Frank Azar:
The problem is not getting the cases; it's what you dowith them when you get them. And what kind of money do you make out of them?
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host,Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the legal marketing company thebest firms hire when they want the rankings, traffic, and cases other law firmmarketing agencies can't deliver. On this show, I've been fortunate enough tolearn from some of the best minds in the personal injury space, and now we'rebringing them together in one place for the first ever PIM Conference.
PIMCon is coming to Scottsdale this September. We'relaser-focused on one thing, getting more leads. I'm not talking about just anyleads, but quality leads that actually turn into cases. That's it. That's ourentire focus. It's not just theory, we're talking about actionable strategiesthat have been tried and tested by some of the best in the business. If you'relooking to conquer personal injury marketing and go from good to goat, PIMConis where you need to be. We gather the top PI marketing experts to share theirsecrets, and believe me, this is cutting-edge stuff you won't find anywhereelse. Don't miss out on another potential client, grab your ticket to PIMConnow and get ready to supercharge your practice. Your future self will thankyou. Go to pimcon.org. All right, let's dive in.
We're joined today by a true titan of the personal injuryworld, Frank Azar, founder of Franklin D. Azar & Associates, the largestpersonal injury law firm in Colorado. Frank isn't just another successfulattorney, he's the man behind an $11.5 million verdict against a major footballhelmet manufacturer, a key player in the multi-state class action againstWalmart that resulted in over $750 million in settlements, and The Strong Armon television screens across Colorado. With 30-plus attorneys, more than 14office locations, and have practice founded in 1987, Frank has weathered everystorm and trend of the personal injury landscape. He's mastered the art ofbuilding a powerful brand while keeping a commitment to client care. In thisepisode, Frank shares his unfiltered insights on everything from effectivemarketing strategies to the power of litigation expertise. Here's Frank Azar,The Strong Arm.
Frank Azar:
My dad was a lawyer, so I didn't have much of a chance.Actually, my brother and my sister are also lawyers. And I always wanted to bea lawyer, because I found out in eighth grade you didn't have to be that goodat math to be a lawyer, so I thought that's what I would be.
Chris Dreyer:
That's awesome. That's amazing. So you got the familypressure too there with the lawyers.
Frank Azar:
My dad went to Harvard Law School on a scholarship, he wasso smart. My brother and I, and we're looking his notebooks from Harvard LawSchool, and I go, "Oh, my God." And I said, "Did your notebookslook like that in law school?" I go, "No." I go, "Didyours?" He goes, "No way." Unbelievable work. My brother alwayssays, "Who's the best lawyer of them all, mirror, mirror on thewall?" And he asked me that question for many years. I said, "Is itthe richest one of all?" He goes, "You got it. Now you know yourpractice of law."
Chris Dreyer:
That's good.
Frank Azar:
Unfortunately, that's been the driving force in ourbusiness, is how much money can you make? And I think we've lost sight of theplaintiffs. It's just gotten ridiculous. And one of the things I was thinkingabout on this podcast is this Google SEO. This thing has basically created a bunchof lawyers that are mediocre, not probably competent to sit there. And peoplehave no idea who they are, what their track record is, and a lot of thesepeople in Colorado aren't even from Colorado. And these people are picking themoff the internet and just going to their website. Which I think, in the olddays, people went with somebody that had a reputation that they knew, like me,who've been on TV for 40 years. But now, there's no way to see how much betterany other lawyer is than the other lawyer. They have these companies that runaround giving the awards, the Best Super Lawyer of the Year Award. What thehell does all that crap mean? Really, seriously?
Chris Dreyer:
The litigating firm has the client, the plaintiff'sinterest, because you're getting maximum value. You're helping them, you're notjust taking the settlement check because you have some cashflow issues. Do youthink that in this environment where it's more competitive now that thelitigating firms are actually getting stronger, or do you think that thesettlement firms still have a model of churn and burn? What do you think?
Frank Azar:
This is what I think is happening, the lead is being takenby State Farm. And as I told you the other day, I said, "State Farm, theyused to..." Most insurance companies with my competitors play the game ofchicken. Are they going to file suit or not? 95% of them aren't going to evenfile suit. State Farm has taken it a step further, and now they're sitting andthey're saying, "Are you going to try the case?" And they're notmaking any decent offers until maybe 30 days before trial. We had one wherethey didn't offer until a week before trial. The rest of these guys, they don'teven file suit. State Farm is offering below half the meds, and they're sittingthere saying, "File it." And these guys, "Okay, well I'm goingto file it." And then State Farm doesn't offer them anything.
