Sarah Parisi:
You should know already. Here's what I'm willing to do. Here's where I'd be happy. Here's my hard stop.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. Let's get into it. She's back. Our billboard queen Sarah Parisi returns. She's answering questions you didn't even know to ask and spilling industry secrets that will make your competitors wonder how you got so smart. This is raw, unfiltered billboard wisdom from the VP of media who's seen it all. This conversation is part of our Traditional Media series. We give you a decade of wisdom distilled in an hour or less. If you missed our TV episode, the link's in the show notes. But today...
Chris Dreyer:
We're talking about buh-buh-billboards.
Sarah Parisi:
Buh-buh-buh-billboards. That was good.
Chris Dreyer:
So let's start with just the softball question. Do billboards actually work for personal injury attorneys in 2025?
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, wow. What a softball question. Yeah, they do. Again, I'm in the industry, so I'm cautiously aware, or consciously aware of all the billboards that I see and I take note of them as I'm driving through the city. I think that billboards ultimately have one of the top three positions in the mediums that you should be covering. I think the word is "yes." The answer is "yes." Thank you for that softball question.
Chris Dreyer:
I agree. And what's funny, every single time there's an election, it's like somebody's throwing up a little sign in your yard. Where are you at, PI attorneys? Let's throw them up in the yard. Let's get permission from these homeowners and let's just put them out in the yard just like the plumbers do. Let's do it.
Sarah Parisi:
Absolutely. Absolutely. It gives you an opportunity to announce your slogan to everyone. I mean, that just hammers that home, that recognition.
Chris Dreyer:
Guys, we're going to talk about creative. We're going to talk about placement. We're going to talk about negotiation tactics to get your cost-effective and all the things. Before we get into specifics, let's just talk about what you think the number one mistake is that most law firms make with billboard advertising.
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, gosh. Now, this is hard, because I've got two really tight contenders. Okay, but I'll do my first because I think that it's important from a monetary and return on investment stance. When you put too many words on that billboard, it doesn't matter where your placement is. By default, you've taken away a very key element of the billboard rules. The rules used to stay in line with that are "No, you need to keep it short, simple, memorable."
Chris Dreyer:
So you would put the stamp on seven words or less.
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, yes, yes. "Seven words or less." It was coined for a reason.
Chris Dreyer:
Yep.
Sarah Parisi:
Sp that statement right there says everything that you really need to know about what is the main creative aspect. If you take nothing else away, know that the shorter, the simpler and the more memorable. Those are the elements that you need to really hammer home.
Chris Dreyer:
Love it. Okay, so I agree. I have some other thoughts, but I agree. I think you hit the nail on the head. It makes me think of driving through my local city here and there's a paragraph. And I've driven by it a thousand times and I yet to, I still don't know what it's about.
Sarah Parisi:
No, that's crazy. No, because in your neighborhood, so that's my second one is not understanding or not giving enough credence to the placement. Geographical location is the second. If you're going to pay for something, you need to make sure that it's in the areas in which you want those impressions to be received.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's get down to the creative, the copy, all of the things. So first let's talk about, at least from my experience on creative, it's... Should it be branding? Should it be direct response? Is it a combination of both? Where do you go on just the copywriting and the strategy there?
Sarah Parisi:
That's what ultimately makes billboards difficult. And I think that there's a dance and you just have to be willing, a willing participant in that to find that right groove in it. Because you do want to call to action, but remember they're driving. So the call to action's really going to be from a branding stance. The last thing that, they were in a car, and if they are in an accident, that branding mechanism that they saw on the billboard is going to stick with them. And then hopefully that recall comes to mind. I don't give a lot of credence to having the 800-numbers on there unless you have a vanity number. Then I can see a reason, because your vanity number is really almost as good as your slogan. It's something that's memorable. But for me it would definitely be a little heavier on the branding side because it's just that key reminder. It's just that key pop-up. It's like "Don't forget I'm here." Another message. Another message the viewer takes in.
Chris Dreyer:
And that branding is supposed to have an emotional component to improve your likeability or part of the community. Makes me think, I spoke with Sam Aguiar yesterday as a Louisville attorney where he puts out these positive messages like "Have a good day," which is awesome. And he said he got thousands of messages just from these positive type of affirmation type statements.
Sarah Parisi:
I bet. He did something different. I love it. I've heard about it. I think it's brilliant. I think you are reaching into somebody. Not just letting them know you're an attorney, but that you send good vibes and in an age where people are just reaching out via social media and sending those kinds of messages, and I actually follow a few TikTok accounts that just give positive energy this morning, yada yada. So I think it's a brilliant move. It definitely paints him and his services in a more positive light because of the messaging that he is choosing to use. So no, kudos to him. I think it's a brilliant campaign.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm going to sound like a psychopath here a little bit, but I am like, I love listening to the audiobooks that are just in your face, pump you up, execution, excellence...
Sarah Parisi:
You and I have talked about that. The Great Cardone.
