How radio advertising for personal injury firms compares to TV and streaming in cost and client reach
Chris Dreyer:
All right, we're back with another episode of Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm here with my guy, Gary Sarner. You probably know him from ROI 360, and if not, you definitely remember his shirts. Today's a little different. Five questions from me, five from him, no prep, just decades of PI marketing experience from TV versus radio, what really works on streaming to how long it actually takes to see results. Let's go. We got the behemoth TV and I'm going to put in there streaming. Streaming television, the Hulus versus radio. TV versus radio, why radio? sell me radio.
Gary Sarner:
I actually read an interesting stat last week. Less than 25% of 18 to 34-year-olds across America are watching traditional television, so they are on the street. Yet on the flip side, on radio, over 80% of Americans 18 to 34 years old are still listening to radio, not streaming radio, traditional terrestrial radio. Now there's your answer, but you need to do both.
Chris Dreyer:
So programmatic is this huge category. I hate the programmatic name or whoever came up with it because it's like streaming television, it's the audio, Pandora and Spotify, and it's display and it's a million things. It's very confusing, but I don't want to focus in on programmatic from the Pandora and Spotify. I am one of those that fall outside that 80%. I'm like, if I'm listening, I'm on Pandora. That's just what I listen to. I've taught it what stuff I like with the thumbs up and I can skip, and I have my likes and this, but I don't pay for the ads. But do you see the same strategies work for radio on Pandora, Spotify, or is it just the cost not commensurate? What do you think about those channels?
Gary Sarner:
So Pandora and Spotify obviously have built a spot in the space for people to listen, and I will tell you this, I despise the word audio because there's a difference between Pandora, Spotify, and radio. Now, those are unique channels and they are fun channels to curate what you want to listen to and like you said, it's learned who Chris Dreyer is and what music it should play. But the penetration of both of those channels is so small, Chris, and the cost per thousands to advertise on them are very high.
So I would put in the left bucket, Spotify, Pandora, and even podcasts. They're all important. The business that we are in, which is marketing law firms, so people find the best law firm in their market for them, needs to be wide and broad, not narrow and deep. So if you want to pay a lot of money to reach a small amount of people, very, very targeted, that's a great channel to go to. I'm not recommending it be a part of what you are doing in legal. Now, if we were going to sell the headphones on your head, we could go very, very narrow and very deep.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm sure you listen to the episode of me and James where we were talking about where our spins were for 100,000, a million, and at the end I'm like, "What's the most underrated, I think, is podcast." So tell me, from my vantage, the reason why I've always thought about podcasts is because it just saturation. There might be eight people on a TV channel, there might be several on a radio station, and I listen to podcasts every morning like I'm a 5:00 Amer, come to work, I'm listening to a couple pods or at least one good one. So why is it just the cost? You're hitting a repeat audience. That's one of my concerns is a repeat audience, but I guess radio has that too, if you like a certain station.
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Gary Sarner:
But so does TV. They all have repeat audiences, but in legal, with only 2% of the population that's going to get into a car accident this year and then narrow it to who may hire an attorney versus calling their insurance company. Your marketing dollars need to reach as many people as possible at the lowest cost per thousand possible, and then you need to be in front of them all the time. Because if you looked at the bullseye, anybody who lives outside of a major city is going to purchase a car at some point. Not everybody is going to need a personal injury attorney in their life.
Chris Dreyer:
You work with some of the biggest radio advertisers in the country, a ton of experience, decades now. You've heard different messaging, you've used different stations. How do you win? What's the recipe that you see now? What's the clear things that you've got to do to be successful on radio?
Gary Sarner:
Number one, do not buy the radio station that you listen to so you could hear your own ad notoriously across all advertising, and radio specifically. My 35 years stations and now four and a half years owning ROI 360+, the person in front of me always talks about their favorite radio station first, and I know that's what they want to buy. Sometimes it's correct, sometimes it's not. But what we really need to know is what the market looks like on television advertising, billboard advertising and radio advertising.
