Chris Dreyer:
If you're the kind of trial lawyer who refuses to coast, who wants to win bigger, have more impact, and lead with courage, this one's for you.
Nick Rowley:
We need more trial lawyers. We need more people who are willing to go the distance and fight for the right reasons.
Chris Dreyer:
Because every generation has its legend, and in the courtroom, that legend is Nick Rowley.
Nick Rowley:
I was trying 10 to 15 cases a year for 15 years.
Chris Dreyer:
Nick breaks down how he prepares for war in the courtroom, the psychology, the presence, the discipline.
Nick Rowley:
You have to have the courage to go in and fight and lose, and have the fortitude to pick yourself back up and move forward and go do it again.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm Chris Dreyer and this is Personal Injury Mastermind. Let's get into it. I think you just crossed like 3.5 billion in verdicts and settlements over... What's a recent case, something that you're working on that's really, really firing you up?
Nick Rowley:
Well, recently I tried three cases that were back to back. Disputed liability cases. The defense was swinging for defense verdicts on all of them with low shitty offers. In the same courthouse, and they were three multi-eight figure record verdicts too for the types of cases that they were. And I don't think that's ever been done in history where a lawyer's come in and done that right before this string of verdicts. And those cases resulted in the largest medical malpractice verdict in world history for 412 million. Another $100 million verdict on another case, a toxic tort case. And then there was a $42 million result in between. So I'm very proud of that and proud of my team because I don't just try cases alone. I try cases with other amazing trial lawyers. We don't climb Everest alone, do we? We do it as a team.
Chris Dreyer:
I've talked to a ton of trial lawyers. And a lot of them are like, they're just beaten down after trial, right? They got to go to the spa, go out in the woods to kind of recharge. It seems like, I mean, have the energy to go back to back, how do you mentally prepare to take on the consecutive trials like that?
Nick Rowley:
I like the fight, especially when I'm fighting for the right cause for the right people. It's what I do. I try cases, and my partners are the same way. We love being in the courtroom. There's nothing greater about the practice of law than being able to stand up for somebody and be their voice. And to take generational harm and generational tragedy, and pursue and find and win generational justice. There's nothing like it. Some people out there, I suppose, do drugs to get high. I'm high on life and high on what I do.
Chris Dreyer:
It's interesting you mention this. I just heard a pod recently. They were talking about frequency. It's like low frequency is like fear, depression, and then you go up the triangle to and then you got love. It's like happiness, and at the very top it's like this authenticity, and it's like the highest frequency. So it's like doing what you love, being authentic. So that kind of speaks to what you just said there.
Nick Rowley:
You mentioned fear. You have to take fear and make it fuel. Fear is fuel. To live in fear, what good is that going to do? I don't just try cases that I know I'm going to win. Every one of the cases that I've tried in the past nine months, which there's been a total of about $700 million in jury verdicts in the past nine months, every one of those cases are cases that I could have lost, and that many people would have lost. But I made it my life's purpose to win those trials. When I go to trial, it's life or death. But sometimes you die. You have to emerge from the ashes like a Phoenix, if you will, and find that fire within you and keep fighting. That's what makes a real trial lawyer.
I believe that there are so many people out there that have that within them. They just don't know it. They just don't know it. I've seen so many lawyers that I've worked with or trained or that have come to our trial by human programs or that I've been to programs with and seen that fire ignite within them, and then they go out and do great things. But it takes effort. It takes effort, and it takes some courage and belief in yourself. And most importantly, belief in the people we represent and belief in justice.
Chris Dreyer:
I had the pleasure of having Brandon Yosha on, and I believe you helped him with an early case. I also, I spoke with Charles Buist, Spetsas Buist, and another amazing human. So talk to me about the mentorship side of things, and giving back to the other trial attorneys and just that part of your journey.
Nick Rowley:
I'm just paying forward what was given to me. I've had great mentors throughout the years. There was Gerry Spence. He was monumental in my life, and tucked me under his wing when I was a young lawyer with a couple years of practice and about 20 jury trials under my belt. He looked me in the eye and told me that I could be one of the greatest trial lawyers in history if I did the work and if I found my true self and brought that into the courtroom. And I know that he told other people that too, and they've gone on to become some of the greatest trial lawyers in history. So without that, I wouldn't be where I am today. I'd be betraying my purpose and betraying my gifts if I didn't do the same and pay that forward and do the same for others. Gerry Spence used to compare being in the courtroom to being in the ring. Gerry Spence loved boxing. I used to go to boxing matches with him.
