Michael Kelly:
The worst part about running a business is being every department.
Chris Dreyer:
Law school teaches you how to practice law, but it doesn't teach you a single thing about how to run a company.
Michael Kelly:
Being HR, being the lawyer, being marketing, being business development, being intake, being finance, that's hard.
Chris Dreyer:
An efficient system might work when you're running a solo practice, but when you hit that two or $4 million revenue mark, the cracks in the foundation really start to show. You're burnt out for wearing every hat, the chaos bleeds into the office, and the team brow takes a massive hit.
Michael Kelly:
My culture sucked. People hated me. They hated my law firm. Even the people working within it, it was just the means to an end for them. My problem was taking on too much at once and not having the operation set up, and kind of sinking the ship with all of the work we were producing, but not having the systems in place to manage that uptick.
Chris Dreyer:
You can't scale if you're doing it all. You have to establish systems, put the right people to the right seats, transition from working in your business to working on it. You're no longer just a lawyer, you're a CEO.
Michael Kelly:
At this point, I'm a lawyer, but more so than that, with the seat that I sit in now, I'm a businessman. Right? So I'm running law as my business, and I think that the tools that I'm learning now is transferable into any single business that you want to do.
Chris Dreyer:
This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, Founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms.
Today, we're joined by Michael Kelly, the powerhouse behind Michael Kelly Injury Lawyers. Michael has scaled to 10 offices across Massachusetts, and recently secured a massive $17.6 million judgment for his client.
But getting there wasn't just about trying cases. It's about completely overhauling his firm's culture, implementing EOS operational frameworks and utilizing tech to keep a 92% conversion rate on wanted leads. Let's get into it.
I'm really punked to talk with you. You recently announced a $17.6 million judgment. You had three women, I guess, get injured in a tree fall accident. First, tell me about the case. Tell me about that scenario. It's just such an odd story to read from the outside.
Michael Kelly:
Yeah, man. Things are happening over here, huh? That was a big one for us. That's our biggest to date. So very happy to secure that on behalf of the clients. Kind of a strange case as many of them are when you get judgements like that, right? They're kind of not your stereotypical rear end accident all the time.
So these folks were living in a rental home. They walked outside. A huge 40-foot tree had just been going for a while. Landlord was unnoticed that there was some problems on the property. It comes down, strikes all of them. We got some body cam footage. We got experts involved. And a couple of years later, a good result for them. So happy to do that for the clients.
Chris Dreyer:
Unreal. I got to tell you. I have a decent amount of real estate, so that just put the fear in me of...
Michael Kelly:
You and me both, man.
Chris Dreyer:
Right?
Michael Kelly:
You and me both.
Chris Dreyer:
Before we click start on the pod, we were talking, hey, you've had this unique arc, right? Where you guys have just really found what's working and you kind of broke through some different milestones. And you mentioned that, hey, a lot of people are stuck at a certain point. And in that two to $4 million range, what's the move? What's the move that takes you to that next level? And talk to me about your story.
Michael Kelly:
It's so interesting. This business is super interesting right now. I don't think it's ever been like this in kind of the course of time. There was this old guard that didn't have access to the things that we have access to now. And if you're not grabbing onto the technology and the advancements that are taking place, not only in our business, but any business, I mean, you're going to be left behind.
So a lot of law firms, a lot of law firms I talked to are kind of in that range. Many of them don't want to get any bigger. There are headaches when you get bigger. A lot of headaches when you add employees and overhead and all the different things that... Liabilities and vulnerabilities everywhere when you get a little larger. And I can't imagine what it's going to be like when we get a little bigger than we are now, but a lot of people do want to break through that.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's start with the front end, the marketing. Right? A lot of the people listening are like, "How do you get the leads?" There's a lot more than just the leads, but talk to me about what changed with the marketing. I know. I've watched some of your videos, and you've got Crispy introduced to the world and television. But doing TV and doing it right, I mean, that's a big investment. That's a big risk. Talk to me about the advertising changes that you did to get the leads.
