Frank Azar:
The problem is not getting the cases; it's what you do with them when you get them. And what kind of money do you make out of them?
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the legal marketing company the best firms hire when they want the rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. On this show, I've been fortunate enough to learn from some of the best minds in the personal injury space, and now we're bringing them together in one place for the first ever PIM Conference. PIMCon is coming to Scottsdale this September. We're laser-focused on one thing, getting more leads. I'm not talking about just any leads, but quality leads that actually turn into cases. That's it. That's our entire focus. It's not just theory, we're talking about actionable strategies that have been tried and tested by some of the best in the business. If you're looking to conquer personal injury marketing and go from good to goat, PIMCon is where you need to be. We gather the top PI marketing experts to share their secrets, and believe me, this is cutting-edge stuff you won't find anywhere else. Don't miss out on another potential client, grab your ticket to PIMCon now and get ready to supercharge your practice. Your future self will thank you. Go to pimcon.org. All right, let's dive in.
We're joined today by a true titan of the personal injury world, Frank Azar, founder of Franklin D. Azar & Associates, the largest personal injury law firm in Colorado. Frank isn't just another successful attorney, he's the man behind an $11.5 million verdict against a major football helmet manufacturer, a key player in the multi-state class action against Walmart that resulted in over $750 million in settlements, and The Strong Arm on television screens across Colorado. With 30-plus attorneys, more than 14 office locations, and a practice founded in 1987, Frank has weathered every storm and trend of the personal injury landscape. He's mastered the art of building a powerful brand while keeping a commitment to client care. In this episode, Frank shares his unfiltered insights on everything from effective marketing strategies to the power of litigation expertise. Here's Frank Azar, The Strong Arm.
Frank Azar:
My dad was a lawyer, so I didn't have much of a chance. Actually, my brother and my sister are also lawyers. And I always wanted to be a lawyer, because I found out in eighth grade you didn't have to be that good at math to be a lawyer, so I thought that's what I would be.
Chris Dreyer:
That's awesome. That's amazing. So you got the family pressure too there with the lawyers.
Frank Azar:
My dad went to Harvard Law School on a scholarship, he was so smart. My brother and I, and we're looking his notebooks from Harvard Law School, and I go, "Oh, my God." And I said, "Did your notebooks look like that in law school?" I go, "No." I go, "Did yours?" He goes, "No way." Unbelievable work. My brother always says, "Who's the best lawyer of them all, mirror, mirror on the wall?" And he asked me that question for many years. I said, "Is it the richest one of all?" He goes, "You got it. Now you know your practice of law."
Chris Dreyer:
That's good.
Frank Azar:
Unfortunately, that's been the driving force in our business, is how much money can you make? And I think we've lost sight of the plaintiffs. It's just gotten ridiculous. And one of the things I was thinking about on this podcast is this Google SEO. This thing has basically created a bunch of lawyers that are mediocre, not probably competent to sit there. And people have no idea who they are, what their track record is, and a lot of these people in Colorado aren't even from Colorado. And these people are picking them off the internet and just going to their website. Which I think, in the old days, people went with somebody that had a reputation that they knew, like me, who've been on TV for 40 years. But now, there's no way to see how much better any other lawyer is than the other lawyer. They have these companies that run around giving the awards, the Best Super Lawyer of the Year Award. What the hell does all that crap mean? Really, seriously?
Chris Dreyer:
The litigating firm has the client, the plaintiff's interest, because you're getting maximum value. You're helping them, you're not just taking the settlement check because you have some cashflow issues. Do you think that in this environment where it's more competitive now that the litigating firms are actually getting stronger, or do you think that the settlement firms still have a model of churn and burn? What do you think?
Frank Azar:
This is what I think is happening, the lead is being taken by State Farm. And as I told you the other day, I said, "State Farm, they used to..." Most insurance companies with my competitors play the game of chicken. Are they going to file suit or not? 95% of them aren't going to even file suit. State Farm has taken it a step further, and now they're sitting and they're saying, "Are you going to try the case?" And they're not making any decent offers until maybe 30 days before trial. We had one where they didn't offer until a week before trial. The rest of these guys, they don't even file suit. State Farm is offering below half the meds, and they're sitting there saying, "File it." And these guys, "Okay, well I'm going to file it." And then State Farm doesn't offer them anything.
