Patrick Salvi Sr.:
I honestly believe that they found the right person. They're in the right place. They don't need to do anymore. They found me.
Chris Dreyer:
When your client is deserving of significant financial compensation, try cases the verdict
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Strike fear in the hearts of the insurance companies, the hospitals, your obligation as a malpractice lawyer is to be able to put the plaintiff on an equal footing in order to hold yourself out as a preeminent malpractice lawyer.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the preeminent personal injury marketing agency. Before we get started, if you like what you hear, head on over to Apple or Spotify and pound that five star review button, and if you don't like what you hear, tell me about it in a one star review, I got a big hug for all my haters too. Each week we talk to the best in the legal industry, ready to dominate your market. Let's go. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the riches are in the niches. Patrick Salvi Sr., looked at personal injury and decided to narrow his focus by limiting his practice to med mal, mass torts and catastrophic injury obtained more than $310 multi-million verdicts and settlements totaling over $2 billion. Mr. Salvi has practiced law for over 40 years and it is at the helm of one of the most successful personal injury law firms in Illinois, Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard Trial Lawyers. And he will be the first to tell you that to get results like this, it starts with quality cases and empathy for potential clients. Today he offers insights from four decades in the business. He discusses the importance of overcoming fear in the courtroom, why going to trial is a better way to increase revenue and how empathy will close more clients. Here's Patrick Salvi Sr., managing equity partner at Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard Trial Lawyers on how he got a start.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
My dad was a lawyer, a general practitioner way back in the day. And so I always admired his work and I actually practiced with him for a couple of years out of law school and that really was the genesis of my interest in the law and it was just sort of the culture that I grew up in and sort of as a natural fit for me.
Chris Dreyer:
What a special time that you got to practice with your father. Can you tell me anything that just stands out, maybe a memory or a story about that time?
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Well, I practiced with my sons, two of five sons currently and have since they came out of law school. And I have to say candidly, my experience with my sons is a little bit better than with my dad. Not that it was bad, but we just had kind of a different idea as to where we wanted the direction of my particular practice to be. He was a general practitioner, kind of did everything, real estate, probate, divorce, criminal. I really enjoyed courtroom work and I did criminal law initially just to get into court. The problem with criminal law is by and large, although I admire criminal law practitioners, by and larger clients are criminals and more often than not you lose. Now it's still a very, very important, obviously part of the practice and the system, but I had some personal injury victories and so I needed to go off on my own and limit my practice to personal injury. It's what I had a passion for. And so I did that starting in the beginning, 1982.
Chris Dreyer:
We work with many personal injury attorneys and I've had many on the show and on your website you lead with, "Hey, we're a medical malpractice, PI attorneys." Did you start out in general PI and then found a propensity for med mal?
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
In the early '80s and '90s, the medical malpractice field really took off, and back in the day some of the personal injury practitioners thought that they didn't want to do malpractice work because they thought it would antagonize the medical professionals in their PI cases as treating doctors, et cetera. And I think that was kind of a flawed approach, and so I actively solicited malpractice cases. Also, they were regarded as, and which they are, riskier more expensive, but as all my medical malpractice colleagues know, if you are disciplined in your selection of cases and you learn how to prosecute and try a medical malpractice case, it is a very rewarding area of practice, both personal as well as professionally and financially.