Michael Kelly:
Yeah, sure. I mean, that stuff is scary because when you're in that, I'll call it smaller, just because we're a little bigger now, but it's certainly not small to a lot of businesses. But that one to $5 million range, it's hard to get the share of voice that you need on a platform like television to actually make an impact. It's so funny, man. My first year, I had a partner at the time, and we saved up some money to get a billboard. It was the shittiest looking billboard you've ever seen in your life. We threw it in a part of town. I think we paid like a thousand bucks for it.
I thought the phone was going to be ringing off the hook as soon as this thing went up. We didn't get a single call. Right? And it's very much like that with these huge platforms of advertising like billboards, television, LSA, PPC, social media, all that stuff. You have to have the amount of money that it takes to make an impact. And then, you have to have the guts to stay with it when it doesn't quite get off the ground. So that's getting a little bigger, I would say, into the hundreds of cases signed up a month. But for me, the challenge wasn't really the advertising.
You're closer to the ground and getting off the ground. I think the grassroots stuff is super important. Your referral resources, providing excellent service to clients. Even today, like 20 or 25% of our cases come from existing or previous clients or their friends, family, cousins, brothers, sisters, whatever it may be. So the service aspect is huge, and you can never let go of that, but the cases weren't my problem. My problem was taking on too much at once and not having the operation set up, and kind of sinking the ship with all of the work we were producing, but not having the systems in place to manage that uptick.
Chris Dreyer:
So let's jump to the operations. Let's jump right in. I mean, so when you started to develop the EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System or kind of this framework, was it maybe a hire, an ops person? When did you start fixing that bottleneck or that constraint in terms of your firm?
Michael Kelly:
So you just hit the two biggest things that were my challenges on the head. It was the person, the people, the culture, right? And I had no idea how important that was a couple of years ago. And frankly, my culture sucked. People hated me. They hated my law firm. Even the people working within it, it was just a means to an end for them. And I knew that that needed to change. I didn't know how important it was until we started to change it, and I saw some of the good things that came out of it. I made a great hire with Tim Paoli. He's our COO. He runs our day-to-day. He's very, very bright, even brilliant chief operating officer that has made all of the difference for us. He has been kind of the tool that we've used to go out there and get the best people that we possibly can.
And then, the other side of it was the accountability. Right? I actually just had this conversation with our managing attorney last night, and then again this morning. Not too long ago, I was in a room saying, "Hey, Dave or Pete or Bill, can you take care of this thing? We need this done." And then, I'd move on to the next thing, right? But Dave, Pete, and Bill wouldn't necessarily do the thing that I asked them to do. Right? So three or four months later when I expected this thing to be completely wrapped up, buttoned, and done, it hadn't even been touched, right? Because Dave, Pete and Bill go out, they pick up a phone call, or get pulled in a different direction, and then it just sits there. So the EOS component was pivotal for us to increase the accountability, the buy-in, tracking things week to week, running the law firm on data.
At this point, I'm a lawyer, but more so than that, with the seat that I sit in now, I'm a businessman. Right? So I'm running law as my business, and I think that the tools that I'm learning now that the world is being exposed to is transferable into any single business that you want to do. And you hear stories. These people learn these skills, they were in law and they say, "I just don't want to do that anymore. I'm not passionate for it." That's not me. I love what we do. I love that we can service our clients and provide great representation in Massachusetts and the surrounding areas. But if we wanted to do something else, I think the things that we're learning and implementing into our business could raise any business into whatever we wanted it to be. The principles are the same.
Chris Dreyer:
If you're going to scale your law firm, you have to establish systems of accountability. Michael just mentioned EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. We use it at Rankings too. Think of it as a highly disciplined framework to get your leadership team aligned and executing.
One of the core elements of EOS is the L10 meeting, a weekly meeting where department heads review their KPIs or key performance indicators. Instead of just guessing how the firm is doing, you're looking at hard data every single week to identify exactly where the bottlenecks are. I wanted to talk to Michael about how he has made EOS work for him and his business.
Yeah, one of the things I kind of wanted to get granular on the scorecard, for example. You have your weekly L10s. What's some of the metrics on the firm side that you are really dialed into, that you're looking at? Is it CAC? What are some of the metrics that you look out? For our audience, like, "Oh, I need to track that."