Oh, look and behold, you're going to have to try this case, Mr. Attorney that says they're so great on their internet advertising. Guess what? They've never tried a case. They've never filed a case. And this is what I saw in 1994. State Farm and Allstate decided they weren't going to pay on these soft tissue cases anymore, they were going to get real tough on low-impact. And they did, they stopped paying on them. They used to pay three times the meds, and everybody went along their jolly way. That's not happening anymore. Lawyers are a dime a dozen. They can hire them out of law school to come in there and work in these in-house law firms, and sit there and basically work for nothing. And have these huge caseloads, 350 caseloads in these in-house insurance company law firms. And guess what? They don't care how overworked these people are. They don't care how many cases they got to go to trial.
We had one of the persons from... I'm not going to mention the insurance company. We went down for a pretrial conference. He had three cases set at the same time our case was going to trial, and then he told the judge, "I'm going on vacation for two weeks." The judge started screaming at him, and the guy says, "Just a minute, let me go back and talk to the adjuster," and got more money on it. But this law firm is one of the major law firms for one of the bigger companies, and every time they're triple-set. At a minimum, these guys are going in there and trying these cases.
Chris Dreyer:
It's turning everything into a commodity, which is a race-to-the-bottom scenario. That's where tech comes into play and AI and nearshoring, because you don't need the skilled labor. Not to say there isn't talent internationally, I'm just saying you just don't need as much of it, and you don't need the control.
Frank Azar:
It depends what you're talking about, mass torts for PI or other avenues.
Chris Dreyer:
Well, I know how you feel about mass torts, so I won't go that route. Let me take you back to the litigating. You're an advertising litigating firm, which is not common. Most of the pre-lit and the settlement firms, they can handle volume because they're not going to trial, it's just on the assembly line. There's just so much complexity to advertising on TV and digital and everything you're doing on billboards. What does the model look, it's just higher case selection criteria? Is that what it is?
Frank Azar:
I think it's changed a lot, and now that these insurance companies are going to the mattresses, a phrase out of The Godfather, I think you've got to be able to have people. And first of all, they can push a button at these insurance companies on their computer, and they can tell you everything about a lawyer. Does this guy file suit? Does he try cases? More importantly, does he win cases? And you know what, if you don't meet these criteria, they're going to sit there and offer you garbage. And they're going to know who you are, and after a while, you're going to have a track record of sitting there settling. And they're going to know that you're a settler.
And for instance, I was talking to an adjuster that worked for one of the major insurance companies the other day, and he told me... I was asking him about one of my competitors, he's down in southern Colorado, and this guy had been working down there for six years for a major insurance company. And I said, "How many cases did so-and-so file in the six years you've been working down there?" He goes, "Zero." I go, "Zero cases?" He goes, "Yeah, they sit here and call up and threaten us 14 times. But we know they're never going to file suit, so we just laugh, and eventually they end up taking it and forcing some crappy settlement down some client's throat that doesn't know better."
And that's what each and every one of these guys pretty much does when it comes down to doing this work, and they haven't caught on. For instance, there's one insurance company that we found out they had put 250 of our cases with the same two adjusters. And these adjusters would just stick to the meds, and once we filed suit, they'd sit there and pay us. They'd send it to another adjuster. And I said, "You're sitting there running my guys through the wring." They wouldn't give us the policy limits. So, I just took 150 cases one week and filed them all. Caused a meltdown.
They were paying us on cases where there was $5,000 in meds and paying us the policy limits of $100,000. They couldn't handle it. And they started paying us... We got paid on cases we never should have gotten paid on. "Stop, stop, Frank, let's sit here and talk about this." I said, "You want us to file suit? We're going to go in there, and some of these cases are going to get tried, and you're going to have excess liability, $4 or $5 million cases." I said, "I'm going to pull the rug out on you. You go explain to your insured how you have this program of not paying plaintiff's attorneys until they file suit. Go explain it to your insured."