Chris Dreyer:
Cardone, Carver, Tim Carver... I'm talking just anyone that's like, "Go out and get it." So you know what I would love on the way into work, PI attorneys? I would like the kick-your-butt pump-up billboards. And I'm like, "Yeah." When I'm running out of the tunnel for a football game and you're flapping that sign. That's what I want to drive into work every day.
Sarah Parisi:
I love it.
Chris Dreyer:
And I would be like-
Sarah Parisi:
Somebody needs to do that.
Chris Dreyer:
Someone does.
Sarah Parisi:
That's a good one.
Chris Dreyer:
There you go.
Sarah Parisi:
That's really good.
Chris Dreyer:
I just made somebody a lot of money.
Sarah Parisi:
You did. You did, very Alex Hormozi of you just throwing that out there.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. You're welcome, guys. So I wanted to hit on the number thing. Okay, for me... Okay. The repeaters. I think it's, so we got the, "Call the fours, 4-4-4," in St. Louis. And we got "Called the fours," in San Antonio, and I understand the repeater and I guess the old school bloom rumors or maybe the millennials that had the phone that actually did the letters. Do you think about a 1-800-Frank, or whatever your name is? Do people even care about that?
Sarah Parisi:
I think it's dwindling. I think it's dwindling. I can't even recall. I am so used to just going into my contact list. Even places that I go to all the time. If I'm picking up prescriptions, I don't know the number of my pharmacy. I know that my mother and father did though, when we were sick or they needed to call the doctor's office. I don't know my children's doctor's office phone number, I still have to Google that first. So I think vanity numbers are important, but I don't think they're necessarily the key piece. Because when you're reaching these this new generation coming up, so everybody is involved with social media, everybody Googles things before they take the plunge. And I was actually just having a conversation yesterday with a client and saying, "They may see your ad on TV, but they're going to Google it. And so we should be paying attention to your volume, your traffic volume after that ad aired."
So I think ultimately there's a shift in, again, this whole viewership and consumption of media change and the way the pathway to reach out. Like our path to actually, I'm not going to say "path to purchase," but it's really that call to action, path to action. It's no longer just ultimately picking up the phone, that that ad made that decision for you. It is, they're going to research you, they're going to look into it. And then they might just dial you straight from your GMB. That's ultimately what I do personally. I'm not saying that I'm everyone, but I know a significant portion of people are doing it to the point that we need to pay attention to it.
Chris Dreyer:
It's what I do.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah, proof.
Chris Dreyer:
I think the game has changed. I think the consumer behavior's changed. I agree with you a hundred percent. I guess next question here, how often do you rotate? We talked about how often you change production. There's this exhausting component, and I think you can even test for that. How often do you rotate the creative from a billboard perspective?
Sarah Parisi:
So that's usually baked in or part of the actual negotiation process when you get the contracts from the billboard companies back. You can choose to change out your wraps, but it is a production cost, so keep that in mind. And it's depending upon who you're going with to purchase those billboards. So you may have in mind about three or four different creative wraps depending upon just your messaging, your 800 number, et cetera. I would leave one wrap up a calendar year, or a broadcast, just one full 12 months. There is argument, if there is enough traffic going by for you to change that out every six months. Billboard contracts are a little bit different compared to other mediums because they're going to base it out on a six-week or six-month contract. And so you have that opportunity to really do some creative negotiations at that point, getting them to throw in two additional wraps for paying this price on the billboard. There's some negotiation tactics that you can utilize to get more frequent changes on the creative, but exhaustion wise, you have to know from the Department of Transportation.
So don't just take it from the billboard company's impression levels. You need to make sure that they're accessing actual data from your own markets, Department of Transportation, so you can get that drive-by count. And that's how you're really going to know. If I'm looking, I'm in Nashville, so if I'm going downtown Nashville and I'm stamped right on the intersection where you can branch towards 40 and 65. That gets a humongous amount of traffic every day. And so those, I would say probably six months. If you wanted to do faster, but you don't need to rotate every month or anything like that. You want them to... Yeah.
Chris Dreyer:
You set me up here. Okay, here we go. I'm putting my hat on. I'm a billboard salesman. You ready?
Sarah Parisi:
Um-hmm.
Chris Dreyer:
But Sarah, we've got these digital boards. There's only 18 people on the board, but you can rotate your message any time you want.
Sarah Parisi:
No. Do you see the life just bleed out of my eyes? No, I don't want your digital board. And I get really... Okay. First of all, on the chance that you are somebody who is in rush hour traffic, sure. And you're just sitting there. I don't think you're staring at the billboards. Whether you like it or not, some people are either frustrated looking at the cars in front of them, on their phone, playing with radio stations.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm on my phone. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but if I'm stopped, I'm on my phone.
Sarah Parisi:
I don't think... You're not the only one. Everybody is. They're not watching this rotation of billboards. And digital boards, I do not like because you are getting a fraction of the impressions of what they're actually reporting back to you. I can count so many times I've driven by, there's actually two on my route in and out of downtown. And every time I'm like, "I'm going to catch the number this time." And I don't even think it's an attorney. I think it's for a window shades or blind company. I have yet to see the 800 number listed on there. Because it just flashes right before me and I miss it every time. So that's what you're up against. I don't like digital boards. They think that they're fancier and that people are just like, "Ooo, wow."
