Chris Dreyer:
You go to law school to learn how to practice law, but when you step into the managing partner role, suddenly being a great attorney isn't enough. You have to figure out how to actually run a business.
Sarah Perez:
They realize so much of my time went into that management side. There's times when I love doing that part and there's times that I love being the advocate, the lawyer.
Chris Dreyer:
When Sarah Perez took over her father's practice right at the start of the pandemic, the succession plan went completely out the window. She had to master operations, hiring, and forecasting on the fly. To do it, she tapped into community.
Sarah Perez:
PLU, I've been to some of the AHA national meetings. The Nevada Trial Lawyers Association puts on embrace your inner badass.
Chris Dreyer:
There's no shortage of PI communities out there, but you have to know how to pull the right operational levers for yourself and for your firm. Not only will you learn valuable skills, but if it's done correctly, you might also directly grow your business.
Sarah Perez:
Some of the biggest cases that have been financially the highest that I've received are actually referrals from my colleagues and colleagues who are doing the same work that I'm doing.
Chris Dreyer:
This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. Today, Sarah Perez of Perez & Perez Law in Seattle pulls back the curtain on her unique journey to managing partner. We talk about building a team of processes that actually stick, keeping your talent aligned, and surviving the brutal cash acceleration cycle of PI. Let's get into it.
You just celebrated, I think, 20 years legal industry. So, first, congrats on that. I like to start off with a win. So, what's something current, something that comes to mind that you're pumped about?
Sarah Perez:
Well, it's hard to say anything other than as a Seattle fan, the Seahawks, but professionally, I've had some great victories recently. One of the small victories I'd say is hiring two new team members in the last about six or seven months. I consider that a small victory, even though it's quite a large victory because turnover and new team members and training is exhausting, expensive. And when you find the right team members, it's wonderful. So, I'm really excited about my two team members that have come on. One was June of 2025 and one was November of 2025. Both are fully remote. One is a litigation attorney who I've worked with in the past, who is fantastic and I'm really happy to have her back. The other is an intake and client management consultant who works with our clients and makes sure that we have great contact with our clients. And one is international, one is local. So, that dynamic has been interesting. So, when you say recent victories and wins, that's exactly what I think of as my team.
Chris Dreyer:
That's amazing. I had a call earlier today. I was with our creative director and they had all these ideas for the design department. And at the end, I told them, I was like, "I feel like a yes man." I was like, "But it's because you have good team members that you can trust and it's like they're great at their job and it makes me feel good." So, you've got a unique story. You started your career with your father and eventually, you've transitioned, you're the managing partner. So, I want to talk about that because I've talked to Terry Crouppen and Andy Crouppen and you've got Rick Harris and Josh Harris. And you want to do things differently. You want to come in and make an impact. And so, when you first took over leadership, what did it look like? What's some of the first things you've changed?
Sarah Perez:
Sure. So, leadership, there was a succession planning. I worked with my father and we would have celebrated 20 years together this last December. I started with him as a receptionist, literally putting together the pieces of the new firm that he started in Washington. And then it really grew from there that I had the aptitude. I enjoyed the work and I loved working with my father. So, that was a nice benefit. But when that transition occurred, the plan was that my mom, who was our office manager, was going to retire in January of 2020. My father was planning on retiring in June of 2020. And you can imagine lots of things happened that changed that. We had a pretty good victory on a case in February, and when he saw the writing on the wall with the pandemic and what was going to happen, that success and planning really shifted and changed.
From the management side, we do so many different things, hats. Not only are you a lawyer, are you talking with your clients every day, you're answering the phones sometimes. Even in the largest firms, you're doing all of those things. And then marketing, bringing in new clients, connections, professional organizations, continuing education. So, for me, I was really enjoying the client management, the networking, and the connection part, but I really didn't have any of that experience. So, I slowly started to learn through professional organizations, working with my mom in transition planning, working with my father. And as they say, all good plans when life happens, they go to the wayside. So, that really changed when the pandemic happened. And so, I started taking over some of his cases. I took over primary responsibility for hiring and management, and I realized so much of my time went into that management side, that hat.