Chris Dreyer:
That's how you get the big cases, and that's how you get the value. And also, that's also the margins. When you're commoditized, there's no profit margins to take, because there's no value there.
Frank Azar:
I always like to tell this story. I had this kid that was working for me, this is 15, 20 years ago. And he was a really bright guy, very bright. He had worked as an insurance adjuster before he came to work for us, and then he went to law school. After he passed the bar, he came to work for us. And this guy knew more about how to push the buttons on an insurance company than anybody that I'd ever met. He was smart, and he knew how insurance companies worked. And one of his friends inherited a lot of money. A lot. And they decided they were going to go out and be Frank Azar. And he went out there, and they advertised, and they spent a lot of money in advertising. A couple things happened. Number one, is he didn't really get a lot of cases, but he got a really big case, the multimillion-dollar case. And they wouldn't settle it with him. They had a really serious liability on it, and the damages were huge.
He says, "They won't settle. Will you come in here and help me and litigate this case?" I showed up at the mediation, and they turned around and settled it with us. And I went to the mediator. I said, "How come they wouldn't settle with this kid? It's no different than when I came in later." He says, "Frank," he says, "they know this kid doesn't have the money to put into this case. It's going to cost a lot of money. And two, he's never tried a case this big." And he doesn't have... They wouldn't even make him an offer. So, that's what happens, is you don't have the cred, credibility, as I call it with these guys, they know it. And if you think that they think you're some great trial lawyer and they're going to pay, you're not going to get the maximum dollars on these cases. And even if you sit here and file suit, you got to be able to try them and win.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. And you guys have incredible verdicts, incredible results.
Frank Azar:
We've got the best results of anybody in this state, and it's just... People don't understand it. And that's why when these guys sit there and hire a lawyer off the internet, there's no track record. How many cases has the guy tried? How many cases has he filed? And you'll find out most of these guys have never even tried a case.
Chris Dreyer:
Let me ask you this. A lot of litigating firms, maybe the owner or the partner of the firm is a litigator. And it's small, maybe they specialize in TBI or birth or whatever. And most of them get their cases through referral. What made you take the decision many years back to go heavy into TV and to originate your own cases as opposed to just doing the referral off reputation? What was that moment? Did you just see the writing on the wall, "Hey, I got to build a brand."?
Frank Azar:
We had Norton Frickey here in Denver for years. He was one of the first people that started advertising in 1978 after the Bates decision. Him, and the other law firm was Sarney, Trattler & Waitkus. And I saw how successful they were. The problem with them is, with those kinds of firms at that point in time, was they didn't have the lawyers doing the work. And therefore, they were just running freaky hat at that point in time, maybe four or five lawyers. You take a look at Morris Bart in New Orleans, and take a look at his model. And I hate to say I copy everything he does, but I do.
And he had a small number of lawyers, now he's got 150 lawyers. And you're getting more on the cases with lawyers, and you're getting more money. They're able to litigate them, you're able to try them, you're able to develop people in your firm that can try these cases and win them. And I think that's one of the things that Morgan & Morgan have done a great job of, is getting some of their well more experienced lawyers training their younger lawyers so they can go in there and try these cases. That's a long evolved process of bringing up these guys and teaching them how to try these cases. It's a lost art, and Morgan & Morgan has done a good job at doing that. They file suit on every case. They go in there and they try a lot of cases. Therefore, they get top dollar.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, and I see that. I agree with you. And Morris, they run good practices. One of the things too, you're talking about big brands, and I think Tennessee just did a study where you were number two or number three on the list. Frank Azar, right there. Now you got this different scenario where you got everybody bidding on your name. How do you tackle that versus the benefit of having the brand? Because clearly Google wants people to bid on your name, because you got to pay for it, right?