Chris Dreyer:
Well, instead of one static board, they get eight people paying the same rates and they try to use the value prop, but it's bullshit. It's complete bullshit.
Sarah Parisi:
Yes, absolutely. It's not fancier. It's not cooler. It doesn't do anything except take away impressions from you.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's talk about the earned media component. I think this is really interesting. Billboards have the ability to draw the news in. So I've seen this personally, I'll use Top Dog as an example. He's a big Philly fan, so he bought a board next to the Philadelphia Stadium that said, "Hey, we had a board here, but Houston stole it during the whole Houston thing." So he was picked up in the news. You've got Jacob and Ronnie that kind of originated the flip the billboards upside down. So a bunch of people were contacting his office and like, "Hey, did you know they put your billboard upside down?"
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, my God.
Chris Dreyer:
And then you have these "Design Your Own Billboard" contests. I think Frank Azar has done a really good job there of being purple cow-ish. He lets the community create, and that's an additional strategy of itself there through social media. What's your thoughts about the earned media component from a billboard strategy?
Sarah Parisi:
I think that it gets people talking about you. It's like they say, there's no such thing as bad press. I think that you're staying in that spotlight. One that particularly comes to mind that I know of is Gordon McKernan. And somebody created a Facebook group specifically dedicated to Gordon McKernan's billboards and the sheer quantity of them in the state of Louisiana. And I loved it. I think it's great. Just knowing that somebody, the community is so involved and they know who he is. He has made his mark and his presence and now it's kind of like, I don't want to say parody, but it kind of is a little bit like a parody, like an SNL skit when you read down through the comment sections on there. And so you are relating to them. You are relating to your actual audience and they see you as more than just an attorney. You're part of the community and that's just within your own area. And then when you take it to somebody else who's getting that kind of national attention. Again, there's no such thing as bad press. So I think it's great.
Chris Dreyer:
We got to mention Alexander Shunnarah too, right?
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, I know. Okay. He was on the tip of my tongue and I'm like, dude, I love it. Because I see his boards everywhere. Again, being in national. And he created this ultimate dream.
Chris Dreyer:
Munger & Associates is another one. You can't get away from their billboards. Their billboards are very consistent, I would say. There's not a lot of deviation on the creative side, but I don't really know Scott. But I remember I had, for whatever reason, me and my wife decided to drive to Miami. We're going to stay there for all of February, which... Horrible, horrible decision. Just fly. Just fly.
Sarah Parisi:
Just fly. Oh, well you drove? Okay.
Chris Dreyer:
Horrible decision. But I... Munger and Associates was in my brain because all the way from southern Illinois all the way to Miami, I saw him pretty consistently. Scott, by the way, if you're listening, come on the pod. Thank you.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah, do it.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, so I'd love to talk to him about that. That'd be awesome. The other thing too, even to the point Shunnarah, there will be, I remember when Meta had that the Metaverse people are making fun of it and putting Shunnarah billboards on the metaverse. And then when people talk about colonizing Mars, I think there's Mars with Shunnarah billboards.
Sarah Parisi:
I saw that. I did see that as a meme. That's funny.
Chris Dreyer:
I think another person that does a really excellent job, I think we've got to mention just from a creative perspective is Sweet James.
Sarah Parisi:
Okay. Yeah.
Chris Dreyer:
I think the Sweet James, the color really stands out and is crystal clear to read. I remember under law here in St. Louis, they had this yellow and it was washed out hard to read. And then they changed it to this dark blue red, kind of like Mike Morse's colors. And it was, for me driving to St. Louis, it was significantly better from a readability, standing out. So what do you think about the colors, that kind of stuff.
Sarah Parisi:
This is not something that you should be throwing together with a team in-house just because it looks pretty on your desktop computer. I play around in Canva. I love a good Adobe Photoshop, et cetera. No, no, no. This is why you need a creative expert and you need somebody skilled in the level of production for billboards. Because you are right. It's the coloring, the matching of the colors, the palette, and also the readability to pop out. And there's elements to billboards where you can get things. You can go above the actual cut and you can get something to pop out if you will, and use more of the space given to you. But ultimately you want to make sure that this design is also approved by a person who understands creative specs, color theory, and knowing that they're using the seven words or less, obviously they're skilled in this craft.
And it can make or break the campaign because you're right, if you were not able to read it or if it does, maybe you can read it, maybe it just looks bad. An example, my mother asked me once what my favorite colors were when I was younger. She wanted to make me a quilt and I said that my favorite colors were red, purple and yellow. Why? I don't know. She was just like, "Really? I don't know if this is going to look good." And I was like, "Fine. Then do red, pink and orange." And she was like, "Okay, that's even worse." So again-
Chris Dreyer:
She's subliminally trying to make you a Minnesota Vikings fan with the purple.
