Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Gold Medal Moments on Personal Injury Mastermind. The special miniseries highlights my favorite lessons from the trailblazers and thought leaders who will speak at the inaugural PIMCon, the Personal Injury Mastermind conference starting this Sunday, September 15. Trust me, you don't want to miss this. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer. Over the past few weeks, we've shared can't miss insights to help get your firm from good to go. This week's guest is no exception. Today we learned from one of the battle tested titans of personal injury, Alexander Shunnarah. His empire spans over 24 locations across 18 states with a team of over 500, including over 140 lawyers. We're talking about a firm that's recovered over $1.5 billion for its clients. Over the past 23 years, traditional marketing has laid the groundwork for his national success. We'll dive deep into his billboard strategy becomes the stuff of legend.
Explore how he's built a scene of legal thoroughbreds and get his insights on balancing volume with high stakes litigation. It's not just about size and billboards folks, Alex shares what it truly means to be the best option for your clients. We're talking about a man with $50 million working for his clients at any time. That's the kind of war chest most firms can only dream of. Get ahead of the competition with highlights from the go to traditional marketing with Alexander Shunnarah. Hear Alex live at PIMCon. Secure your spot at PIMCon.org. Use code PEMALEX for $200 off your ticket. Let the gold medal moments begin.
Alexander Shunnarah:
I'm a Palestinian Christian boy and my dad migrated over, went to the Navy and then got out and went back to the motherland and then came back and of course I was born and raised here in Birmingham. About 10 years old, he took me to the flea markets with him, and that's just kind of the way he fed the family and made the living. I mean, when you're 10 years old and you're sitting behind a table and you've got whatever he's got for the day, these glasses or something, and the whole premise is you buy something for a dollar and you sell it for $2. But look, it really gave me confidence. I learned how to speak to people. I learned how to sell. I learned how to be comfortable in any type of setting. You learn how to negotiate. You learn work ethic. When you're out there at Saturday morning from like you got to get there at six and set it all up and then break it all down at six at night.
It's 100 degrees in Alabama and mosquitoes are biting you. It was, but you love it and you embrace it and you celebrate it, like we do now in the legal space. When we're successful, you get that dopamine, that serotonin, that high when you know at the end of the day subconsciously that maybe your skill set helped bring in a couple of hundred dollars. And that's the way we ate. Man, I have a lot of respect for my daddy's 86, I do want to shout out without him I would not be here, I pray that every person that's on this podcast has a dad the way I had one or still have one.
He's been such a blessing, a biggest fan, old school. No one's smarter than you. No one's better than you. All the cliche, we all put on our pants one leg at a time. We're all humans. And I worked side by side with him in the 7-Eleven while I was in school and law school. And I've really never worked for anyone except I took a job, I worked out of law school, I worked for a firm for five years before I hung my shingle. So my entire life it's just been, hey, get up and go make it yourself. So I'm pretty used to it.
Chris Dreyer:
Right, at 34, I believe you struck out, so pretty young and in those early days you had a realization I think many of us had, but you thought about a different, your realization about thoroughbreds, and I'm going to mess up the saying a little bit, but you've got a saying I love, "You can't take a pack of mules to the horse track, so I didn't stop until I got the thoroughbreds." So tell me about, I guess building the firm and looking for those thoroughbreds and how you approached the hiring side.
Alexander Shunnarah:
So when I went to work at that firm, that plaintiff's firm, and I'll give them a shout-out, it's a Birmingham firm called Corey Watson, and actually my cousin Ernie Corey, who's pretty well known in the mass horse space, owned it. I was a sponge there for about five years and I learned how to run a law firm and I saw the difference and it wasn't that big. It's more of a boutique firm, but he had about 10 lawyers. I was number 10 on the bottom of the pole. And you quickly figure out there's like two or three that have that it factor and the others. And then I would, looking at him, he was the entrepreneurial guy like myself. I took all the good from that firm and there was just certain things I didn't like, like every other job or whatever, and I said, I'm not going to bring those into my firm.