Oh, look and behold, you're going to have to try thiscase, Mr. Attorney that says they're so great on their internet advertising.Guess what? They've never tried a case. They've never filed a case. And this iswhat I saw in 1994. State Farm and Allstate decided they weren't going to payon these soft tissue cases anymore, they were going to get real tough onlow-impact. And they did, they stopped paying on them. They used to pay threetimes the meds, and everybody went along their jolly way. That's not happeninganymore. Lawyers are a dime a dozen. They can hire them out of law school tocome in there and work in these in-house law firms, and sit there and basicallywork for nothing. And have these huge caseloads, 350 caseloads in thesein-house insurance company law firms. And guess what? They don't care howoverworked these people are. They don't care how many cases they got to go totrial.
We had one of the persons from... I'm not going to mentionthe insurance company. We went down for a pretrial conference. He had threecases set at the same time our case was going to trial, and then he told thejudge, "I'm going on vacation for two weeks." The judge startedscreaming at him, and the guy says, "Just a minute, let me go back andtalk to the adjuster," and got more money on it. But this law firm is oneof the major law firms for one of the bigger companies, and every time they'retriple-set. At a minimum, these guys are going in there and trying these cases.
Chris Dreyer:
It's turning everything into a commodity, which is arace-to-the-bottom scenario. That's where tech comes into play and AI andnearshoring, because you don't need the skilled labor. Not to say there isn'ttalent internationally, I'm just saying you just don't need as much of it, andyou don't need the control.
Frank Azar:
It depends what you're talking about, mass torts for PI orother avenues.
Chris Dreyer:
Well, I know how you feel about mass torts, so I won't gothat route. Let me take you back to the litigating. You're an advertisinglitigating firm, which is not common. Most of the pre-lit and the settlementfirms, they can handle volume because they're not going to trial, it's just onthe assembly line. There's just so much complexity to advertising on TV anddigital and everything you're doing on billboards. What does the model look,it's just higher case selection criteria? Is that what it is?
Frank Azar:
I think it's changed a lot, and now that these insurancecompanies are going to the mattresses, a phrase out of The Godfather, I thinkyou've got to be able to have people. And first of all, they can push a buttonat these insurance companies on their computer, and they can tell youeverything about a lawyer. Does this guy file suit? Does he try cases? Moreimportantly, does he win cases? And you know what, if you don't meet thesecriteria, they're going to sit there and offer you garbage. And they're going toknow who you are, and after a while, you're going to have a track record ofsitting there settling. And they're going to know that you're a settler.
And for instance, I was talking to an adjuster that workedfor one of the major insurance companies the other day, and he told me... I wasasking him about one of my competitors, he's down in southern Colorado, andthis guy had been working down there for six years for a major insurancecompany. And I said, "How many cases did so-and-so file in the six years you'vebeen working down there?" He goes, "Zero." I go, "Zerocases?" He goes, "Yeah, they sit here and call up and threaten us 14times. But we know they're never going to file suit, so we just laugh, andeventually they end up taking it and forcing some crappy settlement down someclient's throat that doesn't know better."
And that's what each and every one of these guys prettymuch does when it comes down to doing this work, and they haven't caught on.For instance, there's one insurance company that we found out they had put 250of our cases with the same two adjusters. And these adjusters would just stickto the meds, and once we filed suit, they'd sit there and pay us. They'd sendit to another adjuster. And I said, "You're sitting there running my guysthrough the wring." They wouldn't give us the policy limits. So, I justtook 150 cases one week and filed them all. Caused a meltdown.
They were paying us on cases where there was $5,000 inmeds and paying us the policy limits of $100,000. They couldn't handle it. Andthey started paying us... We got paid on cases we never should have gotten paidon. "Stop, stop, Frank, let's sit here and talk about this." I said,"You want us to file suit? We're going to go in there, and some of thesecases are going to get tried, and you're going to have excess liability, $4 or$5 million cases." I said, "I'm going to pull the rug out on you. Yougo explain to your insured how you have this program of not paying plaintiff'sattorneys until they file suit. Go explain it to your insured."
