Anthony Johnson:
There's a lot of people just selling snake oil. It's probably the best way to put it. And so I was like, let's be completely transparent and shift that dynamic of anyone we work with. We will give you real time stats and all of our spends and everything,
Chris Dreyer:
Data standards and information sharing may be the future of the legal industry. But deploying a solution is a challenge all on its own.
Anthony Johnson:
And so I had to rebuild our tech stack from the ground up and I realized this is actually the part of the part thats hard and people usually don't get it's, the tech behind it, how you add the attribution, the data modeling all the the audience targeting that kind of stuff. And so it made me reevaluate. What is like the value I can bring
Chris Dreyer:
You're listening to Personal Injury Mastermind, where we give you the tools you need to take your personal injury practice to the next level. Anthony Johnson is a visionary. Equal parts, computer scientist, marketer, and lawyer. Anthony's firm hit number one on Google places in Arkansas before trying a case. Since then he has founded the attorney group, a digital network of attorneys, and is an investor in the nationally ranked tech accelerator program Coplex. He was recently dubbed the industry's techiest lawyer by the Bar Association. Anthony offers us a look at opportunities for innovation in tech, for the legal industry and the future of VC backed law firms. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. We help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings, with search engine optimism. Being at the forefront of marketing is all about understanding people so let's get to know our guest. Here's Anthony Johnson, founder at Johnson Firm.
Anthony Johnson:
I was in engineering, a computer engineering and undergrad, and I was playing guitar like two or three times a week on Dickson street. I was in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. And I remember I picked engineering because it was one of those courses where they said, I was like, alright, I don't really want to go to school all the time. So which one can I get away with? Just going to tests? Really good to take a test. And they said engineering, you just got to go midterms finals, two scores. So I was like done. So I became a creative engineer. My dad was an engineer. I had interest to the last semester there's some class called virtual hardware dynamics, circuits. It's super boring. And I had this deal with my roommate. He was really sharp guy this guy named Tony Loftin, and he. It has a PhD in engineering. He was always on time with every class take notes, right. I Had a full scholarship, but I didn't want to live on campus. I said, I'll get a dorm room. You can have it, but let me take the same classes as you. And then whatever tests they comes, you call me. I share notes. We study I'll stay up all night and I go to class. And so that all worked out great all through college. And then my last semester came and there was one time, went out, play guitar, just missed a class, got an F. And so I ran back in and I go, hey!. Listen a little hungover at the time and I go what, I'm not not going to be an engineer. The best thing I can think of off the top of my head was like, I'm going to law school. I was like, surely you're not going to fail me over this one course. I was still like Magnum cum laude that kind of thing, good grades. And he was like, all right, he's show me your LSAT and I'll give you a B. Okay. So of course at this point I just made this up. So I was like, let me go run and sign up for an LSAT real quick. So I had to do that. Came back, ended up getting a B in the class. Also ended up doing very well in the test. I remember I got, scholarship to Columbia partially. And I just decided not to go. And so I went into actually got my series seven, so I was a stockbroker for a instead, because I didn't like the corporate, like big data worlds, like Axion and like the people in town that were, or the Walmart, like just old school technologists that wasnt a fan. And so I ended up getting my series sevens doing some stockbroker money management, life insurance, and then I decided maybe people will trust me with more. If I go become a lawyer, made sense to me, right? For a 20 year old, 22 year old. So after a few years out of college with an engineering degree, helping people manage their money, I decided to go to law school right before my LSAT went out just locally at night. So that was my path to, to incidentally becoming a lawyer.
Chris Dreyer:
What a story. So let's talk about collaboration in such a competitive landscape. What benefits do you see in collaborating with our with lawyers early on? What benefits did you see there?
