Chris Dreyer:
When a high-value case walks through your door, you know this could be the catalyst that transforms your practice, the case that puts your firm on the map. But there's a problem. Without a substantial war chest, you're faced with two difficult choices. Refer the case out and get a fraction of the case value, or risk your entire practice on a case you can't afford to lose. But what if there's a third option? What if there was a low cost alternative that provides hard data and strong insights on how to make the right decision for your firm, case-by-case?
Today's guest, Elizabeth Larrick, discovered exactly that. Her approach allows small to mid-sized PI firms to confidently handle cases they would have previously referred out without needing the traditional war chest. Let's dive in.
Elizabeth Larrick:
I had been already running focus groups and was just loving it. There was a group of us here in town and we'd get together. It was a ton of fun. I was using it for my cases, and then just helping people with theirs. It really slowly started to evolve. I saw that I had a bigger pull towards doing this work versus that litigation set of files. I said, "You know what, I'm going to plant my flag and I'm going to go for it." I would come in on Saturdays. I had an office space that I designed specifically for focus groups, so it felt like everything was falling together.
Chris Dreyer:
You spent years in the trenches as a plaintiffs personal injury lawyer. I guess what first drew you to the trial work? Because there's a lot of lawyers that don't try cases.
Elizabeth Larrick:
I've always done plaintiffs personal injury side. I loved it and I got a taste of it very early on. My first job, it was, "Okay, we go to trial. This is what we're doing." Really, made sure I was getting in the courtroom. I had a very good mentor. Also, found my way over to a trial strategy school, at the time it was called Reptile, now it's called The Edge. Just really loved the teaching aspect of it and teaching other lawyers. Again, very lucky that I fell in with this group. Then I got to get up on stage and really try to work on my communication skills, and learn about how to do focus groups.
It really just grew into then teaching lawyers, having people do focus groups with me and witness prep. You can build a great firm, but you have to make a decision about yourself, about running the business or doing the thing. I saw this as an alternative way. I can still get in the courtroom and help people do these things, without having this giant law firm or really a giant flywheel to support getting enough cases along down the road to go to trial. That's really where I thought, "You know what, if people like this, I'm going to try it," and it worked it.
Chris Dreyer:
Well, there's so much to unpack there. People that don't bring cases to trial are going to have issue. I think it puts more value on what you do, and persuasion, and jury, and focus groups, and everything. To inner circle with Don Keenan, nationally recognized trial lawyer. How did working with him shape your philosophy on jury persuasion?
Elizabeth Larrick:
Coming from a small firm background and then being able to step into a firm where it's national, they trial large cases. That was really what I got a taste of was two-week, three-week trials where we're preparing for months in advance, and really getting to see a solid framework was really helpful. But then also, I think working on the side of we're going to do some workshops. We're going to teach lawyers depositions. Then we're going to teach them mediation. Just being on the other side of that, of getting to see all these different cases and how that consulting worked.
Then really, rolled into "It's jury selection, what are we looking for?" It's a light bulb moment of, "Whoa." And also, getting to see him particularly do jury selection was just, whoa. Then we got to go back and it was like, "Why did you ask that question? What was happening there?" And really getting some good insight onto putting the whole picture together, about strategy, and persuasion, and communication. It really definitely had a huge impact on my creativity of thinking about cases, creativity about thinking about a road ahead for me that, while I liked doing litigation, I didn't love it. How can I move forward in really want to do and help people with this piece that is persuasion, and focus groups, and putting the big picture together?
Chris Dreyer:
That's fantastic. I want to talk about maximizing the case value and the reason we do this. You've got the data users like Sean Claggett, and then you have who don't use big data. It's more psychology and NLP to try to determine what they're going to come in for an offer. Then you've got now the focus groups. We're all trying to do the same thing, we're trying to maximize the case value. Tell me about how they can make an impact and where it comes into play on that side.
Elizabeth Larrick:
I'm working with solo, small firm, sometimes mid-firm. You get that big case, you really need to maximize it. You need to be making really good decisions about what you're asking for, how you're framing the case early on. You get in there and you just think, "Oh, it's an 18-wheeler," or they're just going to hand you over a check. It's like, yeah, they will, but it won't be what you really need to be working that case up.
The way that I like to frame doing these focus groups is because they are as short as an hour, you can get in there, Chris, before you even file and do one hour to find out what is on people's blackboard, and take that into the deposition and start to grow it into something. Because what you want to be able to do is really plan to grow that case in every single possible way. If you try to wait until trial, because people are like, "Well, I'm going to wait. I'm going to only do that mock jury, that large data right at the very end." There are so many places you've missed to maximize case value in the liability facts, in the damages.
It's a small investment with a huge amount of value. You can really start to work that into your case early and show the defense, show the decision makers back there that you're serious and you're doing your homework because you're giving the jury what they already want. People are upfront and they're going to tell you really quickly in those focus groups what they like and what they don't like.
Chris Dreyer:
Sometimes the case looks good on paper, and then it turns out it's looking like it's going to be a money pit. What's something that comes to mind that you've seen from these focus groups really help and avoid those red flags?
Elizabeth Larrick:
Absolutely. A good example I have is where someone is injured on a construction site. Now you've got subcontractors, general contractor, landowner, all these people, and what they wanted to know was are they going to pin down the right person. They just said, "We want to know how they're going to respond and who they're going to put down as responsible." Ultimately, after that focus group they said, "You know what, we're just not going to pursue it. There's just not going to be really a viable way without dumping a large amount of money in it to possibly, maybe get a little bit of recovery."