Frank Azar:
We've gotten really down to the nitty-gritty on really interrogating these people how they got to us. And I saw this when I first started practicing law, because I saw the law firms that existed back then in Colorado. They were these churner burners, and they'd sit there and get in bed with the chiropractors and run up a big bill, and then chiropractor would send them cases and they'd send cases back to the chiropractor. And that whole game. And in the end they were burning people so bad that they didn't get any return clients. So I said, at that point in time when I started advertising, I said, "I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to sit there and churn and burn." I'm going to sit there and get these people as much money as I can. If a case doesn't work out, I'm going to write it off.
I'm not going to try to get the costs, I'm not going to slap liens. I'm not going to do any of this stuff. And consequently, because of that, most of the cases I get are somebody's friend or relative that were presented, or one of their friends. It used to be about 40, 50% of my practice, now it's about 80.
Chris Dreyer:
Wow.
Frank Azar:
It used to be, in the old days, people would see me on TV and they'd call right away. That's not how it works anymore. Every time somebody's calling us, it's because they know my name. It's a branding thing. They may go look for me on Google where these guys are buying my name and accidentally may call one of these guys. They are sitting there hoping that somebody confuses them with you and they get the case. Halfway through, a lot of these people realize it's not Frank Azar and they fire the guys.
Chris Dreyer:
There's several of the legion companies doing that too. Let me ask you, so I had recently... And just your opinion, I had Angel Reyes from Dallas on the pod. And he for, I don't know the period of time, but let's say 10 plus years spending real dollars on TV. And he made a decision about six years ago, he cut TV all together and he's just jamming Google Ads, SEO. Complete, just all in digital. And he made a comment and he said he thinks brand doesn't matter. And I think you're the whole or opposite, I think you're saying brand is everything. I don't know, just any thoughts on-
Frank Azar:
I don't mean to be critical of Angel, but Angel's gone in a lot of different directions. And he wasn't a lawn car or an Adler, or any of those guys down there in Dallas. And he didn't stick to TV, and he did get a name. And it doesn't work unless you stick with it and get a name and name recognition and you're there day in and day out so people get to know you.
Chris Dreyer:
So you think that the brand equity has to compound over years to be that just top of mind? In St. Louis, when I go into St. Louis, I think Brown & Crouppen a lot of times. I know a lot of firms ruining legal and Schultz Myers. I've seen their billboards for my whole life.
Frank Azar:
I have so many that'll tell me. I was down in Colorado Springs the other day and we were shooting a public service ad for one of the TV stations, and one of the assistants there in the camera room came up to me, she says, "Can I have your autograph and get a picture with you?" I said, "Oh, sure. Why?" She says, "I've been watching you since I was four years old." I don't care how much money you spend on SEO or TikTok or whatever, you can't beat that. You cannot beat that.
Chris Dreyer:
I agree. I'll say this too, my wife when we're driving, she'll say, "Oh, they must be legit, they're on TV or billboards too." So there's also some of that social proof. Now we know the truth that many of the advertisers are not legit, not litigating firms. I think the perception from the consumer is that they are.
Frank Azar:
And that's a point. I was talking to another person that's in our business, and I made that point. I said, "Now, any guy can sit there and get a case through any of these various, what I call nefarious means, TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or whatever. They're not going to generate the number of cases that TV advertising generated. Ever. Ever." SEO might. Over time, it's a question of whether it's going to continue to do that or not. But as Google's algorithms figure out what's really going on, there's going to be some problems. But I think at this point, at this juncture, the public is not getting an idea who they're getting as a lawyer. And once they find out this isn't working for them, they're just going to go back to the people that have the brand names. And even though...
My competitors, their whole deal is we don't have any lawyers. We don't care about having any lawyers. We're going to sit here and settle your case and just lure you in on TV. And people just don't know what they're getting when they're doing that. And I feel bad for them. But in the same sense, I'd rather see somebody go to one of my competitors where there's theoretically a warrior at one of these places that'll figure out they've got a great case and do something with it. Whereas, one of these kids coming out of law school and getting on TikTok and getting a couple cases, that guy is an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion.