And there's times when I love doing that part and there's times that I love being the advocate, the lawyer, but it's really one of the things I've learned about that transition is that balance. How do you learn the skills? How do you trust delegation and trust your team? And then just try to give yourself enough time to be able to do as much as you can.
Chris Dreyer:
A lot of the audience listening wants to hear, how do you get cases, right? So, how do you think about business development? How do you think about attracting cases?
Sarah Perez:
Sure. So, some of the biggest cases that have been financially the highest that I've received are actually referrals from my colleagues and colleagues who are doing the same work that I'm doing. I think there can be a mindset that it's a small pipeline that we're all fighting for the same kinds of cases. I haven't found that necessarily to be true. I know there's suggestions that you want to connect and network and what's the value of connecting and networking other than just the traditional meet and greets, but you really do develop relationships through professional conferences. I know that there's a colleague of mine who has become a mentor for me early in my career. We started talking about cases. I went to a couple of his conferences that he was leading related to specifically certain areas that I found I was in alignment, certain strategies for litigation, a full court press approach.
And then we decided to work together on a couple cases and he wound up referring me cases that he was conflicted out because of multiple individuals in a car, for instance. And as I mentioned, that was one of my larger cases early in my career. So, when we talk about different avenues of cases and how they come through, I think professional networking has been big for me. Not only do I learn a lot, but you start to understand and value the different aspects of your colleagues and areas specifically that they might be an expert in. So, I've started to build out my own niche and I think that's very important. A couple of the referrals that I've gotten early on in my career were through certain providers. I had a chiropractor actually walk into my office because he lived down the street and I was close by.
And he said, "Hey, I have a client who has this injury. The statute of limitations is coming up. I'm looking for a lawyer to help him." And usually, you hear those words and you think, "Oh, the statute's coming up, that's problematic. There's going to be a lot of facts that are dependent. That's never great to get involved late in a case." But I noticed that if his doctor was supportive of him and so passionate about representing him and helping him, that he was actually taking the file to go to a lawyer's office, that might make a difference. And so, that doctor, just being open to hearing what he had to say and ultimately representing that client, he wound up referring me other cases. So, I think the thing that's been beneficial for me is staying connected with people in my professional realm, whether it's from my former life in criminal defense and just letting people know that this is the type of work that I do, and also knowing that it's the type of work that I don't do.
So, there's been people who have reached out to me for certain types of cases and I've said, "I don't handle medical malpractice cases, but these are the people that I would trust." And giving a warm handoff to them because I think somebody early on in my career said that you'll make the most on the cases you don't take. And I think that was a valuable lesson early on. And so, making sure to hand off certain types of clients to certain professionals and creating the types of cases that I enjoy working on, I think it just builds relationships and referrals go both ways. I really believe that in any state that we're in, that that's applicable.
Chris Dreyer:
I think so, too. I think that the go giver you give without thinking of receive and then you do and it just happens. And that karma just builds up and that reciprocity karma, that's amazing. Are there any, a Vistage, EO, TLU, like what events do you like going to?
Sarah Perez:
Yeah. So, you mentioned TLU. So, I had a specific case that had a track at TLU that I was really interested in. It was a negligent security case. And so, I saw that they were at Huntington Beach. So, I went down there and I had a great time getting to know a bunch of the people in that community. I loved that it was just small workshop-y and just a whole day on a certain track. And so, I've really enjoyed the TLU approach, as well as that community. And so, I definitely am a fan of them. I've been to some of the AHA national meetings and I think it's interesting to really connect with such a variety of different practitioners, especially in the civil realm. There's offshoots for women lawyers. There's a great organization. The Nevada Trial Lawyers Association puts on Embrace Your Inner Badass and it's for women only once a year in March in San Diego.