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah its interesting, so my personality. I've been thinking about this a lot, especially through COVID, there's been a lot of introspective opportunity. My personality is definitely more of the like kind of get shit done. Do it yourself, rebellious, self starter, kind of person. Probably why everyone said, I guess you got to be a lawyer, the challenge, everything. But whenever I start in this industry, I also realized that can be a flaw. So it's an interesting thing where it's I wanted to hack my way into doing everything myself. Cause I think that could do anything. And then you get to a point in scale where it's I was doing 40, 50,000 emails a month, we had like maybe eight people and like 10,000 cases, like it was insane. And so you start realizing in order to do anything. Significant then you need other people. And so during COVID it was shifting towards I don't really have to work. What am I, what's my reason. What's my why? What defines me. And so I dug into that a lot and I realized it's what lawyers really should stand for. And I always related to the tech industry before it was cool. Like you watch like general magic or some of those documentaries about how that played out. I was like, that they were just nerds before it wasn't like cool nerds. It was like just nerds, before that was rebranded. And then they made the cover of the rolling stones after the apple two. And so I was like, we're just like that before the rolling stones cover. So like lawyers are just superheroes stuck in this packaging of. Bad tech and ambulance chasing stigmas, and they're waiting for this kind of revolution. And so I, I've recently I've shifted my mindset of, I don't want to take over the world personally. I was like, I realized I went to enable and empower the lawyers, which are really the champions of. Of humanity right now. War doesn't happen as much as the battlefield, at least in first of all, countries, it's more in the courtrooms and the legality and everything going on with decentralized because they're very legally premise. Like when it comes to the future agency of freedom or America and lawyers are really champion that caused. And so our goal now is really reshift and say, how can we use our talents and why we're different to help collaborate and enable the whole industry to lift up and innovate
Chris Dreyer:
So let's talk about The Attorney Group. You know, so you know what into went into its success, how did it form what does it stand for?
Anthony Johnson:
When I was first became a lawyer. I was very good. I had a web website company, so I built websites. I did SEO. I build most of the personal, your guys' websites in my state back when I was starting law school. So we had a small like web dev server, web server, admin type company. And so whenever I got to law school, I just launched the site and I always had more cases than I could handle. So then I started working with some, I was like this is important to this person. Let me go, try to find the best lawyer to help me. And we can split the money. So I was in the weird situation where I had no expertise, but a lot of clients, because I was good at marketing. Good. I was like, I always used to joke that I'm not the best lawyer and I'm not the best marketer, but if you say who's the best marketing lawyer, I think I can compete, I can get up there. And that's kinda how it attorney was born was what happened was the neighbor in my tall concrete prison building in Arkansas. I thought I had to be in when I first started he came over and he slaps a broad Spy recall letter on my desk. And he's what is this? I have no idea, but I can Google it. And he's like, all right, I'll come back. And so of course I Google straight. It was a Stryker hip recall was what it was. And so when that happened I started calling all these firms around the country. Evidently it was a big deal. And so I decided I was like, They were so hungry to take this case and to spend all the money and the manpower to do it and delay it and give me money for just finding a case. I said if that's a need in the industry, let me fill that gap. And so we started, I turned into marketing. I wrote a blog and that's was the first concept of Attorney Group. It was actually called like Arkansas lawyers group at the time or something like that. And then we just, like you said, leverage again is we went there and they were like, another firm said, Hey, if I give you like a hundred grand, will you give me 10 more Stryker cases. And so we did a very slow with what's good and bad. We learned a lot and we're very methodical, but it forced me to get granular with marketing and understanding it. Cause I think we signed up 160 where they want a 10. And then we went from there and just really, we started leveraging wall street and financing to grow our firm, and using Attorney Group as the marketing side. And then recently that has now spun into. We've gotten very good and we've gotten very good at least definitely like the paid marketing cause of, there'd been a big pivot over the last seven years or so from organic to paid just harder. Scaling it quickly. Let's put it that way. Organic has a huge use case in a lot of practice areas. But we made that pivot and then recently, like I said, we've been like, so we've said we, the best people know us for being the best at a lot of paid advertising and lawyers trust me, cause they just, they have this clicky, you're a lawyer thing. But we've recently spun that out into its own entity. And now we've just started stealth mode taking on some clients. Cause I that's if we're the best one, I tell my team, marketing guys prove it, you're always talking about how you're so great. I was like the only way for us to prove it is to offer it externally and actually gets a feedback. There's a lot of people just selling snake oil. It's probably the best way to put it. And so I was like, let's be completely transparent and shift that dynamic of anyone we work with. We will give you real time stats and all of our spends and everything,
Chris Dreyer:
I think that's tremendous. I huge advocate for that and that transparency. I think the interesting thing about what you're doing is the data and I look at models like Law Tigers and, just some of the other business entities, I think Walker Advertising's doing some of it where, are you gonna look at that where these attorneys, that a trust you can pull. Spend to maybe get true economies and true data for true cost per acquisition. What kind of strategies are going into that? It's very intriguing.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah. I realized recently, so we had built a lot of our sales technology on top of our legal systems, because obviously we were doing it for ourselves. I realized that were over COVID especially, I was like, let's I was like, I'll give you guys some time to just run marketing and see if I we went to a lot of ads off philosophies, a lot of distributed workforce type methods. And I'd realized our tech was too complicated and a lot of it was in my head. And so I had to rebuild our tech stack from the ground up and I realized this is actually the part of the part thats hard and people usually don't get it's, the tech behind it, how you add the attribution, the data modeling all the the audience targeting that kind of stuff. And so it made me reevaluate. What is like the value I can bring and yeah, marketing, we were good at it. We can do it, advertising doing like paid search and paid social but what do I think that can be disruptive or innovative? We're going to, we like that word, but I think it is around the data standards and data and information, and trying to bring that into the space. And so what I would like to do is actually carve out it's a little bit blue ocean right now because a lot of people talk about data, but they don't have data solutions for anybody to deploy. And so if there was a way to create something like a data pool or like a data swap where it's I'll give you my info and you give me like global information on the economics behind. Some kind of case acquisition costs, what Roundup case costs what is it across the country? And this, like what, how do you go get that info? You call five people and then take a guest. And you wonder if they're using the same criteria and you run to where the quality is. Yeah, I think it would be very cool. Had some cool talks to mass torts made perfect about with some vendors that have a lot of spins and they're like as long as you can protect my data and insulate it in some way, but do like dedupes or audit, they don't want to give away their secret sauce and audiences, but I do think there's a collaborative technology out there to really change the dynamic when it comes to accountability, transparency, and standards of data.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm interested in your take on just marketing in general for case acquisition, because what I'm hearing is this is direct response to a T like, Hey, I'm going to pick, I'm going to spend this, I'm going to get this case. Where does branding fit into that? Does it fit into drive down that overall, lower cost per acquisition what's just your general take on marketing as well.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah. It's, I've taken a long route to changing my philosophy on this a lot, over time. So I used to be the kind of guy, as you probably could assume where I want, like the attributes and everything, multi-touch, cross-channel, omni-channel multiple, attribution like I wanna know every single touch point and then value the touch points along the way and create funnels and do all, I want to be very technical about the data. Then like I've realized when you get to a level of spend. . Where, cause I always went national. So obviously I'd go to bottom of tunnel. I never ran out of capacity to grow until I started getting a ton of money. And then you start saying, all right where do you go from here? You got to go on funnel. And when I say a funnel, it's from that direct to consumer, to like more like the desire to buy mid funnel awareness being at the top of the funnel. And then I guess you got even put thought leadership on top of that or brand. And so I now realized that. Most people buy on feelings more than they buy on logic or information in the end. And so for you to be better than other people, I think brand gives you lift across the board. Like you kinda zoom out and say, how do I lift my ROI? And all my marketing efforts to the year of the company, it's going to be brand, it's going to be positioning something more unique and Jen trusted, in the industry. And I think that. I think the value there is huge. I I go back to and I'm being a little long-winded, but the, I look Nike and I teach my kids, the students what's the price of a Nike shoe, right? It's like a hundred bucks, say it's a hundred bucks. What's the utility of it. It's a couple dollars shoe. And then it's a $98 brand. And so when you think about what is brand worth that's it in a nutshell.
Chris Dreyer:
I think it's the true definition of want versus need. It's that's a perfect example. when we're talking data, you're looking at, cost per acquisition at the bottom, then you'd have to redefine and maybe look at CPM, cost per impression. We just had Sarah Parisi from Whitehardt. who talks a lot about cost per impression on a media buying side. It's interesting though. And I've always thought about this as just from a marketing perspective to demographics, right? Like how can that play? How can you make that play, on a wider scale in terms of the top of funnel. And I see attorneys taking positions and they think of it as their niche, but I'm like no, that's appealing to that demographic. And that's why you're not, maybe getting cases from a different area.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah, no, I think you're right. It's interesting. So I'm good friends with the guy that started Chris. And I remember when he started his first group, it was a lot of really high end firms. And, he does a lot of brand stuff. And when they had a marketing day where the firms came and presented, what's like the best thing they've done in marketing. And I was thinking, I'm not gonna learn anything. I've been doing marketing forever. And it was fascinating because each person went up and they had a lot of similarities. A lot of these guys are PI shops too. So they're local. They could do a lot of like personal injury car wrecks. And, but the theme I got was this I call it the hometown hero theme. It's like most of the time, the best campaign they ever did, wasn't about their business. It wasn't about personal injury or getting cases or calling people back or being serious lawyers. It was really more about like a. Either collaborating with a celebrity or like working with the news stations to give away a scholarship or something that like invested back in the community and people remembered that more than they actually remembered, the album. That went hand to hold . That's a bad example. Cause he's got, he does get an advertising, like a, we call people back or, we get big damages. It's like they don't remember that as much as they remember community involvement and personal touch, which is really an effective brand.