Truth be told, everybody wants to do TV first. Now is that ego? I don't know. There's great reach with television, but like your first question, it's changing. You need to be in more places. Billboards, they're great for branding and people drive by them at the same times every day, so static over digital because if you're not there for those eight seconds as they drive by, you're fucked. But radio, radio can be as targeted as it needs to be, and whether you want to reach the entire market, which is how we like to look at it, what is it going to take as an investment to own the entire radio market? And from there, we then start narrowing down, based upon their avatar.
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Chris Dreyer:
What's it take to be successful, then?
Gary Sarner:
It really takes three things to be successful with any of these mediums, including yours on the digital side. Number one, you have to have a big pair of balls because you have to make an investment. Number two, and this one is crucial, you must be patient because time and marketing heals everything as you write those checks month in and month out in year one and number three, and probably the most lost art out there, your creative must be perfect. And what is perfect? Perfect is you get to be intentional on your messaging, on air, on billboards, on TV and online. Be who you are, you can't be someone else. You aren't for everybody.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's take a firm, hypothetical firm. They're not known. They do have a brand. In a vacuum, just in general, how long does it take, if you have a sufficient budget, to start seeing a return, start seeing the calls come in for radio? And I'll position this every time I talk about TV with someone. We had Bachus & Schanker on a while back and he's like, "Look, don't expect a return for 12 months." 12 to 18 months is what you hear. You have more frequency on radio. That's one of the big pluses. Do you start seeing momentum faster in radio?
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Gary Sarner:
Wow, what a loaded question. First, every single firm is different. So where do we choose to begin with this investment? Do we go wide and go the whole market or do we go narrow and go after a piece of the market? The narrower you go, the longer it's generally going to take because you've chosen one specific group of people that you're going to target. If your creative is spot on. You may get lucky, and I'm not going to say who, but we did this with somebody who never advertised in business for 50 years, the lawyer's lawyers. And I met him at a conference and he came up to me, he says, "Wow, I love your presentation, but I'm a lawyer's lawyer. I go to trial all the time, but all these marketing firms are getting all these huge cases. Why?"
And it was probably the best layup question I ever had because I said, "They're doing one thing that you are not. They're inviting people to do business with them." So as we conversed and as we got to know one another, we decided by being intentional and doing ads different than everybody else, this will probably work for you, but it's going to hurt every time you write a check every month because it's going to take 18 months for you to see something. My line is that anybody who's new to marketing and trying to go up against all these huge advertisers, you're going to have brown underwear for the first three months and you're going to say, "This sucks. It's awful. I should never have done this. Should have taken my wife, my boyfriend, my better half on a vacation."
But the reality is it can work and it will work, if you're patient. Truth be told, month four, I got a phone call. "I want to add another market." I'm like, "Wow, you got a huge trucking case." He was like, "How do you know?" I said, "I know my business, just like you know your business, and I get these calls, and that's what happens." But the reality is building a brand today versus the firms that started 40 years ago is far more challenging, but it absolutely can be done. Trust the partner that you find and allow an expert to do what an expert does, just like your clients do at your firm.
Chris Dreyer:
I've had different clients use radio, and I wish I had a complete, a bigger data set, but from my experience, I've seen radio start to work quicker than TV. I think it's the frequency component, but the messaging has to be right, and all those things. You've been to a ton of events, way more than me. Who's the best speaker you've ever heard? You get to give me one person, has to be an attorney.
Gary Sarner:
Wow, that's a great question. This is actually very funny. I was at NTL 2024. It was the first session of the morning and I wanted to go and see who was going to be speaking. I ended up in a long conversation at breakfast and walked into this speaker's presentation about 15 minutes late, but I also had an appointment that I had to go to. So I was in there and I got to hear this person speak for approximately 10 minutes, and I was mesmerized, mesmerized like I've never been before, and I don't know who it is.