Michael Kelly:
I don't think that there's an out of the box solution. Of course, some of us track the same or similar KPIs, but they're different from business to business. And I would say with EOS, you need to make it your own. Right? I read Traction. I read Fireproof, which kind of takes Traction and makes it a law firm solution. We don't use all of it. We use what works for us. And we may take things that we like, and change it a little bit, right? So I think that you need to be flexible with EOS because it can be stringent. And if it's too stringent, I think it's hard to adopt, right? Particularly holding yourself accountable and holding your team accountable. If they don't like it and it doesn't feel good to do, you're not going to get the full buy-in that you need.
But with respect to the KPIs and stuff, we do an L10 once a week that's run by department heads, not me, not my COO. We were involved when we kind of got this plane off the ground, but it's their responsibility on a weekly basis to run their meetings with information. So they are in a room with data on a board, looking at it, talking about it. The meeting has an agenda. They don't just go in there and say, "Hey, we're looking at this new product. All right, guys, break. We'll see you in a week." No, no, no. They're in there talking about the same six to eight things every week. Of course, things come up, fires need to be put out, and they handle that.
And then on a monthly basis, the head of that department puts a record together with a chiseled and kind of smaller pieces of the larger KPIs for the department and presents that to myself and Tim Paoli, our COO. So there's a lot of ways to do that, and that's kind of the level that we're at. But if you're a smaller firm, and we've come back to this a couple of times, because I think a lot of people are in that spot. Make it your own. You may not have a huge team and department heads and all that. And the worst part about running a business is being every department. Being HR, being the lawyer, being marketing, being business development, being intake, being finance, that's hard. You know? Or you can put the right people in the right seats, that's when it gets a little easier.
Chris Dreyer:
I want to take a step back, because one of the things you said like, "Hey, we've always had the marketing." But a lot of the audience, they're struggling, right? They need the leads, right? Take TV broadcast. I see a ton of clients still very successful with broadcast, right? But do you jump in if you can't be a top three? Do you wait until you got the capital deployed to be the number one or number two? How do you approach some of these channels, let's say, TV and then maybe digital?
Michael Kelly:
God, man, such a good question. Who knows? You know what I mean? There's plenty of money given out now. I think it has a lot to do with your appetite for risk. If you want to grow and you want to do what maybe the top five or 10% of the companies in our space are doing, you have to be comfortable with some of that. Again, running a couple TV ads for a month or two is not going to do anything for your bottom line. You might as well walk over to the toilet and just flush it down or light it on fire in your backyard, right? So I think the grassroots stuff, setting up your referral relationships, giving your clients great service. I hated hearing those things because they're all long game.
Everyone wants immediate satisfaction. They want things done today or yesterday. And it's just not like that. You can't snap your fingers, and hit the fast-forward button on the clock. You have to go through the tough times. You have to struggle. You have to learn. And you would say the same thing. I mean, you guys have had crazy growth, man. How many mistakes have you made? They kill you sometimes, right? So it's like you have to be willing to face them, and then come out on the other side, which sounds kind of silly and goofy, but just is what it is. You're going to screw up, you're going to make bad decisions, you're going to waste money. I still waste money all the time. All of the time. We make bad decisions with deployment of capital. So it's just part of it, I think.
But if you can really focus on the stuff that does work, like the grassroots stuff. I don't do as much of that anymore. We have a team that does that now, right? And it's very successful. But we measure it and we have meetings about it. We speak to the things that are causing problems and we look at trends. Did we sign up more this month than last month and more this quarter than last quarter? And if those numbers start to go down, we get into a room with good minds and say, "Why?" And we try to answer those questions. So if you're not doing that even on a smaller scale, then... I've used this before, but you're just kind of wandering around. You know what I mean? You have to have a plan in business, and it certainly relates to our business.
Chris Dreyer:
I totally agree. And especially when you're small doing those things. I think everything can scale to some degree, but getting belly to belly and shaking somebody's hand, and developing a referral relationship, and really nurturing those, those are the lowest cost cases you're ever going to receive as opposed to when you start deploying, whether it's Google Ads or TV or radio or what have you.
Michael Kelly:
And you have time for it when you're a little smaller too. I tell this story all the time. I was working in my living room for, like, the first year and a half of my law firm, and I got a fractured sternum case. Probably settled it for like $500,000 now. It settled for 60 grand, right? Just because I was new, the insurance company probably took advantage of me. But the fee it produced was $20,000.