Chris Dreyer:
And I think Yeah I see that the, do you think it's the reciprocity, do you think they're just building so much of that equity, and maybe I hear people talk about, giving without expecting anything in return. And I truly believe that some people do that, but then I also think that the PI shops there's a lot of PI shops that are having those Turkey giveaways. Yeah, they want to get cases, but maybe it's not binary. It's not either. Or maybe it's Hey, I want to help people, but also want cases.
Anthony Johnson:
I don't know if you've read Giftology like, he talks about that. If everything's transactional, there's always a contributor and a beneficiary. And if you give something away with a logo on it, you're inherently making it a transaction. It's you give something away. I'm your friend. I gave you my Rubik's cube. That's just in front of me. There's no logo on it and you're going to think my friend gave me a thing, I am funded of it. I do think there is a time and place for converting and shifts. And that's when it gets, like, when you're at marketing, like your job is to think about those things. So it's a fine balance definitely between the two, but I also think that it bleeds into your culture of your company, like it's, if it's authentic and you really are trying to do good that's going to be seen by the people that you work with and work for. it's an overlap between kind of your brand, the authenticity and the culture behind it.
Chris Dreyer:
The legal industry is notoriously slow moving when it comes to new technology. And while COVID forced many firms to lean into technology, there's still a long way to go. I want to know where he sees the most opportunity for innovation in the legal space.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah. So I believe that the technology that drives the legal industry is broken and desperately needs unwavering leadership to make change happen. I think that's where we're at. The biggest issue to me and I think the driving force let's go back to COVID right. So when COVID happened, the unfortunate situation led to a very good outcome, it's like Seth Godin talks about that just cause it was a bad situation or a bad decision doesn't necessarily correlate to the outcome. So we had a bad situation, but there's a lot of good things came out of it. One of them was courts shut down. All cross the country or they slow down, couldn't get a court date and think about grandma sitting there for a speeding ticket in, for some reason, got put in jail or got towed, and she's sitting there and can't get out of prison. That's happening a lot with country. It became a political issue. So like the fact that you, how are we going to unstick the court systems when they're stuck in the, 3 30, 4. The years behind and when it comes to technology and efficiency. And so now that's driving legal change in the laws of owning law firms. So now you have Arizona just passed, Utah, just passed non lawyer equity partners of law firms. You've got four or five firms doing the same thing. Carrying that forward that's triggering wall street to say. We can now invest in litigation back finance, in, in law firms, possibly own law firms. That's, it's always been possible in DC, but I used to always say that the problem was there's only one, everyone's a skeptic, and DC looks at that. And the way that I've learned, they look at it is that there's no backup plan. So we're out now, there's a backup plan. There's a few of them and it keeps it's going to keep going. And so the amount of capital that's just waiting to come get deployed. It reminds me of like litigation finance, 20 years ago, you had this hugely profitable professional services industry. You had a Chinese wall about participation from a investment standpoint, and that wall just got broken. So what's going to happen. It's going to drive standards that are done to need data transparency, because they want to be able to like have accessibility and visibility on all the capital that could be coming into the space. So I think that if lawyers aren't paying attention to that right now, then there's gonna be some huge changes happening, across the national landscape.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. And I think first of all, the grandma behind bars, Most interesting kind of visual description of like throughput and like a bottleneck. It's going to chuckle it on the inside there, but yeah,
Anthony Johnson:
It's always happened until, like I said, it until it becomes a political issue. It's a non-issue for, for a lot of times in America, unfortunately and COVID just slammed the courts shut. Anybody, who's a trial lawyer that couldn't get a trial date. So I try to start thinking. What are the small people that don't have access to justice don't have the capital, like there's going to be thousands of those people just losing it for good reason.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. And I think there is a lot of just innovation, even on the capital allocation and how attorneys can get capital and, cases weren't settled. I think some businesses develop there too. I look at GS the investment, the amount of capital going into theirs and just thinking like, what would the, what the cost per acquisition be for a case and say Arizona, once, private equity and more investors hit that market. So that's where I've been like, even though, me where I would love to have forward integration and be able to take our skills and apply that, it's just I don't know that Arizona, maybe when it opens up a little bit more. So I'm just interesting on how these investors are approaching this and thinking about this, but they have more money, substantial amounts of money to where they can do that.