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, my God. Right? Subliminally yet, absolutely. But she was just like, "Oh, gosh. Sarah, not... I was hoping you were going to say something like pink and blue and purple." Something that is more along, in that color wheel science line. Just because... And when she made it, I want you to know that blanket is not good. It does not look well. It's not the colors I should have chosen. So again, it may look great in your head. You may see it in your head and somebody say... Actually, what if it needs a drop shadow? Something that I wouldn't even have thought of. Or a bigger bolded outline on the lettering blues, like you said, the Sweet James. There is something quite magnetic about that blue that he used. You almost want to kind of look into the pantone color of it.
Chris Dreyer:
It immediately made my mom, made me think of my mom saying, "Bless her heart."
Sarah Parisi:
Yes, we were still blessing my heart. My mom was like, "Oh. I mean, I guess I'll do it, but this is not going good."
Chris Dreyer:
That's funny. That's funny. Okay, so we hit the creative. Let's talk about placement now, I guess. Before we get into... So the one thing that I always hear is, "right-hand reads." So talk to me about placement.
Sarah Parisi:
I love that you've already heard about right-hand reads, because that makes my heart very, very happy. It's something that it isn't inherently, if you're just going into billboards, not many people would instinctively think of that. So right-hand read means it's on, if you are driving down, it's on your side where you're driving to, you can see it from your right-hand read. Left-hand reads are...
Chris Dreyer:
Across the highway. Across on the other side of the interstate.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah. And now sometimes you can potentially provide me with a left-hand read that I find within good placement. So if I'm going down through it, I'm ticking off my checklist items. And then number one thing to me again is the creative. Making sure that the messaging is clear and readable. The second is the geography placement of it. Making sure that the board is within a location that fits my demographic. Your media buying team should, there are ways we can better target the placements. Some of those ways are, you can give out a list of your clientele's addresses. We don't need names or sensitive particulars, but we can put a heat map up and put a pin map together. So we can see where all of your clients, if there's a condensed area right in here... So oh, you're getting a lot of action from this area in town. Narrowing down really your demographic area to really target and get eyeballs within the most areas where you've got that return on investment already and people are seeing your ads and responding to them.
So utilize... Your media team's going to be looking into this, they're going to be covering up that layer. So once we have the pin map, we can also add a couple other things down to it, from a demographic census data information down to education levels. You can do income levels. You can do the average home costs. There are lots of different things that you should be asking of your media team to utilize their buying software for. Another element that you can do is throw in other retail establishments to see, okay, what are the shops in this area right here? What are the locations? If you've got a really good software, then you can even drop yourself like you would in Google Maps. And you're able to scan the area and see, okay, what billboard... Maybe this company hadn't told you but right behind you is another billboard. And wouldn't it be nice to know if it was a competitor who had that billboard less than 50 yards away?
So these are elements in which again, it's really crucial to have a good media buying team who's working on this. Billboards are easy to take in-house because so many people assume it's just, "Oh, it's easy. We can just cut this deal quickly. It's simple. It's a board. They're going to throw it up, they're going to give me the geolocation dots and I'm going to know where it is." There's so much down in there that you're not paying attention to. And it's also easier to fall into the remnant board trap. Your media team is going to be the one to really get into the weeds and they're going to use that software to overlay a lot of different demographic elements.
Chris Dreyer:
Population density...
Sarah Parisi:
Yes, you want the placement. It's not viable to say like, "Okay, there's no traffic in this area." Or down into the lighting. What if there is traffic in the area but there aren't as many interstate lights? And so you want to make sure that your board, in the fine print, it has lighting available. There are pieces to the actual securing that definitely need to be addressed before purchase.
Chris Dreyer:
So I have two things. And first I just want to go down the lighting component. So you hit me with a curveball. When I recently, I was in San Antonio. I went to visit a trucking attorney, Michael Cowan. I was driving. I had a super early flight back and it was dark outside. And what I found that was interesting was all, not all, but many of the billboards on the interstate were wrapped in a neon and they were lit up to where I could read them at night and I thought, "Wow, that's different."
Sarah Parisi:
Oh.
Chris Dreyer:
I don't see that in St. Louis. Maybe the city doesn't allow it in certain cities, but it definitely makes them stand out.
Sarah Parisi:
I would venture to say that this is newer, so I haven't even been given that opportunity. So it's probably got some type of overlay into it that makes the lettering pop for evening hours. So where a firm's coloring might be navy blue or have a lot of blacks in it... Small little spotlights can only do so much. So that is very interesting because I haven't seen them around yet.
Chris Dreyer:
It was straight up neon, like Las Vegas style. They really stood out and popped against the dark background. So it was really smart.
Sarah Parisi:
That's smart. I'm curious now, so I'll have something to go back with some homework. I would definitely have that added in. Especially if you want to, most people, most of them are going to say, of course all the billboards are, they are lit up. The maintenance. How often is that board serviced?
Chris Dreyer:
Very true.