But the one thing I did take away from it was if you don't have great trial lawyers, you're going into a gun fight with a knife, you have no chance really. Every person that's ever filed a lawsuit says they're a trial lawyer. And I was joking, that works great on a Friday night if you're a single man and you're trying to get a girlfriend or something. But in the real world, I mean there's just different degrees of attorneys and that's no knock on any lawyer because we all have skill sets, but we all know that when you're taking on a Fortune 500 company, they've got some pretty good lawyers, they have unlimited resources. And if you think of mass torts, which is a little different, I mean look, you get the best 100 trial law firms all at one time with their capital, with their resources, with their skill sets, and they still have to fight them for 10 years.
So it's a little easier in the single event space because a good two-man team, look, I've got some cases right now. I've got one case right now. My expenses are $430,000, I mean that's just one case. But they're not, most of the time a good trucking case depending on what state, $100,000 in investment, depending, they're all different. But I mean that's an investment of a few years and that's the great thing about a contingency fee. You put your money where your mouth is and so you better, unless you want to lose, I mean you better have some real people fighting for you.
Chris Dreyer:
You're nationwide, you're litigating cases, you got the war chest. How do you balance the expansion with the right people? Like, hey, I've got a great trial attorney leading this state or that state. How does that factor into your expansion plans?
Alexander Shunnarah:
If you're expanding, your first guy needs to be your best guy. If you can find him. Now, if you find someone better, that's great, but right out of the gates, you got to find the guy that when those cases come in that need to be filed, that you have that person who actually can litigate that case, file that case. I mean, you and I both know in this space that you had 275 million cars, only 32 million are commercial vehicles. So we always say nine out 10 are going to be just a policy case and nine out of the nine out 10 are only going to have the minimum policy. So it is a numbers game. So when you get that one out of 10, that is where you make your profit really. That's really, it's a difficult time right now. It's very difficult to just make money on the personal policy cases with the cost per acquisition, payroll is 20% most places now, there's an influx of money coming in.
It's just really difficult to be profitable. I said, look, this wouldn't be a good business if we didn't have the outlier cases like the mackerels, and I call them minnows mackerels, marlins, I mean, that's where you get your lift. I mean, you need every law firm, and I hope this happens to every law firm at least has one, two, three good cases a year and can just really drill down on those cases and maximize them and monetize it. For anything for the client because those people are injured so badly and catastrophically, they need a great law firm that's going to litigate those cases and get them because their life has altered forever.
Chris Dreyer:
If those individuals that don't have the war chest and they do the settlement, they're not doing right by the client, it might help their immediate cash flow needs, but ultimately they need to get what they deserve because like you said, it impacts their lives.
Alexander Shunnarah:
I do believe this too. I think the most important decision, it's interesting, most important decision that a client can ever make will be the day he signs up on a law firm. No offense to other law firms, but there are law firms that take cases that they're not equipped to handle. That's kind of an injustice to a client, at least refer those cases out.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I agree. And I'd say that the settlement firms, if they refer to a firm like yours that will trial and work them up, they'll find out that they're going to get more money than the settlement in the first place and they don't have to deploy all the labor. That's what's so confusing to me, is the pre-lit settlement, everybody calls them the mill. When you start talking headcount and bodies, your facility costs, your salaries and everything working up these cases on the assembly line, it's just they're not getting value and your profits ate up to the labor.
Alexander Shunnarah:
It's crazy. So once again, once you get past the... Look, if there's $25,000 in a case, there's $25,000 in any case, and it doesn't matter if they're, god forbid, paralyzed or they've got connective tissue back and neck, it's okay to take, sometimes you're taking 18 on a case that's worth 21. Okay, all right. How bad is the harm? You need to move that case. But when you're taking 50 grand on a case that's worth 75 or then go, you're taking 200 on a case that's worth 300 and the number just keeps escalating. You're taking a million on a case worth two million, you're taking five million on a case that's worth eight million. One, you're not doing right by the client for sure and it's just not fair. And I think I told you, I don't ever said that. There's a little story, I call it the man in the mirror.