Chris Dreyer:
That's how you get the big cases, and that's how you getthe value. And also, that's also the margins. When you're commoditized, there'sno profit margins to take, because there's no value there.
Frank Azar:
I always like to tell this story. I had this kid that wasworking for me, this is 15, 20 years ago. And he was a really bright guy, verybright. He had worked as an insurance adjuster before he came to work for us,and then he went to law school. After he passed the bar, he came to work forus. And this guy knew more about how to push the buttons on an insurancecompany than anybody that I'd ever met. He was smart, and he knew how insurancecompanies worked. And one of his friends inherited a lot of money. A lot. Andthey decided they were going to go out and be Frank Azar. And he went outthere, and they advertised, and they spent a lot of money in advertising. Acouple things happened. Number one, is he didn't really get a lot of cases, buthe got a really big case, the multimillion-dollar case. And they wouldn'tsettle it with him. They had a really serious liability on it, and the damageswere huge.
He says, "They won't settle. Will you come in hereand help me and litigate this case?" I showed up at the mediation, and theyturned around and settled it with us. And I went to the mediator. I said,"How come they wouldn't settle with this kid? It's no different than whenI came in later." He says, "Frank," he says, "they knowthis kid doesn't have the money to put into this case. It's going to cost a lotof money. And two, he's never tried a case this big." And he doesn'thave... They wouldn't even make him an offer. So, that's what happens, is youdon't have the cred, credibility, as I call it with these guys, they know it. Andif you think that they think you're some great trial lawyer and they're goingto pay, you're not going to get the maximum dollars on these cases. And even ifyou sit here and file suit, you got to be able to try them and win.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. And you guys have incredible verdicts, incredibleresults.
Frank Azar:
We've got the best results of anybody in this state, andit's just... People don't understand it. And that's why when these guys sitthere and hire a lawyer off the internet, there's no track record. How manycases has the guy tried? How many cases has he filed? And you'll find out mostof these guys have never even tried a case.
Chris Dreyer:
Let me ask you this. A lot of litigating firms, maybe theowner or the partner of the firm is a litigator. And it's small, maybe theyspecialize in TBI or birth or whatever. And most of them get their casesthrough referral. What made you take the decision many years back to go heavyinto TV and to originate your own cases as opposed to just doing the referraloff reputation? What was that moment? Did you just see the writing on the wall,"Hey, I got to build a brand."?
Frank Azar:
We had Norton Frickey here in Denver for years. He was oneof the first people that started advertising in 1978 after the Bates decision.Him, and the other law firm was Sarney, Trattler & Waitkus. And I saw howsuccessful they were. The problem with them is, with those kinds of firms atthat point in time, was they didn't have the lawyers doing the work. Andtherefore, they were just running freaky hat at that point in time, maybe fouror five lawyers. You take a look at Morris Bart in New Orleans, and take a lookat his model. And I hate to say I copy everything he does, but I do.
And he had a small number of lawyers, now he's got 150lawyers. And you're getting more on the cases with lawyers, and you're gettingmore money. They're able to litigate them, you're able to try them, you're ableto develop people in your firm that can try these cases and win them. And Ithink that's one of the things that Morgan & Morgan have done a great jobof, is getting some of their well more experienced lawyers training theiryounger lawyers so they can go in there and try these cases. That's a longevolved process of bringing up these guys and teaching them how to try thesecases. It's a lost art, and Morgan & Morgan has done a good job at doingthat. They file suit on every case. They go in there and they try a lot ofcases. Therefore, they get top dollar.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, and I see that. I agree with you. And Morris, theyrun good practices. One of the things too, you're talking about big brands, andI think Tennessee just did a study where you were number two or number three onthe list. Frank Azar, right there. Now you got this different scenario whereyou got everybody bidding on your name. How do you tackle that versus thebenefit of having the brand? Because clearly Google wants people to bid on yourname, because you got to pay for it, right?