Chris Dreyer:
I'd have to say most people avoid it for that reason, the expert witnesses and all the costs accrued in building up this case. And have you found that these cases impact your cash flow and those being real issues and how have you approached just this area of the law itself in maybe just a look behind the curtain and maybe how you're selecting cases and how you're dealing with the cash flow and things like that? Because you're right, it's not like a pre car accident, rearing collision, you get to settle and the cash flow comes in a little bit quicker from that velocity standpoint.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Yeah, I mean as a medical malpractice practitioner, number one, it evolves over time. Number one, you have to become a very skilled medical malpractice lawyer. It is a special skill that you kind of develop over time. You have a certain God-given talent. It's a lot of hard work, a lot of preparation, and then you learn the tricks of the trade through trial and error. And as I said, both myself and the lawyers that I've hired over the years who are excellent malpractice lawyers, as I've said, you have to be very, very disciplined with regards to the cases that you accept. Malpractice, even the best cases can be fraught with the risk of losing as opposed to a PI case where a FedEx truck runs through a red light and creams the plaintiff, you're not going to lose that case. Just a question of how much. In a malpractice case, as the practitioners will tell you, even the best of cases generally can be defended vigorously and might be liability and causation or just causation if it's just a real slam dunk, which is very much the exception in the rule. And then if you, what you're doing, first of all, you have to have access to good cases, which is hard. It's a very competitive field, but if you've developed success, a reputation, you hustle for cases in the right way and you're selective and then you get the results, not just settlement, but you've got to try these cases, the verdict also in order to strike fear in the hearts of the insurance companies, the hospitals, in order for them to pay you large settlements when your client's deserving of that. So if you do those things and it's easier said than done, then you should be able then to manage the cash flow of the tremendous expense that the cases are. Can't be cheap in regards to them too. You don't spend money willy-nilly, but you have to have excellent experts, you have to have great demonstrative evidence, you have to spend what's necessary in order to win the case because the other side is going to, they have unlimited resources, generally. Your obligation as a malpractice lawyer is to be able to put the plaintiff on an equal footing to the hospital, the insurance companies, for the doctors, et cetera. I think that is an obligation that you have in order to hold yourself out as a preeminent malpractice lawyer. But malpractice represents maybe a half of our practice. We do some mass tort, not like other firms where we have 19 lawyers and we're a little bit more old-fashioned with regards to a single plaintiff or plaintiff and spouse if it's appropriate type cases, but largely catastrophic injury or death.
Chris Dreyer:
Your firm has obtained more than $300 multimillion, verdicts of settlements totaling over $2 billion, so for the personal injury attorneys listening, if you're looking for co-counsel, you want to extend that maximum value and you're talking to a real expert that really knows what he's talking about and kind of want to shift to those talented lawyers. I heard you say it here, I heard you say it in videos I watched. A lot of times when I hear, oh, we have good people. And it's kind of like everyone kind of says that, but you have the proof, you have the results. What goes into finding, nurturing and retaining these top lawyers?
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
When I started out, I started out by myself and then back then it was kind of a big deal to hire an associate or two and it was a big commitment at the time financially and so forth. Like anything else over the years I've gotten better and better with regards to hiring great lawyers and great non-lawyers in terms of staff, but you need to do your homework. I mean, you really need to do your due diligence. So you talk to your colleagues, what's their reputation? Talk to judges they've tried cases with. What are their strengths? Are there any weaknesses? What's their track record? Get to know them well to make sure that you're going to personally connect with them because you want people that are not only they know how to prosecute a case and know how to take a deposition, know how to even prepare and try a case, but they're team players, they're good people, they have integrity, they they're well-liked and respected in the legal community.
Chris Dreyer:
There are many ways to measure the success of a firm. Mr. Salvi says that a key indicator is when you, the owner, no longer needs to be involved in every case.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
The lawyers are really churning out great results, settlements and verdicts, and without maybe any of my involvement in a particular case, that's when you know that you've built a particularly successful firm. If you're of the attitude like it's not going to get done right unless I do it, that's not a good situation because that's a micromanager, that's someone that can't delegate, that does not make for a successful firm. So I've seen so many extremely talented lawyers, but they just have an inability to delegate. Again, they just feel if they don't do it and it's not done exactly the way they want to do it, it's just not done right. And that's flawed thinking and business management, assuming that you are delegating to people that truly know what they're doing and that requires you to over the course of their careers to help develop them and mentor them. And some lawyers, depending upon their talent and experience, need more hands-on care than others. Some need very little of none. And so knock on wood, I'm very fortunate and they have a large group of lawyers that are just very, very talented in their own rights and sometimes I think they're better off if I'm not meddling, putting my 2 cents in, they're just outstanding. They're really, and I'm a little bit biassed, but I think starting with my oldest son who, he's the president of our Illinois Trial Lawyers Association currently and just coming off a $363 million verdict, he's just been outstanding and so is his brother and so are as partners. So I think we have a great team and I like to think we enjoy as good a reputation as anyone in the city and in the state.
Chris Dreyer:
I want to lean into this delegation and growth side of this conversation just a little bit. You've had multiple hats that you've had to wear and you've shed and your role has changed. And here I am wearing an Oakland A's hat and I know you'd love for me to be wearing that Chicago White Sox hat.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
That's right. We'll forgive you though.
Chris Dreyer:
So your role now is managing equity partner. How has that evolved over time? At the beginning you were trying cases, you were wearing multiple hats, and what does your typical day look like where you're having the most impact today?
