Andrew Finkelstein
I like to be my own bank. I am a big believer in being your own bank through the form of whole life coverage. It affords you the opportunity to, make investments with your own capital, If I'm my own bank, I control the terms and I build wealth.
Chris Dreyer
Building wealth doesn't just happen. You gotta be intentional about it. You got to explore multiple avenues to best leverage your income now. Not just for you, but for the generations to come.
Andrew Finkelstein
Our biggest asset as lawyers is also generally your most illiquid asset. And with you buy the building and put your law firm in, you are doubling down on that illiquid asset. it's a great vehicle to invest in because there's nothing better than setting your own rent and having pass through income to a real estate entity that gives you different tax advantages .
Chris Dreyer
You're listening to Personal Injury Mastermind, where we give you the tools you need to take your personal injury practice to the next level, Andrew Finkelstein is a juggernaut and personal injury. You may know that he's the managing partner of five firms from coast to coast, employees over 85 attorneys, and he's recovered over $250 million for his clients. What you may not know is he's also started an actual, publicly-traded bank, Empire State Bank. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. We help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings with search engine optimization. Last time Andrew joined us on the show we took a deep dive into acquisitions and I highly recommend checking out that episode that we've linked up in the show notes. Today, we explore building wealth, both individually and as a law firm. From tax advantage accounts to being your own bank, we explore investing tactics that have massive long-term impact. But before we get into that, we begin with Andrew's new book, I Hope We Never Meet: Client Stories of Tragedy, Recovery and Accountability from a Life and Deterrence Law. Here's Andrew Finkelstein, managing partner at Finklestein and Partners..
Andrew Finkelstein
The inspiration was really some clients that I had come across that were really struggling right after the event. And I often will meet with certainly clients who have suffered a catastrophic event or lost a family member. And I spend a lot of time not talking about the law, not talking about. What we're going to do for them, but spend a lot of time talking about other cases of people in similar situations and that I give them the assurance that what they're going through at this moment in time is the worst of it. And although they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, having helped so many people through that process so many times they always get some comfort from that conversation. And I realized that I have a lot of these stories. Like to be able to tell every one of my clients when they retain us, but I'm not able to share time and volume. So I wrote this book with the thought that I'm going to give it to every new client in the office, as well as all of our existing clients and Im I'm going to send it to several of our past clients.
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. This is really productive use of leverage. And just from a marketing perspective and we'll get into that in a moment, but. I can tell you, I'm struggling to get through the book because it pulls on my heart strings. Like it really the way the book's set up is you featured these nine stories. And I think that's super smart, how you did the book because instead of just forcing in an individual into maybe one scenario that they couldn't relate to.
Andrew Finkelstein
It's not a continuous story. They just pick the chapter that they think they'll get the greatest benefit from. It's not my expectation that people will sit and read the entire book. Although, it wasn't my intention to write an emotional book. And I didn't think that it was emotional as I wrote it because I've lived all of those various events. But I knew that it was emotional when I asked my wife to read it before we published it. And she was emotional. because she's lived through those cases with me, she knew all the stories. It was nothing was a surprise, but it triggered something that I knew would trigger and other people as well.
Chris Dreyer
What do you hope you treat her will gain from the book and know how do you intend to use it, to help them?
Andrew Finkelstein
I hope they gain the long view and can get out of there moment by moment situation. And a simple example is when you think about pain and discomfort, time is forever. When you're doing something enjoyable and it's fun, time flies by, and the people that this is intended for and that I'm dealing with is they're in the phase of very slow time. And I try to let them know that time will speed up again. while the center of their world right now is very slow and painful that the world will continue to grow around. And what they're going through will with. I don't want to say pass it. Doesn't get any less painful, certainly in wrongful death cases, but more things happen that you start to think about.
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. That's incredible to be able to do that for someone and to be able, I think the best part of of this is doing it through a story like that's how individuals can relate and retain. So I think it's super smart. Jumping over to, the second part, there's a marketing practicality to it. There's some authority building, ultimately this book was written for the consumer who's going through a profound tragedy. You infuse so much expertise in the pages, how does the book help convey your authority and your knowledge of the situations to your audience?