Dude, at the time I was like, "I'm rich." I've never had $20,000 in my life. And that's why we pivoted and started focusing on personal injury. But for those smaller law firms, they're doing everything. You do have the time. You know what I'm saying? So you obviously have to work the cases. But don't skimp on that business development time, that relationship building, that client service, because it will pay back whether or not you want to scale and grow or not.
Chris Dreyer:
Talk to me about the intake side. So right now there's the shiny objects, right? There's the AI. There's the agents that can do the calls. There's a lot of different approaches on the intake side. Talk to me about how you're keeping that wanted conversion rate really high and how you think about intake.
Michael Kelly:
Yeah, sure. So 92%, right? That's what we go for on our wanted leads. And I'll be super interested to kind of see how this whole thing develops with the artificial intelligence and talking to a piece of technology that's not a person, because it's getting pretty close to feeling more seamless. Right? I think at this point, you can still kind of tell. But what we've learned through the research, and then deploying some of this stuff after hours and on the weekends, is a lot of people don't care.
We actually give them the option. Do you want to continue with this artificial representative or do you want to be transferred to a human being? And a lot of them say, "I'll just continue on with this." Right? They're asking good questions. This will be sent to the legal team, and then we'll be contacted Monday morning, for instance, if that's what the policy or procedure is.
Chris Dreyer:
You know, the interesting thing is, I look at the pros, cons. It's like, well, if you got 10 calls that came in at once, well, your AI can answer all 10, right? In parallel.
Michael Kelly:
Hundred percent. And they never miss a phone call, right?
Chris Dreyer:
Right. And then the intake specialists, if they don't document, even if the self-recordings and stuff into the CRM. Well, the AI is going to have all that, right? So they can call three months later and still have information about the case.
Michael Kelly:
And that's one of the things they're talking about even more now is deploy that representative as your chaser. They can send the emails, they can send the text, they can make the follow-up phone calls. And then if someone picks up, that get transferred to a live rep, which was a ton of man-hours and labor. Right? To have someone Sunday morning, Sunday night, Saturday, Friday, Thursday at midnight, right? Where now, it's possible to never lose a lead that's interested in contacting your law firm because that piece of technology is following up on everything.
Chris Dreyer:
A thousand percent. On the agency side, I'm like that buy or die mindset because we're providing value. And I think about that on the PI side too. If they got a good case, even if it's past 14, 30 days, it's still in the statute. I think we just talked to a individual that owned a product called Neto. I was like, "Hey, after 30-day, maybe you got your case cadence and you stop at 30 days. Well, what's it hurt to put this tech on that for the 30-day plus?"
Michael Kelly:
Couldn't agree more. And they actually presented to us at the last conference that we were at, and they're saving cases that otherwise would've been marked turned down or gone. And then think about this, man. What if that $17.6 million case calls you at Sunday at 2:00 in the morning, and no one gets it. And then, they call the next law firm who does have these things implemented at a law firm. Someone picks up, and then it goes to them. I mean, do the math on 35 or 40% at 17.6 million. Right?
That pays for a lot of TV advertising you're talking about or the billboards that people want to hang. So you have to have this stuff. And like the solos, I remember going to court, dude, for a case management conference. You get there at 9:00, out at 1:00. I'm missing phone calls. It used to drive me nuts. Who was that that called? They didn't leave a voicemail. I called back, no one picked up. But it's like you have to catch every single one of these opportunities if you're going to take yourself and your business seriously. And what a wonderful way to do it.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. I mean, and that definitely solves the 24/7, and at least gives you a backup. There's definitely the advantages of a person that can be empathetic and can kind of deviate from a script and answer the true questions they're asking. But yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Leveraging AI to lock down your intake 24/7 is an absolute game changer. It means you never miss a lead no matter the hour. The capturing demand is only half the battle. Once that case comes in the door, the human element takes over. As Michael realized, you can have all the leads in the world, but if your internal culture is fractured, your firm will inevitably hit a wall.