I just one day I'm entrepreneurial, I've got good sales, my strengths are people skills. I mean, I'm authentic, I'm truthful. I remember signing this lady up for a wrongful death case and she really liked me. When she left at that time in 2010, I remember it vividly. I had that moment where you're thinking to yourself and I guess that's good, you've self-reflected. And I'm just like, "Am I really the best firm for her in the state of Alabama?" And I remember looking in the mirror, I could count about five firms that I knew honestly would've been a better choice for her, and that day I vowed that we were going to be that firm and then everything moving forward, that is my mantra. And now I can honestly say, and I mean this respectfully, and there's a lot of great trial attorneys across the country.
I feel like that I don't care where the case is, I don't, in any 50 states, Puerto Rico too. I don't care where the case is. I feel like that if we get an opportunity to work that claim, we have everything you need to get as much money on that case as any other firm in America. I truly believe that, in the single event space, in the single event space, it's just understanding of the space and knowing what you have to do, what experts you have to hire. That case I'm telling you about that I have about 430,000 and I have eight experts, eight and one of the experts who's crucial to the case. We interviewed five different experts before we found the one that we liked. It's a very complex case. They say cases are won and lost on experts. There's a lot of things that are cases that are won on, the thoroughbreds, the experts, the venue, knowing how to put the right 12 people in the box. There's a lot of moving parts to it.
Chris Dreyer:
It's odd to me, counter all the insurance companies, it seems like they're collaborating a lot. They got Colossus, they're all sharing the data. Why don't you think that happens more in your space? Is it just because of the jurisdiction and fractured and it's not as consolidated, do you think, that lack of transparency on data?
Alexander Shunnarah:
Well, I don't think that that data really exists because I don't think lawyers are really good at keeping data, much less going out and collaborating would be a different story. But yeah, if you ask me honestly today, I don't think that if you took the top 100 firms that they would share their data with each other. I just don't think that'll happen. But the insurance companies, again, yes, not only do they share their data, I forgot the name of the company, they use this one company that just extrapolates all the data amongst all the insurance companies to all 200 and pretty much can tell them anything.
What Colossus is, you basically send in your demand over there and it basically looks for certain key points and key factors, basically looking at what type of treatment they had and then I guess their own data historically tells them based on venue, law firms, type of injury, what those settlements should be and what range that they should settle those claims for. But I think right now we're in, I don't think they care at all, meaning they're just going to lowball offer you on every claim right now.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. That's what I'm hearing. They're kind of forcing people to trial. So a firm that's set up like yours where you got a bunch of thoroughbreds, a bunch of trial attorneys, I wanted to lean into that, where you're one of the few firms in the nation that does volume and litigates, so it brings with us some additional challenges. Because you're out there, you're bringing in your cases from a lot of different areas. How do you balance cashflow and litigating these cases? I think those other volume firms, they're just getting the checks in, these settlements quickly and like you said, you got one case, it's got 430 K in it, so how do you balance that?
Alexander Shunnarah:
Well, I've been fortunate. I've never borrowed any money and most people don't know that. I think it took me longer to build my business because I never got any cash infusion from anyone, but I would rather not get in a project if I can't afford to get in a project. You can get in trouble financially, and it's really no different than when they tell individuals don't get no credit card debt because you can't get out of it. It's the same principle for lawyers. I don't know how we've pulled it off, but my revenue has been able to exceed my expenses every month. I've never missed a month.
Now, it may be by $10 because sometimes of the timing, but we have never been in a situation where going out was more than coming in. I know we're talking to some lawyers today. I would say, look, get a hold of your expenses. Know what's going out, know what's coming in. You've got to pay attention to that because it's a real expensive business, like you said, especially your expenses in the case, your expenses in the acquisition, what you pay your attorneys, what you pay your payroll to all your staff members. I mean you've really got to pay attention or you'll just dig a hole like there's no tomorrow.
Chris Dreyer:
I think one of the things is getting those cases and in 2022 you had 2,000 billboards. You had 1,000 wrapped cars just a few years ago, and I've had this theory and I've said this and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong here. To buy that many billboards, it's like you get economies of scale. Do you get the ability to negotiate due to the volume and say, hey, is there strategies by buying more, you actually can get them at a cheaper price? What's the strategy to get that many billboards? When I priced them out individual, it's an absolute fortune.