And so, you have all these incredible women trial lawyers that get together and they talk about their victories, they talk about their losses, they talk about all the things you would do and it's really incredible when you have a room of all women get together and the support that they provide each other and just the camaraderie. So, you have, I think there's so many different organizations that have been really incredible that not only support each other, but you can tap into them when you need to for networking purposes, for educational purposes. A lot of great CLE companies are out there. There's also how to manage a small law firm that really talks us through the different aspects of running firm, which I think is incredibly beneficial because so much of what we do can be running a firm and not just being a lawyer every day. So, those are some of my favorites and I try to go to them as much as possible.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. Great organizations, all of those. We've had Arjan on the show before, his set-up, certainly a great community. There's several out there and you have your peers to support and you become friends with them and then you get cases that way. And I've been in agency masterminds and it's like sometimes, you outgrow what you're being taught from a tactical perspective, but it's like, I don't really want to cancel because I've got my people in there.
Finding your people and building a collaborative network is a massive strategic advantage, but once those high value referrals start pouring in, you need a machine that can actually handle them. If your internal processes are chaos, you're just going to burn out your team and leave money on the table, which brings us to the dreaded three layer acronym every visionary owner hates, but every successful firm needs, SOPs.
So, the managing partner side, talk to me about some of those processes and what changes you made. Did you go in and do a scaling up or EOS? Like what things did you go in from the operation side?
Sarah Perez:
Sure. So, I have a team member that I've worked with where we've been developing the operational side together and there's been a couple organizations that I've worked with. So, I started with Crisp and I had a great experience with them focusing on how you are as a manager, really focusing on the customer experience, not necessarily in the marketing side, but in the relationship side and becoming a better manager side and really assessing and putting KPIs, so key performance indicators and really tracking those. So, that was something that's been very important to me. The CEO lawyer also has a style. He has a very, very methodical approach to being very precise about decisions we make as lawyers. So, much of it seems to be either emotionally or reactionary on, "Oh, well, can I scale up? Well, I can only do so much now if I had another person, I probably could do more." I think the biggest part for me was understanding how to really assess the work that we're doing, right?
Is it demands out? Is it clients in? Is it settlement checks in? Is it cases referred to litigation? Really categorizing those because I think one of the things I've struggled with early on was really delegating and feeling confident enough of if my vision is being effectuated and that client relationship, how do I keep that client relationship? But then, on the balance, there's so much of what we do isn't just client management, isn't just case development, is all of the other aspects. So, I think some of the things that I've had to really focus in on is looking at some professional development that really focuses on my growth as a manager and really assessing where are we at with the numbers, what makes sense to bring in another person. If I'm going to bring in a team member, what responsibilities are they going to have? And so much of that is based on how much training that you can develop yourself and really bringing a team member in.
So, sitting down and really thinking about what the process is, being confident that there's an actual process in place, because so much of that is you as the lawyer, the more experience we get, the better we get, the more confident we get. It's just second nature of developing case facts and developing strategies and client relationships. We need to take a step back and sit down and say, "Okay, what are these processes?" And not just developing processes that can be emulated for our consistency purposes, but also sitting back and every once in a while, reassessing those. So, it's not just do, do, do, it's you got to stop and think about it sometimes. And I find that it can be frustrating because you want to be so productive on a case side, assessing what's working, what's not working, having a sit down after a victory is fantastic what worked, but then also sitting down and really thinking about the losses, why did things happen a certain way?
How do I build on that? If I had a bad situation here, what could I have done in the future? I would say hold people accountable, but I think people hold themselves accountable if they're the right team member. And then just making sure your processes are being followed and understanding that sometimes, those processes can't be followed, being flexible enough to be mindful that we should reassess things going. So, I think the best thing I've had to do is stop, take advice from my team members, and hear what they're having to say about what's working for certain processes and not just for scalability, because I know scalability is a popular word these days, but really for consistency purposes, what works? How do we keep that system consistent so that it's not me having to say, "Well, when was the last time I talked to this client? When was the last time this happened?"