Frank Azar:
We've gotten really down to the nitty-gritty on reallyinterrogating these people how they got to us. And I saw this when I firststarted practicing law, because I saw the law firms that existed back then inColorado. They were these churner burners, and they'd sit there and get in bedwith the chiropractors and run up a big bill, and then chiropractor would sendthem cases and they'd send cases back to the chiropractor. And that whole game.And in the end they were burning people so bad that they didn't get any returnclients. So I said, at that point in time when I started advertising, I said,"I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to sit there and churn andburn." I'm going to sit there and get these people as much money as I can.If a case doesn't work out, I'm going to write it off.
I'm not going to try to get the costs, I'm not going toslap liens. I'm not going to do any of this stuff. And consequently, because ofthat, most of the cases I get are somebody's friend or relative that werepresented, or one of their friends. It used to be about 40, 50% of mypractice, now it's about 80.
Chris Dreyer:
Wow.
Frank Azar:
It used to be, in the old days, people would see me on TVand they'd call right away. That's not how it works anymore. Every timesomebody's calling us, it's because they know my name. It's a branding thing.They may go look for me on Google where these guys are buying my name andaccidentally may call one of these guys. They are sitting there hoping thatsomebody confuses them with you and they get the case. Halfway through, a lotof these people realize it's not Frank Azar and they fire the guys.
Chris Dreyer:
There's several of the legion companies doing that too.Let me ask you, so I had recently... And just your opinion, I had Angel Reyesfrom Dallas on the pod. And he for, I don't know the period of time, but let'ssay 10 plus years spending real dollars on TV. And he made a decision about sixyears ago, he cut TV all together and he's just jamming Google Ads, SEO.Complete, just all in digital. And he made a comment and he said he thinksbrand doesn't matter. And I think you're the whole or opposite, I think you'resaying brand is everything. I don't know, just any thoughts on-
Frank Azar:
I don't mean to be critical of Angel, but Angel's gone ina lot of different directions. And he wasn't a lawn car or an Adler, or any ofthose guys down there in Dallas. And he didn't stick to TV, and he did get aname. And it doesn't work unless you stick with it and get a name and namerecognition and you're there day in and day out so people get to know you.
Chris Dreyer:
So you think that the brand equity has to compound overyears to be that just top of mind? In St. Louis, when I go into St. Louis, Ithink Brown & Crouppen a lot of times. I know a lot of firms ruining legaland Schultz Myers. I've seen their billboards for my whole life.
Frank Azar:
I have so many that'll tell me. I was down in ColoradoSprings the other day and we were shooting a public service ad for one of theTV stations, and one of the assistants there in the camera room came up to me,she says, "Can I have your autograph and get a picture with you?" Isaid, "Oh, sure. Why?" She says, "I've been watching you since Iwas four years old." I don't care how much money you spend on SEO orTikTok or whatever, you can't beat that. You cannot beat that.
Chris Dreyer:
I agree. I'll say this too, my wife when we're driving,she'll say, "Oh, they must be legit, they're on TV or billboardstoo." So there's also some of that social proof. Now we know the truththat many of the advertisers are not legit, not litigating firms. I think theperception from the consumer is that they are.
Frank Azar:
And that's a point. I was talking to another person that'sin our business, and I made that point. I said, "Now, any guy can sit thereand get a case through any of these various, what I call nefarious means,TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or whatever. They're not going to generate thenumber of cases that TV advertising generated. Ever. Ever." SEO might.Over time, it's a question of whether it's going to continue to do that or not.But as Google's algorithms figure out what's really going on, there's going tobe some problems. But I think at this point, at this juncture, the public isnot getting an idea who they're getting as a lawyer. And once they find outthis isn't working for them, they're just going to go back to the people thathave the brand names. And even though...
My competitors, their whole deal is we don't have anylawyers. We don't care about having any lawyers. We're going to sit here andsettle your case and just lure you in on TV. And people just don't know whatthey're getting when they're doing that. And I feel bad for them. But in thesame sense, I'd rather see somebody go to one of my competitors where there's theoreticallya warrior at one of these places that'll figure out they've got a great caseand do something with it. Whereas, one of these kids coming out of law schooland getting on TikTok and getting a couple cases, that guy is an accidentwaiting to happen, in my opinion.