Chris Dreyer:
TV, certainly 10, 15 years ago, it was very consolidated. Everybody watched it. And now you've got streaming and OTT, and all these different things. And you may give the example of, "Hey, I've been watching you since I was four." Well, now some of the younger generation don't watch TV, so diminished in value. But do you think today if you got a startup, it's still one of the best ways to distribute your message? Do you still think that? Or do you think, hey, now it's maybe more digital, maybe outdoor?
Frank Azar:
Well, that's a really good question, Chris, and I've been thinking about it since we've talked about it. And I think it's a combination of things that are basically driving business now, but what kind of business is it really driving? What kind of cases are you really getting, and what can you do with those cases? Sure, one of these guys is going to sneak out a big case here and there and settle it for peanuts. And think they did a great job, and have enough money to go in there and buy more keywords or throw their name on radio, or do a couple TV ads. But really, how much does it cost to compete overall on all these platforms? It's getting super-duper expensive. Really super-duper expensive. And if you don't have...
Remember I was telling you, I've seen guys go under with 3,000 cases in their office. They've sat here and spent a lot of money on marketing, paying this money out, and realizing, oh, guess what? I'm not going to get it back for a year or two years. But let's say you do get the cases. This one kid that used to work for me, and I'm helping him out, helping him develop his practice and stuff. And he said, "You know what, Frank? This is so much harder than I thought it would be. You got to have the logistics, you got to have the secretaries, you got to have this, you got to have that. You got to have the money to put into these cases for these doctors, and stuff like that." And he says, "I have newfound respect for you." And he said, "I'm sorry I was ever critical of you." It's a whole different thing.
So getting the cases is not the problem. It's what you do with them when you get them, and what kind of money do you get out of them? Are you in this for two years or three years? Because I write off $3 million a year in attorney's fees on cases where people have catastrophic injuries and there's minimal amounts of insurance. I do that every year. You can't do that for the next 20 years and still make a living, can you? Most of these guys can't. They're going to take a fee out of that case where somebody's got four or 500,000 in medical bills and a $25,000 policy. Guarantee you they're going to do it every time. Where does that get you with these people?
Like the other day I had a little boy whose dad was killed, and we just gave him the whole fee. We didn't even take any. Zero. And my lawyer says to me, he says, "Frank, his dad got killed and there's not much insurance." I said, "Give it to him." Now, that kid's going to remember that for the rest of his life. Those kinds of things I can do. The rest of these guys can't do that.
Chris Dreyer:
Right.
Frank Azar:
I can be the Robin Hood, or whatever per se. I can sit here and do all public service stuff that these guys will never be able to do, until they get up there. But to get one of these law firms going anywhere where it works over time, you're not sitting there dibbling around with 10 or 20 cases, or even getting 10 or 20 cases.
Okay, let me just point this out. Here's one of my competitors, doesn't file suit, right? I explained to you what happened with that insurance company when they didn't pay us. We were getting paid four and five times what my competitor was getting paid on the very same cases. So one of my cases is equal to five of their cases. I don't have to bring in as many cases, and I can be very selective about what cases I do take, and that gives me a big advantage.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. And it keeps your overall numbers higher too because you're more selective as opposed to taking the small cases and then the overall average blends down. So then that's, the insurance company looks you up they're like, "Oh, shit. His average is a lot higher than the norm."
Frank Azar:
Yeah, purposely we don't take those smaller cases because it brings down our average settlement. And two is, we are always planning on trying a case. Is it a case that we can try, and can we get the maximum dollars out of it? And how can we litigate it and make sure we get the client the money that we're supposed to be getting, versus cutting and running?
Chris Dreyer:
Because you guys get these numbers and you have the infrastructure to get these big cases, have you thought about advertising B2B? I know we joke about some of the conferences, right? But have you thought about your trial... And maybe you do, I don't have any idea. Your trial attorneys going and speaking at these different conferences and networking things to get referrals, or would you just rather originate your own case and not have to pay the 33 or 50% kickback?
Frank Azar:
We do very little referral work. Very little. And usually we won't take a case here if some other lawyers already had it. Because we find out the other lawyer has goofed it up and we can't fix it. And I don't want to be sitting here with a malpractice problem. Nine out of 10 times these other lawyers had goofed something up and I don't want to be sitting there trying to fix it, number one. And number two is, by then the insurance company set the reserves on that.