Because I think people want to be productive and want to enjoy their job and want to have good leadership. So, I think tracking information, having systems in place that allows that to happen, meeting with my team members once a quarter or once a year, tracking their goals and giving them opportunity for growth carries a lot because I think what it really comes down to is our team members do so much for us and so much for our clients in turn.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I agree. I think everyone goes through this process when you're an owner or operator. It's like you read Michael Gerber's E-Myth and you're like, "I need to document SOPs like crazy." Then you go through this phase where it's like, "Okay, now, I have too many SOPs. Now, let's narrow it down to the most important ones." And because documenting is one thing, but getting people to follow them and understand your processes is a whole different ballgame.
Sarah Perez:
Yeah. Buy in, having people buy into what you think works or being responsible enough as an administrator, knowing that sometimes, the things you come up with don't necessarily work. So, I think being flexible with your team members of trying to find something so that you have a process that you all agree on, being open to hearing things that will work and don't work, and then being flexible and changing them, and then trying not to do that too much. You want to stay the course to see if something works. Maybe it just needs to have some of the issues worked out and it should work. So, not jumping ship too quickly on processes. One of the challenges I find in personal injury is cash flow. You can plan every day for what's going to happen, what's happened before. But I think one of the biggest things is how to value a case, having metrics, setting client expectations.
And I think some of those most challenging aspects that we have as lawyers in the personal injury field can be mitigated by having processes in place to help your clients understand what's happening, to help your team members understand what's happening, to help you future plan. If you have a case that's coming, how much of your time can you put into a trial? What does that look like? How many cases can you realistically accept? Because sometimes, I want to accept almost every case that comes into the door that meets our criteria, but that doesn't always benefit... The pipeline is important, but also if you're not pushing cases through the process or the system, that doesn't help either. So, I think there's a good balance. And if you have a hundred hours to be able to look at, you need to spend time, dedicate time to making sure you're doing things the right way. So, yeah, I feel like I'm learning something new and having to learn something new almost every day.
Chris Dreyer:
Documenting your processes is only half the battle. Getting your team to actually buy in is where the real work happens. But even if you build a flawless team and a massive pipeline of cases, you still have to survive the silent killer of personal injury, the cash acceleration cycle. It is wild to me how rarely this gets talked about. We all go to conferences to hear about lead gen and massive verdicts, but few actually talk about the financial reality of fronting costs and waiting years for a check. Unlike hourly billing, personal injury is a completely different financial gain. Here's how Sarah structures her firm's finances so she doesn't just make money. She actually keeps it.
That cash acceleration cycle on PI, it can be so brutal. It's interesting, like so many other professional services businesses, it's like you get paid upfront, there's the hourly from the criminal defense, you came from criminal defense, you got the hourly, you get the cashflow component. But PI, I guess what are just a few things that you look at, line of credit with an Esquire Bank, the Profit First, Mike Michalowicz, like what are you doing to kind of forecast or help you on the cash side?
Sarah Perez:
That's a good question, trying to always optimize and figure out what's the best way of doing it, especially since we get paid at the end. Ideally, if we're looking at... And one of the things I've tried to talk to my teammates about is looking at how many cases, how long it takes a case to settle? So, really understanding and tracking data and then utilizing it. So, if I get a case from signup to end is let's say 6 months, 6 to 10 months on average, depending on the injuries and so forth, then I need to make sure that I'm planning that if my intake drops below a certain amount, that's okay if, for instance, I have cases in other areas because they will get me to the next finish line.
So, I think the best thing you can do is track the data around your cases of how long they're closing, because then you'll start to get a sense of, "Okay, well, if I have 10 cases in this stage, well, then in six to seven months from now, they should be at this stage and then I should be able to plan accordingly, or if I need to have three months out or I'm in a trial or if I'm going to go on vacation, how do I manage that?"So, I think that's one thing, trying to really assess where you're at.
I think working different aspects, not focusing everything I can on bringing cases in, but also closing them and incentivizing my team members on different quarters to do different priorities. Let's get as many cases out into demand status, let's focus on this. And so, I think that helps. But then also, knowing when you need to prioritize, there are so many different companies out there that help with litigation funding, to help with making sure you have a line of credit and trying to be as conscientious as you can when those bigger settlements come in, or just those smaller ones that are grinding through most of them to put a little bit of money aside so that you can future plan.