The next day, this person is walking into the bar at the hotel and he's in front of me. I'm not somebody that normally chases anyone, but I did quick step and tapped him on the shoulder and I said, "You should be a lawyer on TV. I saw you speak for about 10, 12 minutes yesterday, and it was unbelievable." He says to me, "Are you an attorney?" I said, "No, I'm not an attorney." He says, "What's your name?" I said, "Gary Sarner." I said, "What's your name?" He says, "Mark Lanier."
Chris Dreyer:
Oh wow. The GOAT.
Gary Sarner:
And again, knowing all about Mark Lanier and all the amazing things he's done as a trial attorney and as a human being, because I now follow him, it was so fitting that it was him. I've never been to his conference. I do plan to go one year. I don't know when, but from a perspective of an ad agency, I've been told people don't get up from their chairs when Mark is speaking. And you know what? I might be that one guy that had to get up and leave, and I was upset that I did not get to hear the rest of it. And one of my goals is to get to know him personally because I am very, very fond of what he does.
Chris Dreyer:
Unbelievable. Hey, if somebody's listening, can connect me with Mark, Mr. Lanier, would love him to have him on the show, so put that out there too. Okay. Ball's in your court. That's our five. Love it. So what you got for me?
Gary Sarner:
Wow. Okay, so my first question for Chris Dreyer, who inspires you and why?
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, that's a good one. When I was young, my uncle was a big inspiration. I grew up, at certain points, very poor, well water, no city water. I didn't understand at the time that we were poor, but I had a lot of side hustles, cleaning houses, flea markets, doing these things. I was never without. My parents always worked very hard, but I started to form a relationship with my uncle who was very successful CEO, very, very wealthy. It lifted my ceiling for what was possible, and it brought an awareness for wealth, and he's a good human too. You always hear the negative connotations of like, oh, this entrepreneur. The biggest ones we hear, the first thing that come to mind is they're all evil. Well, they're not all evil. They're capitalists. But yeah, my uncle, Alec Dreyer, was an inspiration early on.
Gary Sarner:
That's special and it has deep meaning. I like that. People matter, especially the ones we actually know.
Chris Dreyer:
Absolutely.
Gary Sarner:
You, Chris Dreyer, following in your uncle Alec's footsteps, have built an incredible business at Rankings.io.
Chris Dreyer:
Thank you.
Gary Sarner:
But outside of business, what does success look like to you?
Chris Dreyer:
Being a good husband and a good father.
Gary Sarner:
For sure.
Chris Dreyer:
I put tremendous energy into that and it's not easy for me. I think a lot of the entrepreneurs, it's hard to shut the brain off. I mean, the game of business for me is a game that I really enjoy and obsess about, but when I get home, I shut off the phone. I'm playing Hot Wheels on the floor with my son. I'm swimming, we're going on golf cart rides, and I'm planning date nights with the wife, trying to show interest in the things that she's interested in because she's my partner and I love her, and I want to raise a good human too, with my son Gray, that knows how to hunt, not from a hunting animal perspective, but knows how to take care of himself and not be dependent upon others.
Gary Sarner:
That's incredible. I'm going to say two things. The other night we were texting and you sent me a picture of your beautiful bride and said, "I need to go focus on what I'm doing." And I appreciated that so much, especially as a guy who's been divorced twice and now in what I would say is my perfect relationship. And I do also try to be intentional and give Elena at that time.
Chris Dreyer:
That's great.
Gary Sarner:
Follow up, based on what you just said, take a look at a brand out of Colorado called Be a Good Person. The message obviously means a lot, especially in today's world, and you'll find this interesting. I wore the shirt at a conference a couple of weeks ago in Chicago, and you know how everybody comments on my loud shirts? I got more compliments on the meaning on that shirt that I've ever gotten on the crazy loud shirts I wear.
Chris Dreyer:
Amazing, incredible.
Gary Sarner:
Good for our kids to learn too.