Chris Dreyer:
Wow.
Nick Rowley:
I can't think of anything else, other than maybe cage fighting or one-on-one gladiators going against each other, I can't think of anything else that compares to being a trial lawyer.
Chris Dreyer:
Obviously at this point in your career, no one has the numbers that you're putting up on the board from a referral perspective. But what do you think about the younger trial attorney wanting to get the case and that opportunity?
Why Rowley believes you should “try any case anywhere, anytime”, and how taking the hard and small cases built his foundation.
Nick Rowley:
Do what I did. Do what a lot of the other great trial lawyers did. Try any case anywhere anytime against anyone if it's for a good person and the right cause. Any trial. And there are a lot of cases that need to be tried. When someone tells me I can't get jury trials, how do I get into the courtroom? Cut it out. Just put yourself out there.
I was trying 10 to 15 cases a year for 15 years. I had a trial, a case, or a case settle, I'd put myself out there and I'd have a trial the next day, or the following Monday. There's so many cases out there that need to be tried, and there's never been a more important time to be a trial lawyer than now. You just have to be willing to scrap. And sorry, not all the cases are going to be glory cases, and sorry you're not going to win them all. You have to have the courage to go in and fight and lose, and have the fortitude to pick yourself back up and move forward and go do it again.
I lost three cases in a row 13 years ago. And I thought, boy, I questioned whether I should even be a trial lawyer anymore. And then metaphorically, I slapped myself in the face a few times, and said, cut it out. Get back into the ring. And I did. So that's what you got to do. I tried, I can't tell you how many cases I tried that were small, little cases. They wouldn't pay $15,000. And so I'd say, well, we're going into the ring. We're going to take you to the mat. Let's go. And I'd go try a case that I'm saying pay 15,000 and they're only willing to pay $7,000. And I'd go in and get a $20,000 verdict. I'd be doing cartwheels. Looking at my opponent, I just kicked your ass you cheap, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to say bad words. I'm trying to be better. I'm a father. I need to model myself in a non-profane way.
And then it would be a six figure case. They'd say, "You know what? We're only going to pay 50 grand." And I'd say, "Well, the case is worth 150." Then next thing you know, I'm taking cases like that and getting millions of dollars on them. Then they became million dollar cases, and they're only offering a couple hundred thousand dollars. I'm saying, "That's not right. This case is worth at least a couple million." And lo and behold, the jurors are giving me over 10 million. Then became eight figure cases. They don't want to pay eight figures. Well, now they're paying hundreds of millions. That's how it goes. You just got to go in and keep trying cases.
Now, back a couple months ago, I went in and tried a case that was a case I knew I was probably going to lose. It was a premises liability case. It wasn't an eight figure case. And people are saying, "Why would you try a case like that?" Well, because it was for a friend. It was for his daughter. He's a fellow trial lawyer. And what does it say about me if now that I can do all the big ones that I won't go in and try a case like that that's tough? What? Am I afraid what are people going to say if I lose? Once you start to think that way, you're not really a real trial lawyer anymore.
Chris Dreyer:
Wow, that's powerful.
Nick Rowley:
You're somebody who just wants to win the easy ones, or maybe you're just too good. And if that's who you are, then I really don't want to talk to you. And I have nothing to teach you. Change your ways. Pull your head out of your own ass and go out there and start representing real people and fighting. Because doing cases like that is what got you to where you are. Never forget where you came from. And if there are lawyers out there that were able to start at big firms and they only did big cases from the get go, well, God bless you, but that ain't me and those aren't the people that I teach.
Chris Dreyer:
I love that.
What he tells younger lawyers who feel shut out of the courtroom, and why opportunities are more available than they think.