Anthony Johnson:
A lot of the investment capital was going to focus on national litigations with simply corporate headquarters in the states. So that enables them to deploy nationally on say a mass torts or class actions or stuff like that. Now, personal injury firms like investing to be the best. In Arizona, who's out there Breyer or learner or Goldwater, whoever it is, there is going to get more competitive. But for someone like what you're talking about, I think it's a smart way to look at it, which is you're you have a piece that is in the technology world and the marketing world, like that is standard. There's, it's much more structured. You have all the technology driving, marketing to be good at it. And lawyers don't. I think that the law firm of the future, the one that's investible or backed, or it's going to take over is going to be the ones that take the stuff that you do with, with the, with web work and with technology work. And they have some of these things and they're. Thinking about a guy that has a billion dollars and they have a farm in Arizona. They're probably thinking we're just going to go replicate this from in every single state that pops open, for PI. What are they going to look at? Whenever they acquire a company leadership first, then they look at a process technology stacks, and you start looking at integration options. And that's where I go. I think it's smart for you to look at it because maybe there's five firms that I'll use you in some way. Now you are the connector that makes mergers and acquisitions possible for those VC funds.
Chris Dreyer:
Really interesting. And I think that even to further continue this and we had, Andrew Finkelstein on, and he's one of, I don't know, many law firms or attorneys that do M & A right. It's more fractured and I get that. So it makes it a little bit more challenging. But I think that could open up a lot of opportunities there to. To kinda, do M and a and do mergers and like pull in brands.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah, it's interesting. Cause it's one thing I ran across recently was that. So the idea of succession planning for a law firm, there's not really the golden parachute, unless you have a son, that's a lawyer with you in a small firm. It's like how to, Morgan's going around buying some firms, but it's not really a plan for any lawyer to think about, and then so lawyers typically I guess I'll just work forever. With my name on the shingle and then maybe figure it out someday. There is no plan. But I think that by creating this money and these standards you almost get this opportunity to then buy into firms on a large franchise type scale. And that actually allows people to become investible law firms. If you're now an investible law firm, maybe you can now have an option to sell part or all of it someday. So it is an exit strategy that has never existed before.
Chris Dreyer:
And I think those are the attorneys that I think are on the pro side of this non attorney own. I think those are the ones that are looking at it from there. They're seeing that as one of the main benefits.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah. Oh for sure. I agree completely. we have some of the same philosophies and anyone that's investing in some of the things like that, we spend our time and effort on the technology. Some of the the more up to date business practices, even branding, like all these things are valuable in the corporate world or in the MNA world, the mergers acquisitions world If you're not focusing on that, you may have some legacy stickiness, but you can be the best lawyer in the world. If you're sitting in a dark corner, you're not going to fucking help anybody.
Chris Dreyer:
Anthony is not only the CEO of attorney group, but the founder of Johnson from a national personal injury and mass torts litigation firm. I wonder here what innovative practices he has on the horizon.
