to have to go, okay, punch in for an M, for an O, an R, E, O. That section, that's 210. I want to know, hey, I'm calling because I need an attorney, and you're answering because you're the attorney. That's what we do.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible, with your secretary, your assistants that have been with you so long. What is your recipe, your personal recipe to retain these key players? It's not all about compensation. What is it?
Keith More:
It's about understanding that they're people. They have families. I've never stood between their family and this office. If they have a child who is playing soccer at 3:00, they got to go to that game. If they have a graduation, it doesn't even matter what the event is, they need to be a mom, a dad, a brother, a sister. Family comes first. With that mentality of family comes first, they become like family to you.
At one point, I had two generations of people working here. My assistant Carmen, who's been with me 31 years, both of her daughters worked here. Her eldest daughter was brilliant, a valedictorian at her school in high school. I remember when she was born. She could have gone to MIT. She chose UCLA. She graduates. She wanted to work here. I said, "You're an engineer. You got six months to get out." Two generations, her and her daughter, working. Her daughter was brilliant, great for the office, but I wanted her to do what she went to school for. She's happier than ever. Now she has a baby, and it's like, oh, my gosh, it's so awesome. Then another one of my secretaries or staff, her daughter still works with us, and she'll work with us forever. Trinny has been with us for I think 27 years.
When you treat people with respect and dignity and you have an understanding of that family and the importance of them being there for their family, they respect that, they understand it, and then you develop that sense of loyalty and teamwork. That's a great thing.
Chris Dreyer:
It's so powerful. I love every bit of that and it just resonates. It's just so powerful. Keith, this has been amazing. What topics are lighting you up right now, and then how can people get in touch with you?
Keith More:
All right. One of the biggest topics that we're facing right now in the work comp arena is the need for medical treatment for catastrophically injured, spinal cord injury patients, brain injuries, amputees, death claims, all of that. The work comp system today is a system that is so one-sided to the insurance company that, if they realised, if they gave these injured workers the treatment they needed, there wouldn't be a need for us because, if they did the right thing, the system is a benefit delivery system. There shouldn't be a need, but there is an absolute need because they'll never give them the medical treatment they need, and so when somebody's denied medical care.
I've had situations where somebody's handled their own case for six weeks, six months, and they're not getting any benefits, and then all of a sudden somehow, someway, they talk to someone and that someone says, "Wait, you're not getting home healthcare? Wait, you mean they want your cousin to drive you to the doctor because you don't have legs? That's not how it goes," and so then they find us and, when they come to me, I'm like, "Okay, well, let's talk about the benefits you are getting."
When I see this, it infuriates me, Chris. I mean, it's insane to think that profit is more important than people. This is a constitutional right. Workers' compensation is actually developed in the California Constitution, and so it's a constitutional right that, if you get injured on the job, you have the right to those three classes of benefits, medical treatment, medical treatment, temporary disability, and then, depending on your permanent disability if there is any, you get compensated for that disability. That's what the system is about. It's not about profit. It's about everyone doing their job. If everybody does their job, people can feel like they belong, like they have a purpose in life.
That's really what it's about, finding that dignity again in someone who may never walk again. They may not be able to hear. They may not be able to see. There's right and there's wrong. This is what drives me every day like, okay, what's next? What are they trying to do that they're not supposed to do, these insurance companies? What is it, and how can I help?
Chris Dreyer:
I thank you for that. It makes me feel good that someone's out there like you that's fighting for these rights and genuinely. Keith, this has been incredible. Where can our audience go to get in touch with you?
Keith More:
If you just Google Keith More, M-O-R-E, or if you look at Bentley & More, B-E-N-T-L-E-Y M-O-R-E, you'll find us. I tell people all the time, even if you're doing worker's comp or PI, you have a question, ask me. Chris, I will take the call any time of the day. If I can help, I'm here to help. You can reach out to me at any time. Email me. You can call my cell. You can call the office, 949-870-3800. Give me a call. I'm happy to do whatever I need. If you need documents, you need pleadings or you just have questions, great, I'm here.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Keith for sharing his wisdom today. Let's hit the takeaways. Time for the pinpoints. Here we go. Outwork the competition. Well-researched depositions are essential to getting the max value for your client.
Keith More:
I dive as deep as I can into those records. I don't care if it's a thousand pages. That's our obligation. These people that have come to us, the survivors, the widow, the children, they're relying on us. The insurance companies already turned their back and said no.
Chris Dreyer:
Next up, choose wisely, knowing when to walk away from a case is just as important as accepting one. Keith is in a unique position. He's enjoyed enough success to be very strategic with the cases his firm takes on. No matter where you are in your practise, to get them the next stage, you need to build a strong team and retain top talent.
Keith More:
You can't do it by yourself. You might think you could do everything on your own, but you got to have a great team around you.
Chris Dreyer:
Most firms and businesses struggle with employee retention. Keith is an outlier. His staff stays on for decades. That is in part due to the values he practises at the firm. Values like respect and family are reflected in the ways he treats his staff.
Keith More:
When you treat people with respect and dignity and you have an understanding of that family and the importance of them being there for their family, they respect that, they understand it, and then you develop that sense of loyalty and teamwork. That's a great thing.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. Join me each week for insights for the best in the legal industry. Click that follow button so that you never miss an episode and leave a review. All right, everybody, thanks for hanging out. Catch you next time here on Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm out.