Andrew Finkelstein
By interspersing legal concepts. And I don't just tell the story of a case. I try to give some insight related to the strategy with which that case was put forth, as well as the thought process of my clients. And then an ancillary. Benefit of the book, which was intentional, was to try to change the perspective of the, what I do. And the insurance companies have done a very good job at chastising plaintiff's personal injury lawyers and setting us up as quote unquote, ambulance chasers when we're anything. But and the reason why they do that is they want to make it look like it's a windfall for the people who actually pursue their rights, where the constitution gives people the right to hold other people accountable. And what the constitution doesn't do is give somebody the right to harm a member of the community without consequences. And that's really what these corporations are trying to do to create the impression that they have the right to ignore safety rules. And hurt people in our community and those that they heard have no rights and should be dismissed. And I tried to explain that through the various stories and in the book. And when I explained that to my clients, you can see them sit up. And recognize that they're doing something, not just for them, but also for their family and people in the community, because if they sat back. Did not pursue their rights and hold those wrongdoers accountable. It very simple actions rewarded will be repeated. And these corporations would just continue to do that, which they do. And in this, in the book, I give the McDonald's story and I don't want to go through the whole story, but the short version is it changed. McDonald's ways other examples that I didn't put it in the book is these pharmaceutical companies, right? When they are held accountable and they put defective drugs that do more harm than good, they are compelled to take those products off the marketplace and it would never happen if people didn't access their constitutional right to ultimately. So that's really a central part of the book as well. And in doing so, I always explain it's the clients that are the ones who are really holding them accountable. I'm just the conduit for that to happen. And the authority building is really. In my estimation is the broad breadth of stories that I tell and different scenarios. And I've had the honor and privilege of handling so many really significant cases in many different realms, not limited to It's a silo of type of cases that I'm able to speak about many of them.
Chris Dreyer
So you're trying to deter future actions, like the McDonald's situation Many situations, motor vehicle product liability, something's wrong with a vehicle. You don't, you want to stop those in a future. And I know you've worked on many different cases.
Andrew Finkelstein
As an example, I'm about to start a trial next week where somebody was injured on a construction site, it was entirely predictable and preventable. And this construction company, the general contractor and the owner of the project put forth a plan. That said here is a significant risk and this is how we're going to mitigate it, but they ignored it. They ignored they're in their own mitigation strategy. Not only that the in New York labor law required them to have the mitigation strategy and they ignored it. As a result, my client was catastrophic, injured and lost a leg. Never should have happened yet. They're coming forward and trying to blame him, not accepting any responsibility. And he understands that he has not just a duty to him and his family to, to pursue this. But if he didn't hold them accountable, this general contractor who has a lot of construction work, they would just ignore those safety rules going forward.
Chris Dreyer
Let's talk about the project itself. Writing the book, it seems overwhelming. It seems like a massive endeavor. What do you wish you knew before you started the process? Let's walk through that scenario.
Andrew Finkelstein
I was challenged because I've never undertaken such a project. And I wasn't sure how to do it, but I rarely, I can't think of a time that I see a wall in front of me. It's just a project. It's not something that is insurmountable. There's I truly believe there's nothing that I can't do. That doesn't mean that I'll be successful at it. And that doesn't mean that I'll do it really well, but I sure as hell will try and I'll get through the best that I can get through. So it was never a scenario where I was sat down and said, I could, I can't do this. It was all right. So I'm going to write a book. How do I think is the best strategy about going about it? I did not watch anything on YouTube or read a book on how to write a book. I just sat down and did it. And I really thought through the process, what is it that I want my book to? Who do I want it to speak to? That was my first threshold question that I answered for myself, which was for, I wanted to speak to my clients. And then what is it that I want to communicate to my clients, which I've already talked about, which are those stories. So then I just sat down and literally on a spreadsheet wrote probably off the top of my head, 25 cases with the core facts of what those cases were. And then I organize them by. Types of injury, whether it was a wrongful death or a amputation or paralysis, whatever. And then I decided just to organize them once it was on a spreadsheet, it was easy to do, organize them by injury. And then. I took the elements of, for example, if I add off the top of my head, I don't remember exactly what it was, but if I had 10 wrongful death cases, I took elements from all of them and created a story. Because each of those chapters, they all have elements of multiple cases in them. They're not one story. And I did that because I didn't want to, I didn't want any client to feel like, oh, that's my story. I've had some prior clients call with great pride and said, when you wrote that element was where you really talking about me. And the answer was yes. But no, nobody would be able to recognize their individual case in there.