Chris Dreyer:
Absolutely.
Gary Sarner:
All right, this is similar to your question. You get to spend one day with someone in the legal profession. Who are you spending that entire day with and why?
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, that's tough. Man, that's tough. Okay, so I have friends in the legal profession, so please, if I don't say your name, it's not because I don't love you and want to hang out because I think it's different. The way that I'm going to answer this is someone that I don't have as much access with, that would love to get inside their brain. I'm going to say Steve Mehr. Steve does not get on a lot of podcasts. He's, I would say, more guarded on strategies and things, but I see what he's doing in the legal space, I know about his past exits, a lot of his dealings, and I think the brand that he is building is incredible with Sweet James, and I would love to pick Steve Mehr's brain.
Gary Sarner:
That's a good one. Obviously, I'm sure you've had conversations with him in the past.
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. We've had some nice sit downs. We had a nice dinner at the Phoenician at PIMCon last year and in conversations, but that's the group of people. Side conversations here and there, but yeah, that would be an amazing experience opportunity.
Gary Sarner:
I find him very, very amazing as well. Brilliant. And also, like you said, a little guarded because what he is building is quite special.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, nothing wrong with that. So I think it's one of those things you hear, like there's psychological components to being, if you're everywhere, it's not as scarce. That's another reason why I don't speak at every single event. It's like I want, when I do speak, to have meaning and it to be something that people are drawn to. So yeah, nothing wrong with it, but yeah, Steve would be awesome to pick his brain and spend a day.
Gary Sarner:
We are both so heavily involved in marketing with law firms and friendships with lawyers, and both of us use social media, watch TV. I listen to radio, you listen to Pandora, but what kind of content, whether it be a radio ad, a Pandora ad, TV ad, a social ad makes you stop and go, "Wow."
Chris Dreyer:
I'll tell you the content that I consume, and it's going to make me sound like a nut bag a little bit. I'm doing this on every social channel. I listen to the people killing it that have messages of winning, determination, execution, don't wait. I cannot consume enough of that, whether it's a Nick Saban, High Achievers statement or an Andy Frisella, talking about running through walls and how people telling him to slow down, he can't associate with them. I heard another one today, this is just one today of everybody wants to be a lion. Yeah, they want to be a lion when all there is, their verse, a pack of hyenas. But what if it's lion versus lion? Then who's coming out? Who is the king of the jungle? Those types of things.
Look, I'll be transparent, Cardone, look, a lot of the stuff he says is just wacky and he gets himself into trouble, but that his 10X book, I eat that stuff up. The motivational things of just, the biggest issue that I have with people, even in my home life, is like if someone says, "I can't," or "That won't work," I'm like, "Okay, I'll prove it." It's like a challenge. It is the ultimate mode of air. If people heard, I mean even songs, okay, Eminem, Higher, Rick Ross, Hustlin'. I go to the extent I played, in our last annual meeting, the first two minutes to the song, Eminem's Higher. This is what we're planning to set the tone. Our core values at Rankings are from me. They stem from me. The first core value is execution. Don't just say it, do it.
Gary Sarner:
I love that. Music matters, words matter. And you listening to Higher, me listening to Higher and your entire team listening to Higher will have a different meaning to each of us. But because it inspires you, it may inspire others. And at the end of the day, our roles in our companies is to make sure we could inspire our teams because we cannot motivate them. That comes from within, but the inspiration comes from the outside. Okay, I've got the fifth and I do have a sixth, which I'm going for.
Chris Dreyer:
All right, let's do it. We're rolling.
Gary Sarner:
You get to see one last concert. It could be any artist, alive or dead. Who would you see? And you get to see it anywhere in the world you choose. Where would you see the show?