Chris Dreyer:
TV, certainly 10, 15 years ago, it was very consolidated.Everybody watched it. And now you've got streaming and OTT, and all thesedifferent things. And you may give the example of, "Hey, I've beenwatching you since I was four." Well, now some of the younger generationdon't watch TV, so diminished in value. But do you think today if you got astartup, it's still one of the best ways to distribute your message? Do youstill think that? Or do you think, hey, now it's maybe more digital, maybeoutdoor?
Frank Azar:
Well, that's a really good question, Chris, and I've beenthinking about it since we've talked about it. And I think it's a combinationof things that are basically driving business now, but what kind of business isit really driving? What kind of cases are you really getting, and what can youdo with those cases? Sure, one of these guys is going to sneak out a big casehere and there and settle it for peanuts. And think they did a great job, andhave enough money to go in there and buy more keywords or throw their name onradio, or do a couple TV ads. But really, how much does it cost to competeoverall on all these platforms? It's getting super-duper expensive. Reallysuper-duper expensive. And if you don't have...
Remember I was telling you, I've seen guys go under with3,000 cases in their office. They've sat here and spent a lot of money onmarketing, paying this money out, and realizing, oh, guess what? I'm not goingto get it back for a year or two years. But let's say you do get the cases.This one kid that used to work for me, and I'm helping him out, helping himdevelop his practice and stuff. And he said, "You know what, Frank? Thisis so much harder than I thought it would be. You got to have the logistics,you got to have the secretaries, you got to have this, you got to have that.You got to have the money to put into these cases for these doctors, and stufflike that." And he says, "I have newfound respect for you." Andhe said, "I'm sorry I was ever critical of you." It's a wholedifferent thing.
So getting the cases is not the problem. It's what you dowith them when you get them, and what kind of money do you get out of them? Areyou in this for two years or three years? Because I write off $3 million a yearin attorney's fees on cases where people have catastrophic injuries and there'sminimal amounts of insurance. I do that every year. You can't do that for thenext 20 years and still make a living, can you? Most of these guys can't.They're going to take a fee out of that case where somebody's got four or500,000 in medical bills and a $25,000 policy. Guarantee you they're going todo it every time. Where does that get you with these people?
Like the other day I had a little boy whose dad waskilled, and we just gave him the whole fee. We didn't even take any. Zero. Andmy lawyer says to me, he says, "Frank, his dad got killed and there's notmuch insurance." I said, "Give it to him." Now, that kid's goingto remember that for the rest of his life. Those kinds of things I can do. Therest of these guys can't do that.
Chris Dreyer:
Right.
Frank Azar:
I can be the Robin Hood, or whatever per se. I can sithere and do all public service stuff that these guys will never be able to do,until they get up there. But to get one of these law firms going anywhere whereit works over time, you're not sitting there dibbling around with 10 or 20cases, or even getting 10 or 20 cases.
Okay, let me just point this out. Here's one of mycompetitors, doesn't file suit, right? I explained to you what happened withthat insurance company when they didn't pay us. We were getting paid four andfive times what my competitor was getting paid on the very same cases. So oneof my cases is equal to five of their cases. I don't have to bring in as manycases, and I can be very selective about what cases I do take, and that givesme a big advantage.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. And it keeps your overall numbers higher too becauseyou're more selective as opposed to taking the small cases and then the overallaverage blends down. So then that's, the insurance company looks you up they'relike, "Oh, shit. His average is a lot higher than the norm."
Frank Azar:
Yeah, purposely we don't take those smaller cases becauseit brings down our average settlement. And two is, we are always planning ontrying a case. Is it a case that we can try, and can we get the maximum dollarsout of it? And how can we litigate it and make sure we get the client the moneythat we're supposed to be getting, versus cutting and running?
Chris Dreyer:
Because you guys get these numbers and you have theinfrastructure to get these big cases, have you thought about advertising B@B?I know we joke about some of the conferences, right? But have you thought aboutyour trial... And maybe you do, I don't have any idea. Your trial attorneysgoing and speaking at these different conferences and networking things to getreferrals, or would you just rather originate your own case and not have to paythe 33 or 50% kickback?
Frank Azar:
We do very little referral work. Very little. And usuallywe won't take a case here if some other lawyers already had it. Because we findout the other lawyer has goofed it up and we can't fix it. And I don't want tobe sitting here with a malpractice problem. Nine out of 10 times these otherlawyers had goofed something up and I don't want to be sitting there trying tofix it, number one. And number two is, by then the insurance company set thereserves on that.