Alexander Shunnarah:
Well, to be very honest with you, I don't think it's a secret. I was fortunate. I built a really great relationship with Lamar advertising, who is now the largest outdoor advertising agency in the country. They're always buying out smaller agencies. I think sometimes timing matters. I got into a situation, Chris, where around 2008 when the mortgage crisis hit, the occupancy rate on billboards was about 50 or 60%. It was really, really bad at that time. And at the same time, I had read an article, and I think I told you this in the Wall Street Journal or the USA that said print was dying and no offense, and it said San Francisco, the city of San Francisco had outlawed their phone books. So I'll never forget about that and we're always slow to move down here in Alabama and in the south. So I just took that to mean that print was dying and I needed to try something differently.
And I'll tell you, it was weird about the outdoor advertising because there was no lawyers that ever used that platform. But you know me, I'm curious, and I'm like, okay, I got to get out of print. What am I going to do? Just on my own, just did my resource because I said, well, Nike does it and Apple's doing it. They had just started their iPhone. McDonalds, Coca-cola, why do they do this? And so I understood and I read about it, some of the takeaways, branding is long-term. And so I started thinking, I didn't know we were going to be nationwide, but I said, okay, I'm a lawyer. I don't want do anything else. I live in Alabama. I've got family here. We've got daughters. I'm in it for the long haul. I remember reading about some of the things we know, keep it clean, the cleaner, the better, seven words or less.
When you get to Nike, you can just put the swish or the McDonald's M. But they said it had something called a king factor where you keep driving by that board and it'll ping you consciously and then sometimes subconsciously. But the thing that I thought was interesting, which is held true, the second year is better than the first year, and the third year is better than the second year. And the fourth year is better than the third year. So the longer, so there's a long, long game but then you get that brand awareness, and I don't even know if a law firm can actually be a brand, but we are I guess now a brand, at least in our local markets or wherever we are. For me, it has worked out. And to answer your question, to go back real fast, Chris.
So I went to him and I said, "Look, I got this." I got out of all the phone books, I've got this amount of money to spend. And I started pricing those billboards, like you said, and some of them are outrageous. And I said, look, "I'll give you X dollars," which was like say half the rate card. And they're like, "Oh, you're crazy." I said, "No, that's what I want. Can you work with me?" And they're like, "No." I said, "Well, what do you do with all your empty billboards?" And at that time they said, "Well, we do PSAs." And they still do PSAs when they have an empty billboard, public service announcements. And I said, "Well, you can't do half the state in public service announcements." Because they'd have to go print them all up and do all that. And about a month later, they came back to me and took the deal and then eventually they moved into what is called and they've got it in certain markets. They call it like a preemptible deal where if a billboard is empty, they'll sell it to you at a reduced price.
Chris Dreyer:
Remnant, is that the remnant?
Alexander Shunnarah:
Yeah. And it's no different than when you doing a national television buy, where CNN and some of these places, they'll sell you the remnants for much cheaper because the space just needs to be filled. The whole thing about billboards right now, it's all supply and demand. The whole world is supply and demand. I mean, people say, "Well, what do you pay for this? Or what do you pay for that?" It's not that I'm smarter than anybody in any way, but I'm looking for the deal. Meaning that if a person could sell a radio spot for $75 and there's 10 people waiting for that 32nd spot, you're not getting it for $25 because they don't need you. But if they can't sell it, you might get it for $25 because it's all supply and demand. That's all marketing is in general.
Chris Dreyer:
Pricing arbitrage, wherever individuals congregates an opportunity to advertise. I mean, we've had a lot of personal conversations about this, and the crazy thing is, look, I'm known as the digital guy, but I love billboards and I'll tell you why. They're like, to me, they're like, I'm a real estate guy, Alex, they're like triple net to me. They're there, they're consistent. Look, we're not teleporting to work we're driving, and you compare that to TV and now you've got streaming and Google's all expanding to LSA and social now has Meta and TikTok and the billboards stood the test of time from an investment perspective.