Anthony Johnson:
So it's funny. We were doing a brand project, right? So I wanted, I was spinning, I got my buddy, he's one of the best brain companies in Chicago and he came down and we trying to think, like we're talking to wall street a lot and we've come to realize that what I do is not normal is anything about the tech part, the marketing part, the law firm part call center. And so they didn't the balance sheets don't look like other law firms, minded. Like my operations is very different than. That's typical paralegal, lawyer one. And so we almost, we started to pivot and we said what if I did something crazy? Very unlike me. And I said what if we brand like our vision of without a company, like vision first, like core values, like what do we stand for? And so we actually came out and we haven't really presented this world, but we made a brand called stellium. And what the mission is to create like a co a cohesive collection of entities that kind of ignite the way the legal industry does business. And in doing that, we split up the law firm into a law firm. We set a marketing company into a, attorney group truly. Now, whether it actually helps other lawyers do marketing paid marketing mostly. And then we have actually, what's funny is banned database and Jalya actually have partnered in database. As now part of the stellium as well. And so that company does, app development, like post-integration work for a lot of CRMs which is very insightful. We learned a lot about the industry and how it, how the machinery turns. And we're all kind of United under this common thing. And the idea came from my buddy. We were at dinner after this kind of brand exercise where we all had everyone participate and I gave him the full story. And he goes some. You guys are planets revolving around the same sun, right? So there is like no one lives on the sun, but it's the heat source of the solar system. So like you define that sun what do you call the sun? What are the values of the sun? What's important. But the actual companies are rotating around it. You're all as a collection going the same direction, but you did not necessarily on the same planet. So it's a planet law firm plan and marketing planet, a dev shop. And each one of those plans make total sense. To the outside world, to the business world. And so I would say what's next for us is really just continuing that transition from thinking, our law firm doing it all and our marketing, doing it all for us to completely putting that on his head and saying, how do we, are we the best in the world as something as a law firm? And we do a few things that I would say I would argue we are at the cutting edge including our class work that we're doing, that we're creating a lot of, case law around the country on. So we do a lot of that in house, but besides that, I was like, let's go work with the best attorneys. I was watching like Joe fried, like big trucking lawyer, tracking an attorney. You may know him. And I was watching him talk and like him talking about the courtroom and people sitting there, it's just wanting to watch him go to court. Lawyers. Let's make him like, let's be, let's not think we all have to be iron man. Let's build suits, so like how can we equip him with the suit around the man? Like how can we equip him with technology and how can we get him the cases that are best to help the best people? How can we market for people that want to go with the best firms and create data standards that are going actually empower individuals to find justice and get access to justice themselves as well. That's the goal of the mossion.
Chris Dreyer:
Jeez, there's so much there that I would love to pick your brain a ton on this. I think that's an interesting discussion is like how that plays into status versus wealth. Because I could see the status oriented may not want to, give away where the, they may be one of the center of attention but really from a wealth orientation it's, it is the true best.
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah. Now I like both of those frameworks core and context. It's funny. We actually talk about core, like our core offerings, our core capabilities a lot, and we incubate anything that's not to say, is this something we want to pull into our core? Or do we want to admit is not something we would need to fold in. And and so that, that is a. That's one of those one of my favorite philosophers, Its like CJ Young, and he talks about looking at the reflection for the first time and seeing your face and being, being shocked at the person it's gonna, it's one of those moments, like looking at the reflection and saying, is that me? Or should it not be me? And a lot of lawyers really struggle with saying. I'm not, I can't do it all. We're all David fighting Goliath, but then we want to come on and, try to play business too in our spare time, it just doesn't work. And so you gotta pick your greatness.
Chris Dreyer:
That's an amazing point of view. And Anthony, this has been amazing. Wait, we may have to have a part to to discuss this in more detail, one final question here, so where can people go to learn more about you and just connect with you and and what's yourre doing?
Anthony Johnson:
Yeah. Yourattorney.com is my law firm. Obviously I mentioned stellium we have stellium.co right now. It's a teaser. We're going to funnel the narrative, the story of all of our companies through there. So that'd probably a good touch point for anyone just interested in the topics we've covered here. But other than that, I'm pretty I'm around dial sevens in Arkansas and area code.
Chris Dreyer:
Investible law firms may change the way attorneys think about building their practice from the start. Future exit strategies might look more like a franchise than a succession plan. Selling part, or all of your firm is an option that never existed before. But to get there requires a new way of looking at the firms value. Anthony sees integration options as the secret sauce, placing an emphasis on collaboration and connection. I'd like to think Anthony Johnson from Johnson, Firm, for sharing a story with us. And I hope you gained some valuable insights from the conversation you've been listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer if you liked this episode, leave us a review. We'd love to hear from our listeners. I'll catch you on next. Week's PIM with another incredible guest and all the strategies you need to master personal injury marketing.