Chris Dreyer:
I guess in those scenarios it's like, "Hey, let's refer to a legit, well-established litigating firm." Then you're getting the referral, but you also don't have all those costs upfront, so maybe those come into play later.
Let's talk about that smaller firm. I think you've even used the phrase trial ready on a budget. From your experience, what does it look like for a smaller firm to be trial ready without breaking the bank?
Elizabeth Larrick:
I think it's really knowing strategically when to check in, because you want to be able to find the blind spots in a case before you take the big depos. Before you go in and you try to take out an expert. There's a lot of different thoughts on that, but a lot of people really ... Because you really need to be making a decision about trial well beforehand, because you got to save up your dollars, you're not going to be working on anything else.
What I see people who are smaller firms but they want to be trial ready, they want to do it all, they say, "Okay, six months out, let's just do one hour. Okay, now we're three months out, let's do a two hour. Now we're getting a little closer, we're getting a better settlement offer. Let's do it one more time, let's do a three hour." There's a lot of flexibility in these Zoom focus groups. We're not doing the entire case every single time we step into a Zoom focus group. We're probably looking at something in a vacuum. Maybe it's just liability, maybe it's just deposition clips to see what people think about that testimony.
What really happens is most of the time, you're pretty humbled that you thought you took a great deposition and they're thinking it's, "Eh, it's all right." That's the stuff that most trial ready people need to know because, again, smaller to mid-sized firm, you're about to invest 30, 40, 50 grand in a trial. Maybe you don't make that decision and you do pivot to settlement because you're getting mixed reviews. That's really where I feel like people, solo to small firm, even mid-sized firm, can start to check in a little earlier so that you can make decisions, like I said, along the way. Even if you're making the decision, "We're not getting the offer," because that's a lot of times what happens. Maybe you don't have the trial experience, or you're a new firm and they're looking at you like, "We'll roll the dice," and getting that opening statement, getting those things ready.
Then also, what a lot of times happens is you sometimes have to convince your client. In doing these focus groups, investing in your client significantly helps them along the way as well. This is a big differentiation you can make in your law firm when you're telling a client who, maybe they're shopping around, or maybe they've got the friend referral and you know that you're a better fit, how can you tell them you're going to invest in them and you believe in the case? How can you do that? That's, again, where sometimes these solo, small firms are going to be able to stand out because they are trial ready, but they're also investing in the case early on.
Chris Dreyer:
Just from a positioning standpoint, competence builds confidence. When you've done these focus groups and just having the confidence, I think people feel that in the courtroom.
Back to the focus groups, though. You said, one, it was a mixed bag and maybe it could go either way. Do you do a second focus group, a third, a fifth, a tenth? In conversion rate optimization, the nerd stuff for the digital marketing, we might do an A/B split test, and may have to do another split test and incrementality testing. How do you go about the focus groups, how do you make that decision?
Elizabeth Larrick:
It's analysis paralysis. This is part of the reason why I, myself, turn into the other role and got out of running a law firm because I would run way too many focus groups in a lot of my cases, only to really be getting the same feedback, but I just wasn't accepting it.
A lot of times, what happens is we just need more information to make the decision. Ultimately, your client also has to be making that decision. I'm a proponent of making these little, bitty moves along the way, little bitty check ins along the way because if you get down to the end of the line, and you do one of those and it's mixed, your brain is automatically saying, "We got to do another one."
But if you've been working along the way, we can go in and interpret data. "Okay, we're having this one result, but I don't think that's going to cascade over everything. That may be just an outlier that's out there, but don't be too worried about that piece." Because if you're out there doing them on your own and you just do one, it could be terrifying. You want to do more, but you're just like, "Oh my gosh." Or it can scare you the opposite way and you're going to settle, and not do one of these things ever again. Which you don't want that to happen either, it is sometimes a process of trial and error. From a cost perspective, you have to draw the line.
What I also see people doing is not even diving into the information that they have, and that's what I try to tell people to do. "Look, you've done three. That's great. Go back and dive into that." Mine some more of that information out of what they're saying to you, and then ultimately how does it fit into the whole plan, the scheme of what you're doing, and how it will all lay out.
Chris Dreyer:
I think that's incredibly smart. We know these insurance companies are mining data on everyone, and we got to max them, we got to try cases. We can't just settle everything.
I'm a trial attorney. I picked up a catastrophic case, fill in the gap there. Never done a focus group and I want to work with you. Tell me about the process, the engagement, what you do, how it functions. Give me the starts to where you're working with this person.
Elizabeth Larrick:
Most people, they listen to the podcast and they hear Sean Claggett, or they hear somebody else talk about big data, but they also know, "I don't have that war chest. I need to start somewhere where I feel comfortable." A lot of times, people come with me with a specific problem, or a unique case and it's just like, "I don't even know."
Then what we do is we work together to figure out what is the best plan for you. Is it just a one-hour, or is it two, or is it three? Where are you at in your case? I like to look at the information, that's where my trial lawyer comes in and I want to see the details. We work together, we plan, we scheme. Typically, what ends up happening is sometimes they'll present and I'll just moderate. Then we have a debrief session, where we really talk about what did you hear, what did you see. Because I want to train people to be doing them. You can do these on your own. That's a whole big part of what I want people to start to do these on their own. Solo, small firm, do these on your own.
Chris Dreyer:
There you have it, a game changing approach that lets a small personal injury firm make smart decisions on big cases without breaking the bank. Virtual focus groups aren't just a cost-saving tool, they're a strategic advantage that can help you confidently handles cases you might have referred out in the past. If you found value in this conversation, make sure to subscribe to PIM so you never miss insights that could transform your practice. I'm Chris Dreyer, this is Personal Injury Mastermind. Thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