Nick Rowley:
You want to learn how to try cases? Put yourself out there as a criminal defense attorney. Learn from some criminal defense attorneys and start taking cases pro bono. I've been doing pro bono criminal defense my entire career. I've never lost one. All acquittals or dismissals. And I do those cases. And if I get a call, and I believe that that person is wrongfully being accused or overzealously prosecuted, and I believe in the case, I find time and I do it. Do pro bono work. Try cases for the right reasons. And sometimes try cases where you're not going to make any money. And then how does it feel to win when it's not about money? It's just about winning and doing what's right because it's right. That feels good. So do some of those. Don't come here and tell me or anybody else that you can't get into the courtroom and you can't find cases to try. That's a bunch of baloney.
Chris Dreyer:
Jon Davidi yesterday, he's a younger trial attorney, had a nice 40 million plus verdict. He told me something that really stuck with me. He said, "I wanted to do enough trials until they stopped feeling like an away game and they started feeling like a home game." I thought, oh man, that's good.
Nick Rowley:
I like that.
Chris Dreyer:
Talk to me about the team. Talk to me about how do you set yourself up for success? I've had individuals, Sean Claggett on, big data, had other individuals on talking about a lot of these large focus groups. And talk to me about the team and how you approach a big case.
Nick Rowley:
Well, I've said it before. I was at the first JuryBall seminar out in Madrid, Spain earlier this year. I believe in God. I also believe in big data. It's good stuff. If you have a case that has... I mean, big data's expensive, right? So you have to justify it. You're not going to spend $30,000 to do big data on a case where the likely verdict is only $100,000 because you're doing a disservice to your client. You're spending money that you're not going to get back.
But they do have a more condensed, easier version of big data now, which I think costs somewhere around 8 or 10,000. But if you can't do big data, do focus groups. Put something out on Craigslist, get a group of people into a room. Present your case. There are a number of different ways to do focus groups and there's a lot of information out there. I know Sean Claggett's done hundreds. I've done hundreds. And Sean Claggett, by the way, has one of the biggest hearts in this business, one of the greatest minds. And he is one of the greatest trial lawyers, not just presently, but in history. He is amazing.
If anyone out there doesn't know who Sean Claggett is, look him up and start following him, watch his trials on CVN. He's amazing. Just a great, great human being who I've been getting to know over the past couple years. And he's become a really dear friend and an ally. Believes in social justice. Just a great, great guy. He takes a different approach than I do with a lot of things. So I've learned things from him that I think, well, that I really don't teach.
So the one thing I would also tell you is go out there and learn from everybody. Learn from everybody. If you go to the whatever program or seminar and learn from some great trial lawyer who has his technique and he tells you that it's his way or the highway, or only do it this way, or you have to use these words, and don't go train anywhere else, that should raise a red flag. There's something to learn from everybody, something to learn from everybody. So I would say that do focus groups, do big data. If you don't prepare your case and you don't test your case, you're not going to know your case. One thing that I do when I'm doing a focus group or big data is I'm looking to see how is it that I'm going to lose my case? Where are the danger points at? What are the things I need to really worry about?
Chris Dreyer:
Like that advanced retrospective. These are the things that could go wrong, and try to solve for those in advance. Do you get that from the criminal defense side?
Nick Rowley:
First off, setting yourself up for success is saying something and sticking to it. So I'm in a mediation today. I can't tell you what the case is. I can tell you it's a police shooting case. And the mediator just pulled us in and said, okay. Because I said, if they don't offer their SIR, their self-insured retention within an hour, the city, I can't tell you what city, then we're done. And so she came back, she goes, "They've offered the SIR." She goes, "What's your bottom line?" I said, "30 million. $29,999,000 will be rejected, and I'll go get more."
And I mean it. And my team is with me. The clients are with me. And if they don't agree to pay that, and take that to the city council and get that approval and the tower of insurance, because when these people say that they're self-insured, they don't have the money, it's always a lie. They have a JPA, which is backed by a tower of insurance that goes up to hundreds of millions of dollars. It's how these public entities work, but they lie to you about it. They don't pay, then we'll go get more. And that's that.
So you set yourself up for success by believing in your case, believing in your number, and not settling for anything less. That's how this goes. And how it's going to play out, I don't know. They're either going to come back and say they're going to take that to the city council or not. And then there will be a hell fire of news media and litigation. And I will get in front of a jury and get a whole lot more. But you have to believe it. You have to believe it in every cell in your body.