Chris Dreyer
Andrew could have written a blog post or posted videos on YouTube, but he explains why a book is a great way to stand out and create authority in a saturated market.
Andrew Finkelstein
The perception is the difficulty of creating and offering a book is high. And when there's a high barrier, those who accomplish it have a certain element of expertise. That's perceived by the mere fact that the book was written. And. Physically giving that to a client and letting them consume it at their leisure without the necessity of being connected to something I thought was just completely different messaging. I have a lot of YouTube videos, a lot with. I use in the delivery of my services to our clients. So I've a series where I explain litigation. I explain settlements. I explain offers all sub. Videos. And we share those with our clients, but the book itself is not the delivery of my services. It's the delivery of a message. And that messaging of that were a firm that's about caring, compassion, and concern. I think a book speaks volumes to that. So it, it creates an authority that. I just don't think one gets from YouTube because there are so many YouTube videos out there. And, or any other medium, frankly.
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. And I couldn't agree more and it's, it's leverage, you can distribute it. And the other thing that it's interesting that a book does, even from a podcasting perspective here, we're talking about your book, we're talking about the strategies of why you wrote it. So it gives you. These different platforms, you could potentially go to conferences, speak about the book on stage and that maybe other things don't do as easily, not to say that you couldn't have those same opportunities and you have, but it gives the hosts like myself or, the conference, like a platform or a reason to have an expert on the stage. And. So I think there's some of those applications too, particularly on the podcasting side. it's an easier way to get your foot in the door.
Andrew Finkelstein
It also allowed me to have a lot more thought than I generally do in speaking publicly. So when I speak publicly, which I do a lot, I really don't prepare much. Like I did not prepare for this. Podcasts. And one impression will be made through my voice and the stories that I tell and the words that I use, but they are not nearly as deliberate as they were when I. Sat down and wrote the book so I can create a more, what I think would be a more authentic presentation of myself. Not that I'm not being authentic now, but I can really think through How I want to communicate through the book and because I really wanted it was very important to me that book really was in my voice in the way that I speak to my clients.
Chris Dreyer
I think that's really interesting too, to think about, because when you're speaking on stage or you doing a podcast, you're like, oh, you know what? I wish I would have said that. Or I had this little insight. I didn't have the time, or maybe I didn't convey it properly, but you really get to be intentional about the words in the book.
Andrew Finkelstein
That's a perfect example because I was just struggling with describing the difference between a podcast and writing the book. And really, until you just said that what I was struggling with is being able to have a full and complete thought of why I think writing a book is better than a podcast and I circled the wagons. And when you sit down and write a book, you can really have a complete thought of the topic that you are addressing and not leave anything out.
Chris Dreyer
I love that it also takes much longer so you might be in chapter seven, right? And then you can go back to chapter two and then, implement some things in there that you maybe might've missed on the first pass. So I think that's really interesting. I've never thought about that aspect. Of that complete thought and conveying a message properly. I want to switch over to a different topic. We talk a lot about income on this show. So we talk about marketing strategies. We talk about intake. We talk about client experience and get more case value. But what we haven't talked about is wealth creation. I wanted to get your general view on income versus wealth.
Andrew Finkelstein
So income is short term wealth as longterm. That's the short, my short answer. You do things in the short term to drive your current income, you should do things with a very long-term view to drive wealth and wealth creation, except for the 0.001% of the population is something that is created over. Decades not days. And we get romanticized in the thinking as a population. When we hear the Zuckerberg Musk Gates stories that. It's achievable for any of us to create great wealth in a short period of time. That is not the norm. But in reality, if one is to build. Wealth as compared to income, you have to have a decades long perspective, which is why the federal government has created 401ks IRAs. That's where wealth is built in tax advantage investments over the longterm and income is just real short term.
Chris Dreyer
I think that was very well articulated. wealth, it takes time to accrue it. It's got a compound and opportunities aren't around every corner they're around certain corners in time and I wanted to talk about just some just in generalizations about some of the options, and you hit on the IRA and the 401k, How should they be thinking about those? Should it should affirm. Do a simple IRA or 401k, or is it the different stages of their business?