Sarah Parisi:
And you want to make sure that they had a recent check on it. You want to make sure that somebody was actively out there. Because they're going to send you pictures and for all you know, maybe a tree, not a tree, but like shrubbery. Something could be blocking it. And actually on my way to my parents' house, I notice it every time. There is a huge board and it's delightful and I don't even remember the name of the attorney on it anymore because there's a huge shrubbery that's blocking it. So 65 North.
Chris Dreyer:
That would fire me up.
Sarah Parisi:
Exactly, exactly. Because they're not serviced. So you have to add that in there. But the neon? Sign me up.
Chris Dreyer:
This is my squirrel brain going in a different direction. What I was thinking...
Sarah Parisi:
That's okay.
Chris Dreyer:
Please push back on me here. But do you know what I just think is the dumbest advertising that I see for PI attorneys? Is I feel it is the bus stop posters.
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, no.
Chris Dreyer:
You like them. So to me it's like, "Okay, so let's advertise to these people that don't own cars. They're going to get in a ton of auto accidents."
Sarah Parisi:
What? You mean in the actual, where they're waiting for the bus?
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, let's advertise to the people without vehicles for auto accidents. Smart.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah. But you have to understand maybe they don't have a car for a reason.
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, they're bad drivers.
Sarah Parisi:
No. Oh, no. Well, that's one... But I'm thinking that maybe they were in an auto accident and they haven't been able to replace their form of transportation.
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, okay. Okay. I reverse. I reverse.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah.
Chris Dreyer:
Okay, I'm wrong.
Sarah Parisi:
So they're having to take the bus. They're having to get on to and use that metropolitan source of transportation because that's how they're getting to work. And again, it speaks to how injured that they were and how long that they have been out of work and they're going to see that. I think it's brilliant placement, because you're obviously getting somewhere.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm wrong. I am wrong. Okay, so I didn't think that-
Sarah Parisi:
Bad drivers, I think could be...
Chris Dreyer:
Okay. One other one for out-of-home since I went this direction before we talk about negotiation tactics. So airport, where you're waiting for your bag claim, you've got some advertisements there when you're walking to... Yes? No? Expensive? Thoughts?
Sarah Parisi:
Oh it's not necessarily expensive. You'd really just, again, you'd have to look at the foot traffic and how much is going by there. I just would question whether or not this is your demographic.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Parisi:
I think branding there, but you are not obviously... So again, it goes back to messaging. Is this a call to action or is this a branding effort? There's some opportunity you could definitely use in there for lost luggage, or so you can use some kind of quippy little thing. Obviously, I hold my breath when my bags are coming out. I don't know why. I'm scared every time that they're not going to make it. So that'd be definitely an opportunity to have some throw in, some witty kind of tagline or memorable. And they even have now where they talk to you, so they'll have these pillars that come up. And they have them in malls, they're moving them now into airports. And so it's really unique and you can have them, they'll look... It's not like AI. It's rehearsed and it's recorded obviously, but it could be active. You could be standing. And they're pretty tall so it's a real life version of you. Not like a hologram but like an actual video on there. So I think yes, if you do it as branding.
Chris Dreyer:
Immediately when I was thinking of the airport and this is totally just rando, I was thinking of when you go down the escalator, you're getting ready to go to your bag claim. You want to see that guy in the suit and the hat that's holding the sign that says your name.
Sarah Parisi:
Oh, every time.
Chris Dreyer:
Like, let's just grill a mark. Hey guys, PI attorneys, let's just get crazy here. Let's hire somebody. We're not talking about the guy that stands on the side of the road spinning the sign. Let's stand at the bottom of the escalator and put a little ad for the firm and just have him stand there all day. You've got attention just like the Superbowl, but in the airport.
Sarah Parisi:
You do. I could see a placement for it even more so in the rental areas. Where you're going to get your rental cars, things like that. Because you're in a new area and if you need somebody local to that state or city which you're in and if you get in trouble. So there's room there, but I think the grill and marketing would be pretty great. They could have somebody like a fast, easy sign up. I tell you what, it's not easy getting your rental car unless you have the app where you can get it ahead of time. Takes a long time.
Chris Dreyer:
Okay, we went away from the billboards. Let's go back.
Sarah Parisi:
We did. Okay.
Chris Dreyer:
We're back to billboards. We're putting our billboard hats back on.
Sarah Parisi:
I love it.
Chris Dreyer:
Okay, so you mentioned it. There's always the, it depends, but we talked about this on TV, but remnant boards. "Hey, you're going to get these really cheap boards and you can get 50 of them."
Sarah Parisi:
Okay, twofold. I do not like remnant boards, but I'm also a control freak. I want to be in control of the placement. I want to be in control of knowing how long my contract is on that. And if it's a particularly good board, I don't want to have to give it up just because somebody comes along and is willing to pay for it, so they're going to move me out of it. So that you're giving up a lot of freedom with remnant, and I start with that because most people, most they're going to start off with six or 4, 6, 10 boards, grow from there.