Alexander Shunnarah:
I tell you, outdoor advertising had its difficulties for a while, but the digital world, which is what you understand as well as anybody I've ever met, has really helped outdoor advertising like you said, because it's taken people, everybody's mobile like you said, and so they've kind of benefited. They're not really compete with anyone like you said, but everybody just understands they're out there, like you said, and people that use them for branding purposes. I think it's a compliment. And as we say in your world, when you're doing some of that social media and some platforms, digital SEO, all those things, I think you get a lift from the billboards.
Chris Dreyer:
Absolutely do. And I'll tell you this, Alex, yesterday, May 27th, Google leaked its algorithm. It was uploaded to GitHub and all us SEO nerds are going through it on the ranking factors. It just happened and one of the statements in there was talking about brands and how it impacts search due to the visitors and their interactivity with the site and the capturing clicks, and it actually promotes brands. So it's not only in theory, I mean it's definitely proven on the digital side.
Alexander Shunnarah:
And the thing that we have to worry about, I guess in the outdoor space, once again, it's supply and demand. I guess we got to hope that, look, when their occupancy is 90, 95%, yo know their rates are going to be higher, and when they go back to 70, 75%, 80%, depending on the market, they open up different types of opportunities to get in at a better rate.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. So wholeheartedly with all that and supply and demand on Google's auction too for ads, I see those electronic billboards and they drive me nuts. First of all, it feels like the companies, they're trying to get more ad spots on a single location, but I'll be at a stoplight and I'll briefly see it and then I miss the ad. To me personally, I don't like those as much, and it seems like they're trying to get the same fees for them. Any thoughts on those?
Alexander Shunnarah:
Yeah, I'm with you. I like the traditional large billboards, the 14 by 48s. Look, they're doing their very best, the outdoor space to get as many of them as they can. They fight the municipalities. There are certain places where it's a constant fight between them and the cities to put them up because they're a cash cow for the outdoor advertisers. They'll run eight people on one side of a billboard. So all of a sudden you took one billboard and you times it eight. Yeah, it may cost you a half a million dollars to put up a billboard, a real nice digital billboard. But look, I mean they push those like there's no tomorrow.
Now we use them a little bit in certain spots, but we also do that, sometimes they have those remnant packages that you're talking about too, where there's opportunities. It just depends on the markets. Like, an example, right now I live in Alabama on the Gulf Coast. Well, everybody in the world is headed down to the beach. They'll just blanket the beach and the entire pretty much just run that thing from Jacksonville, Florida all the way down 10 as far as you can go down the coastline. But everybody goes back on Labor Day and here all the deals you want are in October, November, December. The argument is the eyeballs are not there.
Chris Dreyer:
Earlier this year, I made the poor decision, Alex, and I know we talked on the phone to drive to Miami. I thought, hey, I got a nice car. We'll have a nice drive down to Miami with the wife and kid. First of all, I was completely wrong on that decision, but I must've saw your billboards 1,000 times. And I, on that stretch, all the way from Illinois down to Miami, I mean a ton. And of course I'm looking for the PI too, billboards, but-
Alexander Shunnarah:
To some degree, I feel like I was the first guy that did billboards in mass, and now you see that happening in other markets. I joke with Lamar that they should give me a better deal because I'm the one that made their stock go up to $100 a share because it's kind of like the new phone book. Everybody wants one.
Chris Dreyer:
I think that's how Ted Turner got a start. He had a billboard company, then he went over to TV and the Braves, but they've just stood the test of time, like I said, because transportation hasn't changed significantly and tech and these other avenues have.
Alexander Shunnarah:
I agree with you, I think, look, I guess for our purpose today, I think if someone can take a portion of their budget depending on where they are, I think it's a good asset play for a part of a maybe comprehensive type marketing plan.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. Especially get down to the end of the year, maybe kick that tax liability down a little bit. Kick the can down the road.
Alexander Shunnarah:
And you know what? They'll let you pay in advance. I mean, you come around December and you want to buy for the next year. Hell, they'll take that whole check before December 31st.
Chris Dreyer:
I had Steve Gersten from Michigan on recently, and he was talking about collision detection and hell, you can't wreck some of these cars. You can't rear end someone with a Tesla. It's hard. How do you think this collision detection is going to impact the auto space?