And I think one of the biggest things that I've... I worked with a profit coach who she had talked about not just... Her job wasn't to make me more money, it was to keep the money that I had. And so, she was really, she had some strategies of like budgeting and those kinds of things are old school notions, but having like different bank accounts with different amounts and this is what I do here or if my run rate is let's say 25,000 a month, then if I'm going to do a certain type of case, I need to be prepared to be able to have that set up. So, if I'm going to be putting money into the bank every month, on first of the month, I would hypothetically put $25,000 in that bank and that's just my necessary expenses, rents, bar dues, payroll.
And then you have another account that could be excess spending where if I know my run rate is 25,000 a month, then that has to pay the bills. And if I settle a case for double that, well, do I want two months of run rate or do I want to allocate? So, I think planning, really understanding what you spend money on. And then when you start to get granular at looking at your bank statements, you start thinking, "Well, I didn't need that or I didn't need that." And being conscientious about that. So, if you like to future plan, I think having that run rate is really important and beneficial. And then you start to look at your expenses in a different way. You start to look at your team member hiring in different ways. And so, I think for me, working with a profit coach was really beneficial because I started to look at how I was spending my money and the income that I was coming from.
And you hear about put 10% away for savings and do this, but when I really broke down what I was spending money on and the expenses, and something you talked about earlier, the transition from being an employee, being a partner, to be a managing partner, working with my father, Sarah as the employee was not as conscientious about then Sarah as the managing partner with going to conferences and doing different things. So, I think we talk about the idea of budgeting and there's so many different versions. You see people who put $100 in an envelope and they save that for this. Or if you're looking at future planning, I think the most beneficial thing that I've done is really knowing what my mandatory expenses are, putting enough money to fund those mandatory expenses for certain amounts of months. And then every once in a while, a certain type of case will come along and I'll think, "Well, it sounds like a great case. There's good value, but that's going to take so much of my time that I'm not going to be able to take all these other cases."
So, in the past, when I would assess the value of a case, if there's every once in a while, I'll do a upfront fee for criminal consultation or I'll do certain types of cases that are hourly, I'll say, "Well, I used to value that based on what I think the market would hold, or I'd value that out where I think what representation should cost." Now, I don't do that at all. I just say, "Well, if it's going to take four months of my time, my run rate of four months if I'm doing nothing else is this and this is my fee."
Chris Dreyer:
I think it's a great piece of advice. Thank you for the transparency.
Sarah Perez:
Yeah.
Chris Dreyer:
It's something that's not taught. Look, I've done 300+ episodes and we don't talk about cash flow and different challenges and how to handle it. So, thank you for sharing. For our audience that has questions about this podcast, that wants to connect with you, what's the best way to get in touch with you?
Sarah Perez:
Sure. So, my website is PerezAndPerezLaw. My name is Sarah. So, sarah@perezandperezlaw, you can email me or you can reach out to our firm. We have, as I mentioned, a team member who's answering our phones directly internally, and they always know how to get ahold of me. So, reach out to the website, reach out by email, or give us a call. I'm happy to answer any questions or just connect with our community.
Chris Dreyer:
Amazing. Sarah, thank you for coming on the show.
Sarah Perez:
Of course. Thanks for having me.
Chris Dreyer:
Huge thanks to Sarah Perez for following back the curtain on her journey today, making the leap from practicing law to actually running a business is no joke, yet to nail your operations, protect your run rate, and master your cash flow to survive. And as Sarah pointed out, sometimes, the smartest financial move you can make is referring a case out. But to be in a position where you can afford to cherry-pick the best cases, you need a predictable, relentless pipeline. That's what we deliver at Rankings.io. We help elite personal injury law firms, dominate their markets, and sign the cases that actually move the needle. Head it over to Rankings.io to learn more. I'm Chris Dreyer. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. We'll catch you next time.