Andrew Finkelstein
It really depends on the type of law firm. It is there are different purposes for retirement accounts. That's really what we're talking about and offering retirement accounts at law firms the. Significant differential is the type of investment does not allow it. The term is discrimination that the owner can't discriminate in the amount of money that's contributed in a percentage basis, different than. The employee non-owner and I'm speaking very broadly without trying to give the concept. So sometimes a retirement plan is not for the law firm is not the best scenario because the owner may. When I say, want to discriminate may have more, disposable income that they can choose to put into a long-term investment as compared to the non-owner in the organization. And you could be handcuffed in your ability to do that through just a firm type investment. But the alternative is depending on the size of your organization, your employees may be looking for you to help them with their long-term investment, not from a financial perspective, but from an education standpoint, because many non-professionals may not have the breadth of knowledge or experience on the long-term perspective so if you can put in place a program that helps them. Save over the longterm to build their own personal wealth. They view that as you're taking care of them in a human way, which is part of what I believe my obligation is to the people who work in my organization, not just help them earn an income, but help them build wealth. The thing about the IRA and the 401k, and you knew your different levels of what you can invest. Flipping over to some other vehicles and, I just want to touch on these, I'm a huge fan of real estate. I like the tax advantages. I like the hedge against inflation, do you think law firm owners should own their own building as maybe a a form of an asset. So law firms should own their own building if they are secure in the long-term prospects of their firm. Because when you say that, the first word that comes to my mind is diversification. Our biggest asset as lawyers is. Generally our law firm our most illiquid asset that we have is our law firm. It is not something that is easily transferable there's no true marketplace to buy, sell law firms. So your biggest asset is also generally your most illiquid asset. And with you buy the building and put your law firm in, you are doubling down on that illiquid asset. And you're not diversifying, but if you have a great deal of confidence in the long-term prospects of your entity, it's a great vehicle to invest in because there's nothing better than setting your own rent and having pass through income to a real estate entity that gives you different tax advantages. Want to make sure you're diversified.
Chris Dreyer
Owning a building can be an asset for firms confident in their longevity, but it can also be a potential liability because it's just not a very liquid asset, but there's more than one way to build wealth in a law firm, the Rockefellers built their wealth through overfunded whole life insurance. Andrew gives us his take on that approach.
Andrew Finkelstein
Here's my thoughts. I like to be my own bank. If I'm my own bank, I control the terms and I build wealth separate and the side. I don't know if you're aware of this. I formed an actual bank that trades on it's a publicly traded bank. Empire State Bank. I formed it in 2004. I'm chairman of the bank. When I'm talking about, I like to be my own bank. I'm not referencing that I'm referencing a whole life and whole life creates a vehicle for you to be your own bank. You are not. Affecting the death benefit. That'll help your family unless you die when there's an outstanding loan and that's gets deducted from the death benefit, but it affords you the opportunity to make investments with your own capital and pay back that capital with interest, which is, should be nominal in the big picture. So I am a big believer in being your own bank through the form of whole life coverage. And the reason why I say be your own bank is I read a book. That said be your own bank and it completely illustrated the use of whole life to build wealth. If people aren't familiar with the different types of life insurance products, it's really important to do your due diligence on the different types of life insurance products. I am not a believer in lots of other life insurance products.
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, Sam I think the interesting thing about the overfunded whole life insurance and where you're alluding to being your own bank is where the dividends still and your equity still accrues and still increases in value. So the arbitrage risk of what you're borrowing that percentage from the equity that you own is mitigated because it still increases in value.
Andrew Finkelstein
It's really important. To not a whole, all whole life products and whole life companies are the same. There are, I would, and Chris are going to drill down a little bit on what you were just saying. There's a huge difference between a mutual life and a life insurance company, a mutual life, for example. I believe Northwestern is a mutual and the guardian is a mutual. And there are a few other mutuals. It says this any excess premiums that the company earns get redistributed back to the whole life owners. So you are not only. Own a whole life company, a whole life policy that you can draw down against you get the dividends of the company in the form of added death benefit. With that added death benefit, you then have more capital to draw from that's for those who are familiar with it, that's how it works. That does not happen with a non. Company to my understanding where, so that's where the life insurance company is keeping those excess premiums and that drives their earnings.
