Sam Aguiar:
We just spoil our clients, and really go over the top for them, especially at the beginning of the case and the end of the case, they're inclined to be raving fans, the ROI on that is just incredible. Because when we talk to all these PI firms, you're talking about an average revenue per case that's in the five figures, and so if I've got to invest several hundred dollars into making sure the client experience is right, all it takes is for one out of 30 of those folks to be of a referral source, and I've got ROI for life.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Entry Mastermind, I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. Magic Lives in the unexpected. Disney, the Savannah Bananas, and Sam Aguiar Injury Lawyers, these three brands have nailed surprise and delight. This is marketing strategy that gives clients the unparalleled experiences and service they didn't know they needed. And today's guest, Sam Aguiar, is a master. Inspirational billboards, tickets to games, high touch and low volume case loads, all of this works together to create a lifetime client value that is through the roof. He is playing the game by his own rules and winning every time, here's what he's doing right in the personal injury game. Let's go.
Sam Aguiar:
And so, as we sit here in 2025, we're bigger than I ever thought we'd be, that's kind of good kind of bad. We've got 10 lawyers, 45 people total, we've got a standalone office down in Lexington, Kentucky that we've had for four years, but we bought a building last year, so that's exciting. Here, in Louisville, we've got about 35 people on site, we're doing about 100 to 125 car accident cases a month, eight figure revenue firm, all about culture, had some nice growth. It's fun times, it's a little nerve wracking in the PI world, but I wouldn't trade my job for anybody else in the world.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, that's amazing. I love Louisville. It's close, I'm Midwest, right? I'm in Marion, Illinois, and so it's awesome.
Sam Aguiar:
I didn't realize you were Marion.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, Williamson County.
Sam Aguiar:
So, I went to Murray State, and you basically had to throw a dart and pick St. Louis, Memphis, Nashville, or Louisville... A lot of times we'd pick St. Louis, and I dated girl who lived in Mount Vernon, you had Carbondale, and... Hopefully I'm speaking your language right now.
Chris Dreyer:
Oh yeah, you are. I went to Carbon, I went to SIU, and then one of my good buddies-
Sam Aguiar:
Oh, did you really?
Chris Dreyer:
... is Brendan Mullins. So, he's a first assistant over on the basketball team.
Sam Aguiar:
Yeah, man, I didn't realize you were a Saluki, that's cool.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, small world, small world. One of the things I really like about your firm, your practice and just your approach to everything, is it just seems so client-focused. Everything down from the positive messages on the billboards, to your guarantee, to how you treat the client with the team of three, and I want to talk about each of these individuals, but starting with the billboard advertising, you take a unique approach. It's using positive messages with your logo, and it's different than other PI firms. So, talk to me about that approach.
Sam Aguiar:
So, everything's about the client, and everything's about doing what's right for others. So, I'm sitting here, and Chris, it's late November, I'm working on a Saturday, and I'm looking outside and it's already starting to look a little like January, and I'm like, man, the world's kind of crazy right now. And every year in January, I don't know what motivated you going down to Florida, but every year in January, I'm sitting here in Louisville, and I'm like, man, Louisville is cool, but not in January. Everybody's bummed, the holidays are over, I won't allow our firm to get a trial date in January because juries are bummed, everybody's bummed. And I'm just sitting here, and I'm like, people get on Instagram and some other stuff now, it seems like they get kind of inspired when they see a nice message. I'm like, I could do that for free, or I could go out and spend a stupid amount of money and put them on a bunch of billboards for all these folks that are commuting into work, and mental health's a real problem right now.
And so, I just got on Canva, and I was just writing up some things, like some little positive affirmations, like believe in yourself, or stay strong or something, and chose the most simple font, and put our little logo on it, and I sent it to my billboard rep, and I said, man, some people around this time of year after the holidays might be a little bummed and this might give them a little positive affirmation, so why don't you go ahead and throw these up, and I'm probably not going to make any money off of them, but if nothing else, maybe there'll be a few people each day that really needed that pick me up. So, we launched it in January. And as I sit here, four months later, it's kind of insane, I've gotten over 1000 messages sent to the firm, whether through my personal email, through Facebook, through cards in the mail, through phone calls, through Google LSA messages, of just people saying thanks. And it's unbelievable.