For instance, I had this case we got in the other... It was a kid I know, and way out of his league. It was a big case, million dollar policy. The guy had 60,000 in meds and he was supposed to have a surgery or something, a couple surgeries. So he sends in a policy limit demand for a million dollars. The insurance company's laughing. They responded with a crappy response and said, "Hey, show us these surgery records." The guy didn't have the surgery, he hadn't had any surgeries. And there's no life care plan, there's no economics, there's no nothing. They're just not going to hand you over a million dollar policy, you got to work. And especially if it's a trucking company, they are not going to pay you until you get in there and you're litigating and you got them going to trial. They're not going to pay a million dollars. What did he do? The first words out of the client's mouth when he calls us, says, "Can I sue this guy for malpractice?" First words out of his mouth.
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal.
Frank Azar:
And the guy had screwed it all up. So here he is sending in a demand way too early where they're setting their reserves. Once they set those reserves, they don't like to go back in there and change them from 40 or 50,000 to a million. The insurance comings don't like that. And the client knew it too. The client knew that this was too premature and he was very concerned. And I said, "Well, it's too early to see whether he malpracticed or not. You can't get more than you would've gotten on the policy limits in this case. So let's see how hurt you are. You haven't had any of these surgeries." The first thing on this guy's mind is, "I want to sue this guy."
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. That's wild. Let me ask you a couple final questions, Frank, because this has been really fun speaking with you. I think Morgan wrote a book. It was like, You Can't Teach Hungry. You're either the lion or the sloth, and you're going to go out and conquer. And every year you guys are doing more billboards, more expansion, training up new trial attorneys.
Frank Azar:
Everything John Morgan does.
Chris Dreyer:
Is it passing-
Frank Azar:
Jim Adler and everybody else. There's not an original thought in my head, let's put it that way.
Chris Dreyer:
No, I disagree with that wholeheartedly. But are you passing... He said, "Hey, I'm with my siblings are lawyers and my dad was." Is it now pass the torch? And I know I've met Margo. Is it, hey, I want to set up this... Is that what you're doing to continue to just push and build, or do you enjoy the game still?
Frank Azar:
You know what, I really enjoy practicing law. And I think the worst thing that probably happened to me in my career was when COVID hit. And I have an immune problem and I couldn't come in, and my doctors wouldn't let me come out of the house. And I didn't get to come into the office or see my lawyers except for Zoom for six months. And I didn't get to meet with any of my clients or anything. And I got very depressed. It was the worst time of my life not having these people that I interact with. I like the clients. I liked trying to fix their problems. We have some hellacious catastrophic injuries here. You start crying when you work on some of these cases, they're so bad. I like it. I like helping people because it really is one of the things in my life that really makes me happy, and I like doing a good job.
And from when I first started working, when I just got out of law school to now, I've always been a plaintiff attorney. I didn't care about the money, I cared about doing a good job for people. And I saw how the rest of these attorneys treated people, taking their cases and churning and burning them. And turning around and just getting whatever they could out of it, and not caring about the client or the end result. These guys, back in the days, they'd sit there and take a $50,000 case and the chiropractor get half and the lawyer would get the other half. And I'm not kidding you, they gave this one lady $600. She was a little upset, and turned around and sued them. How do you explain to a jury, out of a $50,000 settlement the client gets $600. I swore to myself I'd never do that to anybody in a million... If I had to take no fee.
You know what I mean? That was just ridiculous. And of course those guys aren't around anymore, are they? One of my big competitors, who you know, I was sitting there talking to one of the big downtown plaintiffs law firm when I was down there working with them on a case. I said, "Well, how's it going down here?" They don't advertise. They're one of these old silk stocking plaintiff's firms. And I said, "How's it going down here on bid? You still getting a lot of cases?" Because they were into the union's quite a bit. And he says, "We get about four or five calls a week from your competitor ex-law firm." I said, "Really?"