Chris Dreyer:
And it comes through, the intensity.
How he builds a team of lawyers driven by the right “why”: people focused on quality, justice, and standing up for real clients.
Nick Rowley:
So there's a team of trial lawyers at my firm, Trial Lawyers for Justice, and we have offices and partners coast to coast in most states in this country. And I don't think there's a state in the USA where we haven't tried a case. What I do is I try to find like minded people that believe in the jury trial method of achieving justice, people that aren't focused on quantity, but rather focused on quality, the quality of their representation, the quality of the result that they get, not just the numbers.
But what is it that we're trying to accomplish here? What is it that we're trying to accomplish? In each case, what's the why. Ask yourself that question, what's the why? Is the why this person needs a life care plan? Is the why that there needs to be a verdict that's going to effectuate change and be big enough that it's going to have a ripple effect and make sure something like this doesn't happen again to anyone else or anyone else in the country? Why are you doing it? What's your motivation?
And when I find people that have the right answers to those questions, I oftentimes say you want to be part of something that's bigger than anybody's name, that's Trial Lawyers for Justice. It's not the Nick Rowley Law Firm or Rowley Trial Lawyers. Because at some point, I'm not going to be here on this Earth. We need something out there that's bigger than all of us. And that's the firm and the team that I'm working on building. And so far I've been really, really lucky.
What you all will see over the next six, eight months is some lawyers that are top lawyers from the defense industry, some of the best who are coming over to our side to become Jedi Knights, to fight for justice. The team that I hope to have five years from now will be absolutely unstoppable. But the way you build a team like that is by giving more than you take and being more generous than you could really imagine any other trial lawyer being. Because the problem with our profession and the problem with civil trial lawyers, sadly, and this isn't everybody, but this is a lot of them, is they're selfish, they're shortsighted, they're greedy, and they're not willing to give more than they take. They'd rather go out and buy a Rolls Royce or a Bentley than put a $100,000 into the right charity or into the right cause.
So there are a couple organizations that I've started. One is called Justice Watch, American Justice Watch, which is the answer to Judicial Watch, which is the organization that is run by the far right, which gets rid of our good judges and does everything they can to kill access to justice and civil rights in this country. So we need an organization that's going to hold judges accountable and that's going to preserve the integrity of our judiciary. And that's what Justice Watch is going to do. There's another organization called the Outer Realm that Sean Claggett and I are putting on our first seminar here in November. And it's kind of an invitation only thing to start this. It's going to be a national group that's focused on social justice and bettering our profession. There are a lot of other great organizations out there, but we're going to form one that matches with our values and our beliefs.
Chris Dreyer:
That's so selfless. It's so incredible. Because I think from where I sit is, on the other side, even though your State Farms and all the insurance companies, they're sharing data. But it seems like on this side, it's more fractured and less of that. And so I think this is an amazing step, amazing opportunity for those listening to be involved. So I think what you're doing is fantastic.
Nick Rowley:
Reach out. My email is N as in Nick, C as in Charles, R as in Rowley, at T as in Tom, L as in Larry, the number four, j.com. That's ncr@tl4j.com. My cell is 406-920-8200. You need advice on a case, I'll tell you what I think. I take calls on Saturdays, Sundays, all the time with lawyers who are in trial ready to pick a jury or preparing for closing argument, or lawyers that want help on a case and want me to help them find a trial lawyer who's capable of helping them bring it to the next level. I'm at a point in my career where I actually enjoy and am happier when I see others succeed in the courtroom. I've gone out and I have a lot of verdicts. I want to see you get one because then I sleep better at night because I know it's not all on my shoulders. There's more of us out there, and that's what we need. We need more trial lawyers. We need more people who are willing to go the distance and fight for the right reasons.
Chris Dreyer:
If you're the kind of lawyer who believes the work is bigger than you, reach out. Nick meant it when he said he takes calls from other lawyers. That generosity is what keeps this profession alive. I'm Chris Dreyer. This is Personal Injury Mastermind. Subscribe wherever you listen. And if you're ready for more cases, reach out to rankings.io.