I kind of want to move to something you mentioned earlier too. You said, "Hey, we were intentional about the culture. We wanted to be intentional." And you turned it around and you've got a thriving practice. What were some of the things that you did? Take me through that and how you turned the culture to get that alignment.
Michael Kelly:
Yeah. So I was a guy, and I'm not afraid to admit it now, because we've come out on the other side that didn't really love going to his law firm. I didn't love the people that we had employed. They didn't believe in my vision. They didn't believe in what I was trying to accomplish, the help that we were trying to provide while also doing well for the law firm and the people that worked at the law firm, the families that the law firm supports. We have 85 or 90 employees now. And I take a lot of pride in the fact that they come to work, and we're able to compensate them for the great work that they do for us and our clients.
That supports their families, their friends. People send money back home. We have folks working in other countries. I mean, it's beautiful to be able to go to sleep at night and say to yourself, "I had a part in building this thing that has had an effect and a positive effect on so many people." And the culture thing, I think, man, and I never would've said this might be the most important thing you have. When I was listening to Bill Biggs back in the day, no idea what the guy was talking about. Love Bill Biggs. You know what I'm saying? That wasn't something that I was focused in on. I was more, how do I get the value up? How do I sign more cases?
But if your shop isn't great and the work that the people at your shop are providing, your clients isn't fantastic, then you are going to lose in the long run. And we went through a period of time where you get bad reviews or complaints come in, or this, that, the other. And we finally stepped back and said, "This needs to be fixed." And when we fixed it, and we're going on three or four years now since we really got in there and put our hands on it, the law firm is completely just rocket shipped to another level. I honestly don't think we have a single employee that doesn't love their job, and that is very, very difficult to say.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. That's rare. Got to imagine too, that long weekend, a four-day weekend, and people are ready to come back to work. They're not dreading that.
Michael Kelly:
Hundred percent. And we do all that. We give unlimited PTO. We look at it. But if someone is performing well, take seven or eight weeks vacation. That's not something that bothers me now. If they take advantage of it, that's different. You have to have things that catch that and have upfront, honest conversations. But we give a lot to our employees too, and that's important. They have to feel like you got their back, and I feel like our employees do. There are easy ways to do that.
It's funny, I'm sure you've looked at this too. If you polled an employee, what's most important to you? And we did this six months ago, it's like 30% pay. It's all that other stuff that makes up for whether or not this person's having a great experience at your business. And we learned that and we've really been obsessed with it since. And like I said, it's really paid back, not only just in the feel good and wanting to go into your business and spend time with these people, but also on the bottom line, on the P&L.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. Talk to me about some quantum leap roles, right? You said, "Hey, our COO. Killer." Right? Are there any other roles that were like, "Man, I hired this and it like was a quantum leap." I think for myself personally, and I'm like, "Why did I wait so long for a CFO? Why did I wait so long?"
Michael Kelly:
Right?
Chris Dreyer:
It's just immensely valuable. Same for like, a VP, HR. But for you, what were some of those quantum hires?
Michael Kelly:
Dude, scary to go spend the money on these people because I've been watching a little bit of James Helms stuff. One of his keys to hiring is find 10 out of 10 talent, pay him 12 out of 10 money. I couldn't agree more. You have to get the best in business, or you're going to be offering a product that is inferior to your competitor, who's probably right down the street. Right? Particularly in my business. So we've done a lot of promoting from within. Our managing attorney now was an associate attorney when he began. Our director heads have all been with us for a longer period of time. Some shorter, but they're invested in the culture and believe in the culture. Not easy to find these people. You know what I'm saying?
And one of the hardest things to do, which we just did yesterday was find someone that we thought very, very experienced, this, that, the other. We sent to him our employment agreement, came back with a million edits. It's just like the edits were well-thought-out, like crazy intelligent individual. You could tell, just him as a lawyer, he would be exceptional, but just didn't quite fit into what we were doing. And not necessarily because he was challenging the employment agreement, which I completely respect, and I think everyone should read those closely. But just the way that it was done, right? A phone call, "Hey, man, really excited. These things don't sit well. Can we talk about them?" Would have been way different than a three-page email to our HR director that was aggressive, and this, that, the other.