We're actually seeing ROI on this, which, that was completely unexpected, we're getting direct attribution on cases where people just say billboards. And we're getting even more messages from people that say, I don't know why you did this, your marketing agency's a genius, they don't realize it's actually some non-genius lawyer that came up with it on a Saturday, and they say, I don't need a lawyer right now, but you better believe if I ever do, it's you guys. So, it's been pretty incredible. And the folks that are reaching out, there's been some corporate executives, there's been nurses, doctors, lawyers, people in recovery, you name it. And who would've thought, that just driving down the road and seeing a little positive message would resonate so much to where you're actually going to call the injury lawyer that did it, and frankly, I get blown away by it. It's pretty awesome.
Chris Dreyer:
That is awesome. And it's so different. It stands out too because it is different, it is positive, as opposed to... It almost, so I think PI attorneys, obviously, I think there are a lot of amazing PI attorneys that really want to help the consumer, but I think the perception from the other side is not that. So, when you see the injured question mark, or the accent question mark, it has this negative connotation, where you're flipping the script, and you're making them feel good about driving into work, and their day, and so I think it's awesome.
Sam Aguiar:
It's pretty cool. And yeah, I don't like being status quo, I don't like being normal, I've got way too high of a risk tolerance, and if it's something that everybody else is doing, some of the things that you talk about with... I want to be the best, I love reading how competitive you are, because I don't meet many people that I feel like are as risk competitive is me, but sounds like you might be up there. But if somebody else is doing it, I want to do it better. Whether it's AI, integration in the firm scares me to death because we got to be ahead of the curb on that, or if it's advertising. We do a lot for the community, and earlier this year, Louisville basketball, we had a Renaissance this year. They call it the revival because we went through two horrible years, and talked to my U of L guy and he's like, you want to give away some tickets? And I said, sure. I said, that sounds great.
I said, what are we talking? He said, well, I can get them for you in blocks of 100, and I'm sitting there, I'm like, all right, whatever. So, I get 1000 tickets to give away, and half of it was former clients, we put them in, first come first serve, the other half were organizations, and they ran out in three hours. So, I was like, give me 1000 more. And they ran out, and there was one organization that had a lot of kids that hadn't got in in time, so before I knew it, I was sending 2,500 people to a Louisville basketball game against Virginia, that we sponsored. Now, they gave me an incredible deal, literally face value on those tickets is $50 , I was able to send all these folks for $5 a piece, but my wife, she just looked at me and laughed, because she's like, it's always got to be over the top, doesn't it?
But again, yeah, culture here is clients, community, and obviously culture as well, and so that's at the bottom of my email signature, frankly, I stole it from a guy who sent me an email, wanted a job here, he said, "Seems like clients and culture and community are big for you," and I was like, thanks man, I don't know if I got to pay for that, but I'm adopting it.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. The grassroots, the grassroots community building, it's just so powerful, getting belly to belly, shaking people's hands, doing those personal local things, it has a lot of power. I think when I was doing some research, it was just a few years ago, and it could be longer, that you had 65% of your cases from referrals, what's changed? When you say referrals, is that peer referrals or was that consumer referrals?
Sam Aguiar:
No, no, that's a good question. So, I was with a great ad agency for 12 years, CJ, CJ Advertising, out of Nashville. Good community, not with them any longer, but no knock on them, it's just it is what it is. But it was pretty cool because we would go each year and we'd share numbers, and we'd like to see where we stacked up. And every year we always led the agency, and the percentage of cases that we got that were unpaid marketing. So, when you see referrals, it was not B2B or anything like that, it was literally just word of mouth, didn't have to pay a dime for the case. Which was awesome. But the flip side to that was, is that it was typically 65 to 70, 35, 70/30 word of mouth, so I'd look at it and I'd be like, that's amazing, but it also means that my marketing's probably not doing what it needs to be doing because, ideally, I'd prefer to be 50/50 there.