Chris Dreyer:
Okay, I'm going to give you a little story here, and this is going to be painful for you to hear. When I was growing up, we never listened to the radio or music in the car. My dad's beat down truck, and we didn't listen to music. When we had a drive with my mom and dad, for some reason, we really didn't listen to music. We talked, we had conversations. So I don't have the breadth of knowledge in music, but back to your question, for me, Chris Dreyer, if it was mine, it's Young Jeezy. I'm going to Young Jeezy. I am just livid. So I have such, the reason why I loved Young Jeezy, the song Put On and that era of music is because when I was in college, during all those fun moments, that's what was being played a lot. That's what I just associate all these feelings of good times, so Young Jeezy, Put On, that's who I would listen to.
Gary Sarner:
So you get to go see Young Jeezy. Where in the world do you want to see the show?
Chris Dreyer:
I would pick St. Louis. I'd pick local. Why St. Louis? Because I could make a nice date night with the wife. A little staycation. The other thing that people don't know about me is I'm not really a traveler. I've been to Canada, Gary, outside the US. That's it. I don't know why. Certainly have a means to afford it, it's just there's a lot of things in the States that I haven't seen, and I go in a lot of treats. I feel like that person, too, that eats the same meals. I'll find a place that I like and I end up visiting lot. So yeah, I don't know, St. Louis.
Gary Sarner:
That's a great question to ask somebody as an icebreaker because you get to know what kind of music they like because not everybody's like you, and you get to find out where they want to travel to, what aspirations they may have. And it's not too personal because you and I are in the business of asking a lot of personal questions, and I always ask for permission. I say, "I'm going to ask you some difficult questions that you may not want to answer. Would you give me permission, please, to ask some?" And if you're uncomfortable, let me know. Because to help a law firm, and that is our desire in what we chose to do, you have to understand their business, and that means talking about financials.
Chris Dreyer:
That's fair.
Gary Sarner:
My last question, which really ties everything together, you already answered it, really. What is your why?
Chris Dreyer:
I love to compete. I love competition. I think second place is the first loser. I do think third place is worst. I was competitive in sports, everything, whether it was collectible card game player, world rank player, I love the game. I love competing. I think it's fun. It gives me purpose, and that's my why on the business side. On the family side, my why is I want to be a great husband and father. That is it. Yeah, I love the game for, on the business side, competing.
Gary Sarner:
I love it.
Chris Dreyer:
Purpose.
Gary Sarner:
I love it. Today's the fourth anniversary of my dad's passing. So I woke up this morning in deep, deep thought more about my why versus his why, which fortunately, he got to say to me, but via text, not in person. Because he spent the last 28 days of his life in the hospital during COVID, with no visitors. So that's always an important question, but today, it just had a little deeper meaning for me.
Chris Dreyer:
Do you want to share your why?
Gary Sarner:
In business, like you said, I love to compete like you do, but my why is the end user. How do we make sure the end user gets to the right place? I am far more intentional about the firms we work with today than I might've been four and a half years ago when I opened. At home, my why has always been my kids. And look, I was married to two amazing women and I have the most amazing partner today, but my children are 32 to 21 years old. So big difference from where Grey is today and what you get to watch, which I'm jealous that you get to do this, and I'm far from done, but I couldn't be more proud of who my kids have become as human beings.
Their accomplishments, they're amazing. Most people know that, and I don't know when this episode's going to air, but I have two that are waiting on their bar results right now, and my baby is waiting for an acceptance to Harvard for dental school, and my oldest, Sydney, has just rushed it as a recruiter with a huge company in America for 10 years. So first, they're all amazing people. Second, they've all accomplished the goals that they set for themselves, and I couldn't be more proud of them for doing that.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. Well done.
Gary Sarner:
I had good partners.
Chris Dreyer:
Well done.
Gary Sarner:
They weren't bad partners.
Chris Dreyer:
Amazing. Guys, I think that's the pod. Gary, thanks for coming back on the show. That's a wrap on today's five and five with radio expert, Gary Sarner. Big thanks to him for bringing years of marketing wisdom to the table. I'll see you on the next episode of Personal Injury Mastermind.