So I don't like remnant boards if this is your first dip into the market. No, these need to be extremely scrutinized. They need to be placed strategically and I hold onto that. And it's very difficult for me to let that go. Again, you give up control on whether or not you can keep that board, for how long you can keep that board. You give up where it's even placed. You give it all up. Now if you are someone like Shunnarah or McKernan who has them everywhere, then I can see why remnant would make sense for you. Because you do, your billboard presence is already just insurmountable to what everybody else is doing.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah.
Sarah Parisi:
So I think that it makes sense from an ROI stance. You could work out a great remnant deal, and then throw in there that you'd like to have at least three boards that... You report back to them that we really, really like the placements of these. Maybe work out a supplemental contract on that that you don't want to necessarily want to those but you're still willing to push forward with these remnant placements. So again, it's a negotiation tactic.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, the big thing here, it makes me think of Naval Ravikant's four components of leverage. So you've got code, content, collaboration and capital. So you take an individual, leaning on the capital component. Where Shunnarah is already a big customer of Lamar, so he's already getting negotiation economies, so his remnant buy is not what a new firm owner's buy would be. So he's going to get it at a fraction of the cost of even the remnant advertised price. Which, that's the advantage. Like, go big. Right?
Sarah Parisi:
Oh yeah, dude. When you're buying that many? Absolutely, use that to your advantage. Because ultimately I would do it, anybody would do it. And the rep, you have the power there. That's the negotiation power. It's in your hands.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's talk about another negotiation tactic. I think this one might put some sirens up on the PI attorneys' heads. So line of sight provisions? How difficult are those to get line of sight provisions added to your billboard strategy?
Sarah Parisi:
By default, they're angled. By default, they're put in a position when you're driving that is...
Chris Dreyer:
So what we're talking, let's explain what line of sight provisions are. And correct me if I'm wrong here. So I have a billboard at X location, and in the line of sight of that billboard cannot be a competitor.
Sarah Parisi:
Oh sorry, I thought you meant in the direction of said interstate or driver's profile for easily viewing. You can, yes, you can set up that you within a certain radius... Again, just like with TV you're going to be coming up with a premium. So you're going to have to pay extra to remove any competition from you. But then are you restricting it just to this side or is it strictly just on the right-hand side? Because you do have to be specific. Because they're not going to count Mr. Man across the street from you because it's not technically of the same classification within this right-hand read locate. You went on this side. If you want both... And I think ultimately what I would recommend to everyone is simply to ensure that there's not a competitor on the backside of your own board. So there comes two sides to it.
Or even in something blocking it, maybe it's a shorter board and yours is up higher. You want to make sure that there's nothing inherently blocking yours, whether it's a competitor or not, I would think is a strong... And again, this goes down to the software and your buying team. They're going to be able to have the power to make sure that that's possible. And depending upon when the images were taken, they can have the billboard reps produce them, go out there and scout it. I want recent as of within the last month, photos.
Because if a new board has gone up, it's already within the software plot. There's already a location tag for it. But if you just want that verification, if your photos are six months old, I would request that scouting be done. And then from there everything folded into the contract just like you would for television. You want to make sure that there's a certain separation element. I don't want a competitor of the same break as me or actually within 15 minutes of my ad airing. I don't want a competitor within one mile. That might be too much. You might not get that. Or at least within this certain block and you can label that within the actual software you can actually take. It's got a handy dandy drawing pen that you can write on there for verification and then they can write that up within the contract.
Chris Dreyer:
Amazing, amazing. So those are things to consider, the premiums, just like you would on the TV side. Again, I think I asked this question on when we had our TV episode. But I got to ask it again because just the competitive side of me, right? There's clearly better billboard locations than others. Can I go to the owner and say, "I want this board. What's the price?" Are they locked out? Can they give the person that owns it first or refusal. To me, this is just who I am. I will go in and bully out everyone even if I have to pay triple to secure it. We kind of see this war going on with Newland and Morgan in Orlando. They're kind of doing the same thing. $2 million a month each on TV. But look, I understand. I want to go in, I want the best boards. I'm willing in the short term to pay extreme prices where I'm not going to get my CPAs. But I'm willing to do that. Is that possible?
Sarah Parisi:
So if it is under contract, it's really not possible unless you have a rep who is... You have to pay attention to your end dates when your contract ends. You can't get out of that. They can't just kick somebody out just because you're willing to pay three times. Now what they might do is let you know when that billboard is up for the free market, and they may or may not mention to said client that their contract is expired. Because it's a better commission deal for them for you to come along. They could say something to said client and ask, offer out a free movement, and not tell them necessarily why. You never want to say something's impossible because for the right amount of money, I believe anything is possible. Contractually, ethically speaking, they're not supposed to.
Chris Dreyer:
The downside is... Here's the big issue. You see this with Adler, you see this with some of these legacies. They have the person on speed-dial. So when you go in and try to bully them out and they've been in the market for 20 years, they're going to stick with the guy that's been with them for 20 years.
Sarah Parisi:
Exactly. So that is a key piece and something that I try and tell people. I, for a long time, was foreseeing... Utilizing my interactions with station reps is very transactional and I do not agree with that methodology. And I'm a person at the end of the day and I'm having conversations with another human being. And yes, there's an exchange of funding that equates to exchange of power. But I don't abuse that because I need those people with boots on ground to be there for me, to fight for our client in certain situations in which maybe so-and-so is getting more bonus spots than we are.