For instance, I had this case we got in the other... Itwas a kid I know, and way out of his league. It was a big case, million dollarpolicy. The guy had 60,000 in meds and he was supposed to have a surgery orsomething, a couple surgeries. So he sends in a policy limit demand for amillion dollars. The insurance company's laughing. They responded with a crappyresponse and said, "Hey, show us these surgery records." The guydidn't have the surgery, he hadn't had any surgeries. And there's no life careplan, there's no economics, there's no nothing. They're just not going to handyou over a million dollar policy, you got to work. And especially if it's atrucking company, they are not going to pay you until you get in there andyou're litigating and you got them going to trial. They're not going to pay amillion dollars. What did he do? The first words out of the client's mouth whenhe calls us, says, "Can I sue this guy for malpractice?" First wordsout of his mouth.
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal.
Frank Azar:
And the guy had screwed it all up. So here he is sendingin a demand way too early where they're setting their reserves. Once they setthose reserves, they don't like to go back in there and change them from 40 or50,000 to a million. The insurance comings don't like that. And the client knewit too. The client knew that this was too premature and he was very concerned.And I said, "Well, it's too early to see whether he malpracticed or not.You can't get more than you would've gotten on the policy limits in this case.So let's see how hurt you are. You haven't had any of these surgeries."The first thing on this guy's mind is, "I want to sue this guy."
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. That's wild. Let me ask you a couplefinal questions, Frank, because this has been really fun speaking with you. Ithink Morgan wrote a book. It was like, You Can't Teach Hungry. You're eitherthe lion or the sloth, and you're going to go out and conquer. And every yearyou guys are doing more billboards, more expansion, training up new trialattorneys.
Frank Azar:
Everything John Morgan does.
Chris Dreyer:
Is it passing-
Frank Azar:
Jim Adler and everybody else. There's not an originalthought in my head, let's put it that way.
Chris Dreyer:
No, I disagree with that wholeheartedly. But are youpassing... He said, "Hey, I'm with my siblings are lawyers and my dadwas." Is it now pass the torch? And I know I've met Margo. Is it, hey, Iwant to set up this... Is that what you're doing to continue to just push andbuild, or do you enjoy the game still?
Frank Azar:
You know what, I really enjoy practicing law. And I thinkthe worst thing that probably happened to me in my career was when COVID hit.And I have an immune problem and I couldn't come in, and my doctors wouldn'tlet me come out of the house. And I didn't get to come into the office or seemy lawyers except for Zoom for six months. And I didn't get to meet with any ofmy clients or anything. And I got very depressed. It was the worst time of mylife not having these people that I interact with. I like the clients. I likedtrying to fix their problems. We have some hellacious catastrophic injurieshere. You start crying when you work on some of these cases, they're so bad. Ilike it. I like helping people because it really is one of the things in my lifethat really makes me happy, and I like doing a good job.
And from when I first started working, when I just got outof law school to now, I've always been a plaintiff attorney. I didn't careabout the money, I cared about doing a good job for people. And I saw how therest of these attorneys treated people, taking their cases and churning andburning them. And turning around and just getting whatever they could out ofit, and not caring about the client or the end result. These guys, back in thedays, they'd sit there and take a $50,000 case and the chiropractor get halfand the lawyer would get the other half. And I'm not kidding you, they gavethis one lady $600. She was a little upset, and turned around and sued them.How do you explain to a jury, out of a $50,000 settlement the client gets $600.I swore to myself I'd never do that to anybody in a million... If I had to takeno fee.
You know what I mean? That was just ridiculous. And ofcourse those guys aren't around anymore, are they? One of my big competitors,who you know, I was sitting there talking to one of the big downtown plaintiffslaw firm when I was down there working with them on a case. I said, "Well,how's it going down here?" They don't advertise. They're one of these oldsilk stocking plaintiff's firms. And I said, "How's it going down here onbid? You still getting a lot of cases?" Because they were into the union'squite a bit. And he says, "We get about four or five calls a week fromyour competitor ex-law firm." I said, "Really?"