It's like, at the end of the day, bro, you're still applying for a job here. You know what I'm saying? We don't have to hire you. And I didn't love doing this, but I had a meeting set up for in the morning, and I canceled 10 minutes before just because it didn't sit right. And I made that mistake before. And I said to myself, "There's other people out there that could fill this role and be a better fit for us." So I don't want to introduce that into our culture. And it was hard, and I felt bad about it afterwards. I felt sick almost because I don't want to make a mistake, but you have to make these mistakes as the head of the snake, and live with them afterwards.
Chris Dreyer:
Super smart. We've all been there, right? You hire the person, and then they start, and you think they're going to be amazing, then they're not amazing. And then you hire the person, and then someone exceeds expectations. It's such a challenge, no matter how good your hiring funnel and interview questions are.
Michael Kelly:
Hundred percent. There's got to be so much trust with your group. Our CFO started as my assistant 12 years ago. You know what I'm saying? So there's been this promoting from within and being around people that you really trust every day is so important. Because when you are the head of a company, a growing company, the target on your back gets bigger, right? From competitors, from clients, from all of the ethical, state, federal regulations. You have to run a tight shop. And at the end of the day, when you have a hundred people running around, you're the one that has to answer for everything that they do.
So you constantly have to have your finger on the pulse and making sure that you guys are doing things the right way, which is why I think the trust is so important. And one of the things that I think is kind of cool to bring up that others might be facing that are trying to scale a law firm from a younger age is that I had all these older lawyers looking at a 35-year-old being like, "I've been doing this for 30 years. Why should I listen to this kid?" And they were probably right with respect to the law, right? But they didn't know how to run a business.
If someone's not going to believe in your vision and go down that path with you, you got to get them out. Because even one person that's kind of loud enough with some respect or kind of some cache in the office, it can turn quick on you. So anyone listening, be very careful about the people you bring in. And even if it feels good and it's easy, say no and take the time. Right? This whole hire slow, fire fast, it sucks to live because we all need people in there doing their job, but the wrong person, it really costs you.
Chris Dreyer:
So much. So many hard lessons. And for me too, it's like-
Michael Kelly:
I can hear you. You've been going through them too, man.
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, man. Well, it's like, to me, the people component, that's when I was excited to implement KPIs for people because then it's like... It's the number, right? You're not hitting the number, right? As opposed to being kind of subject-
Michael Kelly:
I'm not mad at you.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I like you.
Michael Kelly:
You know?
Chris Dreyer:
You're good, but-
Michael Kelly:
It's just it is what it is. Right? Yeah.
Chris Dreyer:
But, yeah, but it's so tough, but so necessary for leverage to grow. And you guys are growing like crazy. I mean, how many offices you have in Massachusetts now? I mean...
Michael Kelly:
Oh, God, man. We got like 10 or 12 in Massachusetts starting to creep into Southern New Hampshire and Northern Connecticut. You know? We'll see. We'll take it step by step and try to make some good decisions and learn from some of the bad ones we've made in the past. But if you run a good office and provide a good service, sky's the limit.
Chris Dreyer:
Well said. Well said. Michael, this has been amazing. For our audience listening, maybe that's the case. And Boston maybe, in any of your jurisdictions, wants to reach out or has questions about the pod, what's the best way to get in touch?
Michael Kelly:
You can call us. Our number is (617) 444-4444. And our website is callkellycall4.com. And Chris, let me tell you, man, it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate you guys having me on. And hope to see you in Phoenix next year, man.
Chris Dreyer:
Yes, sir. Thanks, Michael. Really appreciate it.
A huge thanks to Michael Kelly for sharing his journey with us today. Scaling past that two to $4 million mark isn't about working harder. It's about taking off that lawyer hat, and putting on that CEO hat. Michael realized to experience quantum growth, you have to stop trying to run every single department, yet to build a culture of trust, bring in elite talent, and lean into operational frameworks like EOS.
To win in today's highly competitive PI landscape, you have to treat your firm like a business. And part of running a successful business is partnering with people who actually deliver results. If you're ready to dominate your market and want an SEO and marketing partner that operates on proof over promises, head on over to Rankings.io. I'm Chris Dreyer, and this has been Personal Injury Mastermind. Catch you next time.