Chris Dreyer
There's so much here. So guys, those of you listening, I think we have to bring on an expert because. I'm in agreement. I think this is one of the best forms of wealth creation. And again, that's how the Rockefellers out of the families that we hear about the Carnegie's and they will have those. That's why the Rockefellers still have their money. It's because of whole,
Andrew Finkelstein
I'll give you another one. Forbes, Malcolm Forbes had more life insurance than any other asset when he died. And the main reason is it passes outside of your estate from the state tax purposes.
Chris Dreyer
I hear that banks to a majority of their investments go into whole life, which is
Andrew Finkelstein
Interesting. So being a chairman of a bank, I can tell you what's called a BOLI. Bank owned life insurance, B O L I, and there's a whole separate investment product that sold exclusively to banks BOLIs, and the bank will take capital and have a whole life policy on their executives. The executives have to sign off and agree to. And they earn and it, the earnings that are earned on the, I BOLI go to the earnings of the bank. So the answer is my bank as a significant investment in BOLI.
Chris Dreyer
Super smart. Super smart. I want to touch on, 529 accounts for kids. Definitely
Andrew Finkelstein
really important. Yep. That's building wealth over 18 years. Start from as soon as they're born. Don't miss it. My youngest graduates college in two weeks. So we've made our last 5 29 payment out of her account. My middle one graduates grad school, a master's in education. And my oldest is in his second year of law school. We invested in 5 29 plans for each of them. As said, just like you did starting as soon as they were born funded it for the first seven years of their life or so. And then it just, we have. My son was born in 94. So I caught the 94 97 99. And it's been a fantastic stock market. Put it into the most aggressive investment that you possibly can. Each of my kids have multiple six figures still in their 5 29 accounts after they're done. It's completely transferable. And I told each of them to not touch it. So that when they have children, they can transfer it to their children and their kids' colleges will be paid for, just think about how long those monies will be invested. There's no great what greater wealth creator than the stock market. No doubt about it. And so the, these short, the short term pain will result in long-term gain. I'm sharing that with you, Chris, so that you can see just like my book. You can see the other side. Hang in there. I'll put a load, whether it's a monthly contribution or anything you put in will have long-term compounding. And when you get your 5 29, statement, You see what your contribution is and what the growth is. The growth has been with my kids. Again, it's been, five, 600%. Yeah, just by leaving it in.
Chris Dreyer
And I think what you alluded to it. Yeah. When they're young, super young, you can be incredibly risky and your risk aversion changes as we age. But the other thing I you know, back to the kind of the whole life, I'm beating myself up because I've got, I've got 20 plus single family homes, portfolio loan, fixed, doing all of that. And I'm getting really great tax benefits and I'm just kicking myself. That I didn't, get the capital from the whole refunded, whole life insurance that didn't know anything about. And I could have been borrowing against myself, I think growing my own money, but instead the banks getting that benefit and we're talking a lot of money and so it's all these interesting things. And I think,
Andrew Finkelstein
Let me throw one out. One more thing. So you basically said if you replaced your bank with your whole life, And financed your real estate purchases. You would have had it on both sides. The capital in the real estate together with the interest income on the whole life side. And you're getting it on both sides. What I would because this is for lawyers. Consider being your own insurance company, which is what I've done. You can form, it's gotta be a bonafide insurance company. There are different states that have different advantages, whether it's Vermont, whether it's Nevada, you could do it offshore. There are lots of different ways of accomplishing it, but you pay yourself premium. For your coverage and invest those premiums. And there's a special regulations in the IRS code that says the premiums as long, if it's a basically a captive insurance company it's called captive insurers have special rules and regulations in the IRS code that the first $1.2 million of premium that's recovered or that's paid to the captive insurance company is federally tax free. And depending on the state, that'll determine your state tax. So there's a expense on the law firm side as a paying any insurance company, but there's no tax on the captive side. And then that is capital that then can be invested and then can be paid out as dividends.