Somebody else got wind of your boards. They're trying to take this board out from underneath you. These are supposed to be your allies, not your enemies. And certainly not treat it as if they are your lower-level employees, that tier. Just "Do what I say." I don't speak to them in any type of dominant fashion because I want them to form a relationship with me. I value their time. They value our business. And so that is exactly why when you have these guys who have this huge, huge awareness and presence within their markets and they've been there for years, those reps will stand by them until the end. Because they're dedicated. They've had this client who has contributed to their income for years. And they look at them as not only just a client or a customer at that point. You start to form personal relationships, and you are going to fight for them and pass along information when needed.
Chris Dreyer:
There's a lot of value in that. In the consistency, the loyalty. There's a lot of strength in that. And I think a lot of times PI attorneys, they have this window, this orientation window of, they're looking in the short term. Versus the people that are going to play the long term and the compounding. I did want to, what kind of CPMs are we looking at for billboards? Talk about negotiation strategies with the big one. I think it is Lamar. Are they the biggest?
Sarah Parisi:
It honestly depends which market. Because you've got Lamar and Outdoor that are pretty heavy and then with a lot of these other options. So if you go outside of billboards, remember out of home doesn't just include billboards, but you ever go to the gas station? And they have that TV playing at the gas... I love those. I think that there's a missed opportunity there. Because if you're somebody like me, I don't just put the thing, excuse me, I do fill out my car with gas, but the gas pump into there and I don't get back in the car because I'm afraid it's going to overflow. And I know this is just in my brain, but they say not to get back in your car. Either way, there's that screen that's fully, you can put an ad on those. In the malls like you said, in the airports, there are even now where you can have it just on the middle of a street. I believe in Houston is where I was where I saw this a triangular shape type of, it was almost like a city map, like a map in a mall, but it was on the corner outside and it had an attorney ad on it. I was like, that's super cool.
CPM wise still should be treated the same as TV. There's no reason. You're not paying. I mean, they're going to offer it to you at $11 just like a TV station would. And you take that down. But do remember when it's no longer your demographic impression information, you need to make sure that you looking and getting figures based upon drive-by numbers, the actual traffic volume. So there's some little pieces I would look for.
Chris Dreyer:
So I think a lot of our audience is big time into real estate. And so I do a lot of this, I'm not going to lie. I looked at billboard investing because I have a big network. I've got the pod and I still think there's a big opportunity here. You're paying $5,000 a month, 60,000 a year, you do the 1% rule, you pick up a billboard for 600 grand, the equivalent to a house. Now, at least the ones that I was looking for for sale are exceeding that. But I think there's also, there's less maintenance. You're not dealing with tenant screening and... You are, to some capacity. And then me being in the Midwest, it's like how many of these farmers that are putting cell towers in their fields getting the $2,000 a month? Let's put a billboard there. Let's give them the $2,000 a month for, they're right on the interstate.
Sarah Parisi:
It's not a bad idea. That's actually great. And you're not the first person. I remember... I will say this, though. Go ahead and do that. Yeah, because I tell you what, we need some independents out there that actually care and also just try to be Lamar or Outdoor. Just give it, set that as the standard. But you can't just put up a yard sale sign and call that a billboard. And I will tell you right now, and I'm not even lying... It was basically a poster board held up by two, you know those paint can sticks? That is not a billboard. That is not a billboard. I don't care how long they've been your family friend. And this happened to me when I was buying from Mobile, Alabama. And they were not a very big company. I don't care. I don't care if you're a big company. Send me your specs, send me the images of the board. And I'm going, "That's not a billboard."
Chris Dreyer:
So I went off a tangent again. So reining it back in... What kind of CPMs are we looking like? What kind of base? Obviously every market's different, but what type of early strategy? I don't have a ton of money to invest. I want to do some supplemental boards and then more late game. Let's talk through the CPMs, and let's talk about just the budgeting and just how you should think about this as a PR attorney.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah, absolutely. So billboard prices are inherently... They're not as large as what people may think. In any given market, I mean you're coming up, it could be $800 and you have to remember we're working off a six-week or four-week schedule or how they're billing. Again, they bill a little bit differently than broadcast and it's all negotiated. So you can change that, so whatever. But I'm going to do it by a month just to keep things uniform across the board. So one board, that is, and maybe on a smaller spec, so you have bulletins and then you have posters. And so your prices are going to range anywhere from $800 to $4,000 if you get something astronomical. And probably even beyond that, especially if you're dealing with something near a sports stadium in Kansas City. They're going to shoot up at that point.
Now you're still able to get within that $5 to $6 cost per thousand, probably lower. And just make sure that the way that you are calculating that is based upon drive-by numbers, the actual traffic through there. Don't let them just attach the number of adults within that designated market area.
Chris Dreyer:
That's a little curveball. So they'll try to distract you. "This is the population density of this area." No, how many vehicles pass by this board?