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Yeah, so I'm more involved with now still trying cases. I tried a case last January with my son Patrick, and it's unusual for me now to take a lot of depositions to be involved in certain cases in terms of my being primarily responsible for prosecuting it, it's more business development, mentoring lawyers, strategizing with regards to cases that are coming to mediation or being prepared for trial. I enjoy the business of law as well as the practice of law. I enjoy strategizing about getting new business, taking care of attorney, referring attorney relationships, the development of business outside having to have lawyers refer us cases. I mean God loved them, I love all my referring lawyers, but you got to pay referring lawyers. Whereas as if you have the benefit of getting the case from a non-lawyer source, it's much more profitable. I'm involved in all those things and still very active though in trial lawyer organization both at the local and the national in order to preserve our practice, a lot of fundraising, et cetera. I'm very active with regards to the Notre Dame Law School. I serve as a chairman of our law school advisory council or board. That's very important endeavor that I have, and I have had that for quite some time. I don't have quite the time to devote to a certain 10 cases or 15 cases like I did not too long ago. I might step in on a trial now, but it would be with sort of a limited function. I might handle certain aspect of the damages. I might do some of the voir dire, may or may not do opening statement, may close or just give closing on damages, things of that nature. So my approach to the preparation of a trial when I was pretty much handling the overwhelming majority of the responsibilities, as good trial lawyers know it requires an obsession and a level of preparation like no other. Yeah, I mean, you have to be by far and away, in my opinion, the most prepared person in the courtroom. And in order to do that, you must live, breathe and eat that case in an obsessive way for however many weeks or months depending on the complexity of the case that are necessary. And then I think one of the most important aspects of a great trial lawyer is not only God-given talents, dogged preparation, then you must ultimately trust your talents and have a significant amount of fearlessness in order to try a case. Too many great lawyers, they're very talented, they prepare very well, but they're just too fearful that everything's not going to go perfectly. They begin to catastrophize, and they end up settling a case they should try and they don't trust their talents. You can't predict everything at trial, it's so much of human factors come into it because the witnesses are human and the jurors, the judge, you can't predict everything, but you have to trust your talents and trust the fact that you're going to be able to deliver that allows you to turn down that large offer knowing that you're going to be able to deliver a better result.
Chris Dreyer:
So much here and the trial work, it's a zero sums game. There's a winner and a loser. And did you develop this competitive side, this mental fortitude? Were you born with it? Were you always competitive? What I found in interviewing individuals, a lot of times they have a background in sports, so they're really interested in sports as opposed to maybe the pre-lit. They don't have the same competitive sides. Sometimes they do, but it seems like trial attorneys are different breed because you're right, there is only a winner or a loser.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that going back to your question about the selection of lawyers, the competitive nature of the lawyer is so important and yeah, yes, I'm very, very competitive. Just about every good trial lawyer, certainly great trial lawyer. And what does that mean, competitive? Someone that's very, very competitive, what are they going to do? They're going to do everything necessary to make sure they win. Everything. Whether it's working 16, 18 hours a day for how many weeks and months it is to get ready, they're going to do what's necessary to win. They just can't stand the thought of losing. And yes, I'm very, very competitive. I think someone that's in sports, that's a very key element. Generally, people that are successful in sports have that competitive nature. I have that competitive nature in terms of sports, I lack the talent, although I love sports and love playing sports. I was Mr. Competitive, so that's a very key component to a great trial lawyer, no doubt.