He goes, "Yeah, you would be surprised with the callswe get, four or five a week. They've never spoken to their attorney. They don'tknow what's going on in their case, nobody will call them back. And they'recalling us and we're saying, 'Hey, can't help you. You should have called usthe first off.' Because by then the case has gotten screwed up and nobody wantsto deal with it." I said, "Four or five a week?" He goes,"Yeah."
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal.
Frank Azar:
Incredible. That's how unhappy people are with thesepeople. And when you continuously do this to people and you churn and burnthem. With these lawyers, we're all missing. The one thing these people want isa phone call, and tell them what the hell's going on with their case. But theselawyers can't pick up the phone and talk to their clients. We have every singleclient of ours come into the office, whether they like it or not. Because wewant to meet them, we want to see what kind of witnesses they'll make, whatkind of plaintiffs they'll make. So we have a real one-on-one relationship.
Half these people, they never even knew there was anattorney on their case. That's the difference. But I have the luxury, I can doall these things. I can hire all attorneys. I can spend as much time as I wantlitigating these big cases. I can sit out there and wait and wait until theseguys have these insurance companies sitting there offering them less than halfthe meds. On some of these cases, and then these guys that are in with thesechiropractors, God help them because the chiropractors want all their fees.They want their money paid back. How are you going to get that? You don't got afiduciary duty, you have a duty of loyalty to your client, not to thechiropractor that's sending you business.
Chris Dreyer:
I agree. I agree. Frank, this has been amazing. Finalquestion for our audience that wanted to connect with you has a follow-upquestion or wants to learn more, where can they go to connect with you?
Frank Azar:
Yeah, just call my office. Talk to my secretary, Joey.It's (303) 757-3300. I'd be more than happy to give anybody advice on thisbusiness. If you do it right, it can be lucrative, it can be profitable. Butit's not one year, two year play, let's see how many cases I can get in hereand churn and burn. Because every one of those people that walks out of youroffice unhappy, is somebody that's going to dis you to somebody else. And overtime, you're not going to have a following. That's the king that counts.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Frank for an amazing conversation. Let'shit the takeaways. Brand building is your secret weapon. Take a page from FrankAzar's playbook and invest in long-term multichannel brand building. Whiledigital marketing is great for quick wins, nothing beats the staying power ofTV and billboard advertising to create lasting brand recognition. Start smallwith a targeted digital campaign, then scale up the traditional media as yourbudget grows. Remember, consistency is key. Keep hammering home your messageand watch as your brand awareness snowballs, driving down acquisition costs andboosting referrals over time.
Frank Azar:
And one of the assistants there in the camera room came upto me, and she says, "Can I have your autograph and get a picture withyou?" I said, "Oh, sure. Why?" She says, "I've beenwatching you since I was four years old." I don't care how much money youspend on SEO or TikTok or whatever, you can't beat that. You cannot beat that.
Chris Dreyer:
Show up and throw down. Insurance companies are watchingyour every move, so build a reputation as a fierce trial attorney unafraid togo to distance. Back it up with real courtroom wins and watch as yoursettlement offers start to climb. Invest in top-notch trial advocacy, trainingyour team, and shout your successes from the rooftops. When insurers know youmean business, they'll come to the table with serious offers.
Frank Azar:
And they're not making any decent offers until maybe 30days before trial. We had one where they didn't offer until a week beforetrial. The rest of these guys, they don't even file suit. How State Farm isoffering below half the meds. And they're sitting there saying, "Fileit." And these guys, "Okay, well I'm going to file it." And thenState Farm doesn't offer them anything. Oh, look and behold, you're going tohave to try this case.
Chris Dreyer:
Standing still is moving backward. Channel Frank Azar'sadaptability by staying on the top of industry trends and being ready to pivotwhen the opportunity knocks. Whether it's embracing cutting edge tech orrevolutionizing your client experience, always be on the lookout for your nextcompetitive edge. Foster a culture of innovation in your firm. And remember,the most successful attorneys aren't just practicing law, they're shaping itsfuture.
Huge thank you to Frank for coming on the show. For moreinformation about Frank, check out the show notes. Before you go, do me a solidand smash that follow button to subscribe. I sincerely appreciate it. And youwon't want to miss out on the next episode of Personal Injury Mastermind withme, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. All right everybody, thanksfor hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