Alexander Shunnarah:
There's no doubt that cars are safer, but that's a great thing, right? We have family. That's a great thing. Cars are safer. Technology still screws up a lot. You hear about, you just said Tesla. Well, if you really want to look at Tesla, go and look at all the stuff that you're not hearing about. I mean, there are so many problems with Tesla where people are getting catastrophically injured also. But as a general rule, cars are getting safer. You know me, I also believe that big money wins and costs matter. Personally as a trial lawyer and what I've seen for the last 28 years of my life, I don't think that we'll ever have a problem finding cases to work on because of all the lobbying and all the money that comes in and the cost saving measures to corporations. If it's in medicine, healthcare, banking regulations, automobile industry, environmental, it doesn't matter. There will be so many cases to work on, at least in my lifetime.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's just too much money. The insurance companies are going to also, they're going to push the envelope. They're going to do everything they can to shortchange the consumer, and that creates opportunity for those that can create value and help the plaintiff.
Alexander Shunnarah:
The biggest challenge is really the tort reform that we're dealing in our industry because of the incredible lobbying effects and the influence that corporate America has over the legislature and each state. And truly sad to watch, honestly, individual rights being taken away, really taken away, and the normal individual doesn't even know it's being taken away until an incident happens to them. And then you explain to them, well, there's a non-economic cap in this state. And let's say Mississippi, it's a million dollars, but you're paralyzed, but you're only going to get a million dollars, but your life care plan is 30 million.
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal.
Alexander Shunnarah:
It's unreal.
Chris Dreyer:
What's next for the firm? What's the vision look like? What are you casting out there?
Alexander Shunnarah:
I just want to continue to build A plus legal services because if you've got, back to the thoroughbreds, if you've got A plus legal services, I mean, you can have a tremendous impact and it opens you up to do pretty much whatever you want. I've always said there's only three rules in this business. It's very complicated. But in the end, remember what I said? I've got to say cases are king. So I don't care what anybody says. And that's difficult right now, you know that, you've got 100 law firms that you help or more. And if you don't have a client, what are you going to work on? So you got to spend your time figuring out how to get a client. That's number one and it'll always be number one. And then two, you have to have those thoroughbreds. You can't take a pack of mules to the horse track.
And then three, from an operational standpoint, revenue conquers all. You better have enough money coming in to carry that machine because if you don't have one, two, or three, you're just in a lot of trouble, man. You're in a lot of trouble. And out of those categories, you can talk about how to get cases for two years. You can talk about operational for five years on the revenue side, you can talk about strategy and how to find these trial lawyers and what makes them stay. You can talk about that for a year. But the three prongs are those three prongs in the law space. And you could probably say that to a degree in any business. They joke around, you got your getters, your doers, that type of, I forgot what the saying is, but you got to have those three components to any business.
Chris Dreyer:
I agree. I agree. This has been amazing for the PI attorneys listening that may have a big case that want to bring in an expert litigating firm, how can they get in touch with you?
Alexander Shunnarah:
Look, we'll work with anyone in any capacity because we just like relationships. We refer out a bunch too, because we can't be everywhere. But my number is 205-243-5297. And I think you'll like this. I guess I'm old and ancient. So when I got my cell phone, it was Powertel, and then Powertel became T-Mobile, and that was my first marketing. You could pick your number back then. So 243-5297 is 243 loss. And that was my first marketing piece because that's all I could afford.
Chris Dreyer:
That wraps up this Gold Medal Moments featuring the GOAT of traditional marketing, Alexander Shunnarah. Visit PIMCon.org to go from good to GOAT and join Alex and me in Scottsdale, September 15th through 17th, this Sunday. We will conquer personal injury marketing, network with industry titans, celebrate excellence, and become the greatest of all time in personal injury law. Only a few tickets are left to secure your all access pass today. Just head to PIMCon.org, that's P-I-M-C-O-N dot O-R-G. I'm Chris Dreyer, thanks for listening to these gold medal moments, the hope to see you in the winter circle at PIMCon. For $200 off use code PIMALEX, that's P-I-M-A-L-E-X.