Chris Dreyer:
Trial is a zero-sum game. Everything is on the line. Before you can win in trial, you got to win clients. To get them signed up, Mr. Salvi shares his wisdom on business development.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Number one, you can spend a lot of money in terms of advertising and in Chicago and in Illinois obviously we have TV advertising, billboard advertising, things of that nature. By and large, not entirely, but Chicago in terms of the top PI firms, kind of our old school, you won't see, I think any of us doing TV commercials and I think social media has to be fully, there has to be a day in, day out involvement in terms of professional, whether that's an achievement, whether it's one of your lawyers giving a seminar or being on a podcast, winning an award of the local LA Bar Association. You must be constantly promoting your lawyers in your law firm. And if it's done on all mediums professionally, eventually that's going to pay dividends. You know do have to have, in my opinion, ultimately the results. Because lawyers, we know who the best lawyers really are. If your relative or your dear friend is God forbid, seriously injured or killed, and you really need to refer them to somebody that you have the highest degree of confidence in, we lawyers know who the really good lawyers are and that's the reputation you want to develop. And so we encourage our lawyers take every opportunity to write, to provide seminars, to get out there, speak, and if they achieve anything in the way of settlements, verdicts, awards, or any sort of similar professional accomplishment, the word has to go out in a professional way into the lay and the legal community at every opportunity. We have in-house public relations people and that's all they do. And so in this case, for example, Marcy will arrange for interact with you or set this podcast up and then do what's necessary to get me prepared and all set and ready to go with it and then while she's working on 15 other things. Because if you have a lot of good cases, it's a very rewarding profession in practice, personally, professionally, and financially. And so as a result, it is very, very competitive and it's just not a lot of people in my opinion. I mean, my competitors are very, very talented lawyers and law firms I have to say. And so you've got to be on your A game 24/7. I think from the business standpoint, one thing my lawyers initially joke about until they realize the importance of it, if we get an inquiry, they'll tell you, Mr. Salvi, the first thing he's going to ask you, what's he going to ask you? Is he going to say, "Well, tell me about the case. What are the strengths and weaknesses? Tell me about the plaintiff. Where's the venue? How much coverage is there?"All of those are going to come, but the first thing Mr. Salvi's going to ask is, "Did you sign up the case? What are you doing to sign up the case?" Always following all the rules of ethics, et cetera. In my business, it's very, very common almost on a daily basis where we are competing usually against pretty much the same three to five law firms for cases we don't dilly-dally with regards to calling people back, setting up meetings, doing what's necessary in a professional fashion to persuade the client. We would never say or do anything that disparaged in any way, shape or form our competition. In fact, I will almost always say, "Well, you're talking to law firm A, B, and C, they're all excellent." I have to say. This is what I think distinguishes us from them and it means no disrespect to them and then just making it easy for them and so that they think, okay, I'm very, very comfortable with Mr. Salvi and his firm. I think I'm in the right place. I'm going to go with them. And then as I tell my lawyers, we have to deliver on the promise. We didn't make these promises just to get the case signed up and then coast into victory. The top, top plaintiff's trial firms have an obligation to produce extraordinary results and could be produced by even the reasonably well qualified plaintiff's personal injury lawyer or law firm. We should be able to produce a result that might be 50%, a 100%, three times, five times or more than might be produced by a reasonably competent plaintiff's lawyer or law firm. And too often that happens where the lawyers, especially with certain complex, extremely serious cases, they keep them and they settle them for significantly less than if we had had our hands on it. Not always, we can't guarantee that every time. It depends on the circumstances, but those cases that are out there, are we going to require the know-how to prosecute them and then strike fear in the hearts of the insurance companies. Because they know who the best lawyers are, they know the ones that are fearless, they know the ones that can whack them badly if they don't pay the amount that's demanded.
Chris Dreyer:
One of the things I really like is the in-house PR team because it highlights your social proof to be the choice for referrals and it gives you a unique selling proposition that you can highlight your big results, your awards, accomplishments. But the other thing it does is it powers that flywheel for digital marketing. I'm an SEO guy and when I hear an in-house PR team, I'm just kind of like, "Oh, that's nice, get those back links and help your content rank better." So it has kind of that flywheel effect. The other thing, if you're looking at a pre lit firm versus a trial firm, a lot of times these pre lit firms will put their case results on their website, and I think it's a huge mistake. If I'm a consumer and I go and I'm going to make a choice on who I'm going to hire and I go see your results and I go, let me go check out another firm and I see, oh, well, they don't have very good results. Why would the pre lit firm ever highlight those? Why wouldn't they talk about maybe the volume or the number of cases they've done to show their social proof?