Sarah Parisi:
Yes, yes. And that's what I meant earlier when I said the Department of Transportation. So those figures are going to be from there, and you'll see it. The source is going to be put onto that sheet. But again, if you have a good buying team that understands and has the resources, they know what to look for and they have the right tools. They will be able to immediately, you can tell, you can just tell. It could just be because, oh, it's like this is impression data source from how many households are within the market. That's not what we're looking for. We're looking for drive-by and you need to have a, could be, I'm just going to use Tennessee, just that's where I am. But it's like Tennessee Department of Transportation figures, blah, blah, blah a year, something like that.
Chris Dreyer:
That makes sense.
Sarah Parisi:
You could go into any given... I can't say it because again, it's based on density within the population, within the actual DMA. So how many homes and people are in there. So I would say just to get your toe into the water and average, if I'm just taking every, I think United States, 10,000 a month.
Chris Dreyer:
10,000 a month.
Sarah Parisi:
It's enough to get at least four to seven boards including production. So again, and that's going to be your one-time, not production as in shooting, but I'm talking, they have to print that sucker out. They have to print it, and then they got to get the guy out there hanging it up. So installation and production costs for that are baked in. And that's just a one-time, anytime you do change the wrap, it's another creative change cost. So I would say... But you could go lower than that. I mean you could have a billboard budget for $4,500 and maybe get four boards. So again, it depends on your DMA.
Chris Dreyer:
Do they do, for example, property management, right? You get X amount of properties, they drop their percentage fee. Can they say, "Hey, for these 10 boards of this impression share it's X. But if you go to 15, it's this and we'll apply this across all." Is there the bulk pricing component and strategy?
Sarah Parisi:
Again? Yes. Just like with TV, you'll get that added value in there. You can still have a great negotiation with a minimum billboard buy. Here's what I would tell you to really, the pieces that I would really try and negotiate down are going to be those production costs. I'll pay the one-time hanging fee, but I don't want to have to pay it again until this contract expires and we go through it again. And just add in a caveat that we are allowed to change it upon emergency or just for a one-time within the contract at no cost.
That should be just something that they'd be willing to work with you on. Instead of... Because really that's where it's going to come down to how many often you want to change your messaging. And let's just say, if you want to change two scenarios, you got a few in the pipeline that you're excited to display. And maybe it's inventory over the next year. So you already know you want to change your boards four times this year. Then I would tell you maybe come up a little bit more on those individual costs and get that production and new creative hanging or installation charges wiped for the year of contract. Because I think that's going to save you in the end.
So you push and push until you get something for free, and you will. Now, if you don't have any creative changes, then that's when you come down and say, "Okay. Well, I tell you what. Maybe what if I add in another board and I'll pay this amount, but I want all these to come back down to this number." So again, it's a game of... It's so fun. It's like a puzzle. It's a game of negotiations and you just really have to make sure. Prep before, don't do it on the call. And any media buying agency is going to do that for you. You should know already, "Here's what I'm willing to do. Here's where I'd be happy. Here's my hard stop."
Chris Dreyer:
Right. Here's the home run negotiation, too.
Sarah Parisi:
Right.
Chris Dreyer:
This is fantastic. So let me, from the novice perspective, me what I'm hearing. Okay, so first we talked about creative. We talked about seven words or less. We talked about sharp colors. We talked about the earned media component. We talked about placement, right-hand reads, avoiding digital. Everything has an "it depends," but overall, avoid digital. We want to avoid remnant because there's a reason why these are remnant. Because nobody drives by them. And then we want to negotiate.
Sarah Parisi:
Yeah, and I will say to remnant, it's not necessarily nobody drives by them. But it's like I don't want to hate on it. Again, if you are looking at that kind of volume, then it makes sense. But you still use that power that you have, because you are securing so much inventory, to get a little bit of secured placements locked down. And there are so many opportunity there for A-B testing and attribution testing. If you're really not tied to any vanity numbers, I would really almost challenge everyone to just say, "Which ones do you know that are really working, and how do you know that?"
There's so much opportunity. Whether they just be like a URL and you want to track how many people visited something catchy or fun. If you have another, easy to remember 800. I don't like 800 numbers on the billboards, but you'll even notice things that pick up with your audience as a catchphrase, as another, "I was like, oh, did you see this board? Yada, yada." So there's ways to test it out, but I would say with remnant, just add in a few areas of where you really want to make sure your message is seen. You can do that. Add in those securing elements.
Chris Dreyer:
Super smart. Guys, this was a lot of fun. Sarah, this was a lot of fun. We're going to come back. Sarah's going to be on a future episode. We're going to talk about radio. We're really going to get in the weeds on radio. Thank you for listening.
Sarah Parisi:
Thanks so much, Chris. I appreciate it.
Chris Dreyer:
You just heard firsthand how much goes into buying the right billboards in the right places for the right rates with the right creative. Let's be real. You're busy running a law firm and fighting for your clients. You focus on winning cases. We focus on getting them. Hit us up at Rankings.io.