He goes, "Yeah, you would be surprised with the calls we get, four or five a week. They've never spoken to their attorney. They don't know what's going on in their case, nobody will call them back. And they're calling us and we're saying, 'Hey, can't help you. You should have called us the first off.' Because by then the case has gotten screwed up and nobody wants to deal with it." I said, "Four or five a week?" He goes, "Yeah."
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal.
Frank Azar:
Incredible. That's how unhappy people are with these people. And when you continuously do this to people and you churn and burn them. With these lawyers, we're all missing. The one thing these people want is a phone call, and tell them what the hell's going on with their case. But these lawyers can't pick up the phone and talk to their clients. We have every single client of ours come into the office, whether they like it or not. Because we want to meet them, we want to see what kind of witnesses they'll make, what kind of plaintiffs they'll make. So we have a real one-on-one relationship.
Half these people, they never even knew there was an attorney on their case. That's the difference. But I have the luxury, I can do all these things. I can hire all attorneys. I can spend as much time as I want litigating these big cases. I can sit out there and wait and wait until these guys have these insurance companies sitting there offering them less than half the meds. On some of these cases, and then these guys that are in with these chiropractors, God help them because the chiropractors want all their fees. They want their money paid back. How are you going to get that? You don't got a fiduciary duty, you have a duty of loyalty to your client, not to the chiropractor that's sending you business.
Chris Dreyer:
I agree. I agree. Frank, this has been amazing. Final question for our audience that wanted to connect with you has a follow-up question or wants to learn more, where can they go to connect with you?
Frank Azar:
Yeah, just call my office. Talk to my secretary, Joey. It's (303) 757-3300. I'd be more than happy to give anybody advice on this business. If you do it right, it can be lucrative, it can be profitable. But it's not one year, two year play, let's see how many cases I can get in here and churn and burn. Because every one of those people that walks out of your office unhappy, is somebody that's going to dis you to somebody else. And over time, you're not going to have a following. That's the king that counts.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Frank for an amazing conversation. Let's hit the takeaways. Brand building is your secret weapon. Take a page from Frank Azar's playbook and invest in long-term multichannel brand building. While digital marketing is great for quick wins, nothing beats the staying power of TV and billboard advertising to create lasting brand recognition. Start small with a targeted digital campaign, then scale up the traditional media as your budget grows. Remember, consistency is key. Keep hammering home your message and watch as your brand awareness snowballs, driving down acquisition costs and boosting referrals over time.
Frank Azar:
And one of the assistants there in the camera room came up to me, and she says, "Can I have your autograph and get a picture with you?" I said, "Oh, sure. Why?" She says, "I've been watching you since I was four years old." I don't care how much money you spend on SEO or TikTok or whatever, you can't beat that. You cannot beat that.
Chris Dreyer:
Show up and throw down. Insurance companies are watching your every move, so build a reputation as a fierce trial attorney unafraid to go to distance. Back it up with real courtroom wins and watch as your settlement offers start to climb. Invest in top-notch trial advocacy, training your team, and shout your successes from the rooftops. When insurers know you mean business, they'll come to the table with serious offers.
Frank Azar:
And they're not making any decent offers until maybe 30 days before trial. We had one where they didn't offer until a week before trial. The rest of these guys, they don't even file suit. How State Farm is offering below half the meds. And they're sitting there saying, "File it." And these guys, "Okay, well I'm going to file it." And then State Farm doesn't offer them anything. Oh, look and behold, you're going to have to try this case.
Chris Dreyer:
Standing still is moving backward. Channel Frank Azar's adaptability by staying on the top of industry trends and being ready to pivot when the opportunity knocks. Whether it's embracing cutting edge tech or revolutionizing your client experience, always be on the lookout for your next competitive edge. Foster a culture of innovation in your firm. And remember, the most successful attorneys aren't just practicing law, they're shaping its future. Huge thank you to Frank for coming on the show. For more information about Frank, check out the show notes. Before you go, do me a solid and smash that follow button to subscribe. I sincerely appreciate it. And you won't want to miss out on the next episode of Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. All right everybody, thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