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
We have to remember that a lot of the victims of negligent conduct or the consumers out there that are looking, they don't possess the level of sophistication and not even a fraction of someone like you or I. We can really dig into the details and do a search and truly find a lawyer or law firm that really has a track record that makes us comfortable that they're the firm that to handle a particular case, potential plaintiffs, they don't understand those differences. I think that's in large measure what happens there because I've had very huge cases that resulted from a referral from a law firm and all they do is television advertising. They don't try cases, they don't do depositions, they just broker cases. And we have a fairly liberal referral fee rules here in Illinois. So long as you remain responsible for the case, you're, the referral fee is not dependent on how much time you put in and so forth. So as a result, that's a cottage industry unit of itself. Getting the case oftentimes is half the battle, but you're surprised that someone that has brain-damaged twins as a result of poor management of pregnancy, labor and delivery calls somebody because they do an advertisement on TV that are your children, do they have cerebral palsy? And if so, call one 800 this number. I mean, would we pick somebody to handle a case of that nature based on a TV ad? You know, and I would not, or if we had a medical problem, the of a kind of equivalent complexity and seriousness, we would carefully do our due diligence on who the best doctor is, the best surgeon, the best practice, whatever the case may be. So I just think that's a reality of the business, and I'm not on the bandwagon saying this has got to change. It is what it is, and we gladly handle cases from law firms that just advertise for them or they do nothing more than make a phone call to us, and we don't quarrel with them, we don't whine about it. And now we're in a position now where we're not held. If someone wants half of the fee on a very complex case, that potentially is pretty good, but it's going to be thousands of hours of work and hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses. I don't need that kind of business, even though ultimately it may be a $10 million or $15 million case, it's not going to make economic sense for us. So we'll let somebody else do that and not look back at all.
Chris Dreyer:
So let's say I'm a potential prospective client. I've got a very serious injury, it's a case that your firm does, and I come to you and I say, "Hey, I'm just not sure which PI firm I should use. Why should I use you? "
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Yeah, I think when I am interviewing a potential client in a situation where I know usually they're just very upfront and tell me that they're speaking with other firms. Number one, I spend the time that's necessary to kind of get to know them and show empathy, sincere empathy to their situation. I truly and sincerely say to them, I'm so sorry to meet you under these circumstances. They've lost a loved one or they've suffered a terrible injury or a loved one has a spouse or a child. And then what I try to do is to, in a sincere fashion, persuade them that they've come to the right place. Number one, I tell them, and I mean when I say I'm not a high pressure salesperson, the other firms that you've talked to are excellent, but I have to say we probably have the largest verdicts and settlements in the city and in the state, and we're very experienced with regards to the particular situation that you're in. Although it's going to take a lot of work and know how, it's not a particularly complex case. You've come to the right place. Now I'm biassed, but I don't think there's anyone that is going to do a better job than myself and my law firm, and we're ready to get to work on the case right now. Right now. I mean what I say, I'm not trying to bamboozle them. I honestly believe that they found the right person. They're in the right place. They don't need to do anymore. They've found me.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Patrick Salvi Sr. for offering his time tested insights and wisdom today. There's so much here, so let's get to the PIM points. PIM point number one, be prepared and trust your talents. It's easy to fall into the trap of perfectionism and get stuck in the fear of making a mistake, especially in court. Eat, sleep, and breathe a case before trial. Obsessive preparation can help you enter the courtroom with courage.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
You can't predict everything at trial, but you have to trust your talents and trust the fact that you're going to be able to deliver. I think one of the most important aspects of a great trial lawyer is not only God-given talents, dogged preparation, but then you must ultimately have a significant amount of fearlessness in order to try a case
Chris Dreyer:
PIM Point number two, go the extra mile. You got to be on your game 24/7 in niche markets like personal injury and med mal. Chase the leads that you already have and increase your touch points, but remember to make it about them.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
Did you sign up the case? Always following all the rules of ethics, et cetera. In my business, it's very, very common, almost on a daily basis where we are competing usually against pretty much the same three to five law firms for cases. We don't dilly-dally with regards to calling people back, setting up meetings, doing what's necessary in a professional fashion to persuade the client. Then as I tell my lawyers, we have to deliver on the promise. We didn't make these promises just to get the case signed up and then coast into victory
Chris Dreyer:
And to round it all out. PIM Point number three, close a client through connection, genuine empathy reassures potential clients that they are in great hands. It tells them that your firm understands what they're experiencing. Here's how Mr. Salvi does it.
Patrick Salvi Sr.:
I spend the time as necessary to get to know them, show sincere empathy to their situation. What I try to do is to, in a sincere fashion, persuade them that they've come to the right place. You've come to the right place. Now I'm biassed, but I don't think there's anyone that is going to do a better job than myself in my law firm.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm Chris Dreyer. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. Each week we bring insights from the best in the business. To get in touch with Mr. Salvi, head on over to salvilaw.com. That's S-A-L-V-I-L.com. He's more than happy to bounce ideas and answer questions on similar cases. You can find that link in the show notes. While you're there, do me a solid leave, a five star review on Apple or Spotify, I'll be forever grateful. If this is your first episode or if you've been here since episode one. Thanks for hanging out. Catch you next time. I'm out.