Chris Dreyer
Geez. That's that is, that's really heavy on me. And I know Ted Jenkins at I was at a Chris conference. Todd alluded, talk briefly on it as well. And yeah, and by the way,
Andrew Finkelstein
it's not like it's not limited to law. It's not limited to law firms because we're were speaking of law firms pay it. You can. Pay an insurance premium and what you pay insurance premiums, not for just malpractice coverage, but you also pay for your buildings and things like that. the individual creates the captive and there's no restrictions on where entities purchase their insurance from. So you can have each of your homes purchase. Or your real estate investment properties purchase. If you have 20 of them, they can all purchase their hurricane coverage. I can't think of another coverage, but they could purchase only their hurricane coverage from your captive. And basically you can set what that premium is. There are definitely restrictions, but. For these purposes there, you can set almost any premium that you want for that slice of coverage. And then you can go out with a traditional insurer and have liability coverage. Or what you can do is you can do self-insure on all of your properties. For example, the first $50,000 of liability coverage on all of your properties. I'm just making these numbers up. And then, because your insurance company, you then have access to the re-insurance marketplace, and then you can reinsure that liability or potential liability through the re-insurance marketplace, which is far cheaper than the primary insurance.
Chris Dreyer
And so a different form of arbitrage in I've heard too that Warren buffet where he really. Had that exponential growth was because of Geico and the float that we're talking about here for capital which is a whole different rabbit hole to go down. And I think it's intriguing and there's a lot of opportunity for continuing conversations.
Andrew Finkelstein
Can I just say. The only reason why I have this knowledge is because I asked questions and I researched, and I asked questions that I researched, I didn't go to a consultant who said, do this. I heard about a captive insurance company. And then I did all the research on it. And I so why am I saying that? Because anybody can do it. It's not, it's all out there. All that information is out there.
Chris Dreyer
Absolutely. And I think, do I regret the real estate stuff? No. I learned a lot from the real estate. Now I know how to get more granular and deeper in terms of those strategies. And I think it's the same with owning a law firm, how to practice law, but you get deeper and you get more specific and get, you, you look at it like a Joe fried on trucking and how deep he goes on trucking. And you can do that in a lot of these outlets, yeah, Joe is the best. Absolutely. big picture. How should law firm owners be thinking about a future exit? Because it's more challenging in the legal space because acquisitions aren't as common having said that you've done several very successfully, but you're one of the few, how should owners be thinking about a future exit?
Andrew Finkelstein
So we want to talk about percentages. I don't know the exact percentage, but I know it's well under 5% and I dare say 3% of law firms make it to a second generation. So understanding that it's not likely that you're, that the law firm will continue on to a next generation. I would highly recommend to be thinking about how. To maximize your income so that you can build wealth over a long period of time, because the likelihood of a capital exit is very small. The type of exits that law firms law firm owners generally accomplish is a merger where they get a cashflow stream based on what their inventory represents, but that at any given time, a snapshot of your current inventory you have to reduce the expenses associated with that, the operating cost. So it's not nearly as much I'm speaking broadly on most law firms as the law firm owner. Thanks. And there's also substantial risk associated with the merger or the transfer of those cases cause now it's dependent on somebody else successfully accomplishing the outcome of the case versus you handling it. The exit for law firms really is you gotta be thinking merger and thinking partners how that will pay you, something for your asset, which is your inventory over the long term. The alternative is having people within your organization that you groom and train and trust and you exit, and then they just continue the entity.
Chris Dreyer
What's next for you, Andrew? and where can listeners go to get a copy of your book?
Andrew Finkelstein
My book is available on basically an Amazon. Or any other bookstore online Barnes and noble. And I just, I do want to say that a hundred percent of the proceeds go to a charity. I received nothing from it. And what's next for me? I am, I don't know. I'm trying a lot of cases, which is a lot of fun. Although I've had the opportunity that I've had related to taking over law firms and forming different partnerships. I didn't seek any of them out. They all happen to come to me. So I'm always very open-minded as to what the future holds, but I don't have any master plan and it'll play out however it plays out. But I will always do things that I find to be fun. That's the central decision that I make. If I'm not going to have fun doing it, then I'm not going to. I don't know if that disappoint you or that I don't have some master plan and what's next I don't we'll see.
Chris Dreyer
There's no one size fits all when it comes to investing. Ask questions and remain curious. You can help your employees not only earn an income, but build lasting wealth. I'd like to think Andrew Finkelstein from Finkelstein and Partners for sharing his story with us. And I hope you gained some valuable insights from the conversation you've been listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer. If you like this episode, leave us a review we'd love to hear from our listeners. I'll catch you on next week's PIM with another incredible guest and all the strategies you need to master personal injury marketing.