So, right now, as we sit here, I think we're 58/42 still word of mouth to paid marketing. And in this omnichannel world right now, I'm still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. But some things that you brought up, if I were to hope that someone was listening and say, what are some tangible takeaways that this guy's done right? Because I've done a hell of a lot wrong. I'd say that, what I realized, especially with cars getting safer, the alternative business structures that are coming out there, people are still going to pay a premium for good service.
One of the things that we realized is if we just spoil our clients, and really go over the top for them, especially at the beginning of the case and the end of the case, because I'm big on primacy recency effect, and they're going to remember the first and the last interactions more than the middle, they're inclined to go and really still talk about you, be raving fans, and that they're still folks that are out there that are going to say, yeah, I'm getting hounded by all these trackers online, and everybody else, but I still want to go with that law firm because I know that I've got that social proof factor.
Another thing that I've realized is that if you spend a little bit of extra money on the client experience, the ROI on that is just incredible. Because when we talk to all these PI firms, you're talking about an average revenue per case, it's in the five figures, and so if I've got to invest several hundred dollars into making sure the client experience is right, if I've got a cut fee at the end, or if after the case is done, I realize that one of these clients has kids that are a big Louisville fan, and I'm going to go get them shirts and tickets and stuff like that... Chris, all it takes is for one out of 30 of those folks to be of a referral source, and I've got ROI for life. So, one of these things that, I know that a lot of firms right now are big on convenience, you never have to come see us, literally from day one, it's going to be on the phone, and then it's going to be online, and then we're going to get the money direct deposit in your account.
I'm all for that to a certain extent, except for the fact that you've completely missed the opportunity to at least have one in-person interaction with that client. And so, I see a lot of my competition out there right now really adopt that model, and the convenience is there, but if you miss that opportunity to at least just see them in person, and show them that you're real, and show them that you really do care, I don't know if they're going to be inclined to, as inclined to send you business in the future.
Chris Dreyer:
I think I said I love this previously, but I love every statement you just said. It's incredible. You look at all the different models of firms, and there's a lot of variations of it, and I think I've heard John Morgan refer to this as systemic marketing, I think that's the phrase that he puts on it. Because he meets the people and he gets a heavy amount of referrals, and you're talking... That percentage that you get is absolutely mind-blowing, and just how powerful it is. It's just incredible. But I think it's everything you're doing, I think it's the whole flywheel. It's the positive message, it's the interaction, it's the care... I imagine where you're at 700+ reviews, asking for review at the end, it's not like bribing them to leave a review, they've had this end to end experience, it's like, absolutely, let me leave a review.
Sam Aguiar:
I'm here. I'm here every day. I love everything about what I do, and I really love that last interaction with clients. So, the folks here know, if a client's coming in, I'm here. Let's get a picture, let's do a video, let me talk to him. Because the reality is too, is that it's only taken me a few minutes, I can also issue spot things about the experience. If for some reason I'm with somebody and I sense any sort of apprehension, there was just something that they are leaving confused about, we're going to make it right there. But the last hour and a half, I've had three clients come in, just coincidentally, and picked up their settlement checks. First thing I say is, how was it? Did my guys treat you okay? And they're just beaming, all three of the groups came in. Yes, absolutely.
Then, I've got some gift cards put aside too. So, I'm like, hey... So, if it's a grandma, I'm usually going to her and saying, hey, do your grandkids like to go to the movies? Or do they like McDonald's? They love McDonald's. Well, cool, here's my stash. Here you go. I'm not the one who asked them for the Google review, the team that's handling the case has already said, hey, listen, if you had a good experience, we'd love a review, it goes a long way, more than you know. More than I, really legit, more than I knew how important Google reviews are, they're so fricking important. And all three of them left, and I think two of them, we've already got the notification that they left us Google reviews. The Google review part's the added bonus, but just seeing them walk out, getting to hold the door for them.
I've got a celebrity factor, which I haven't earned, and I don't deserve, but the reality is, if your name's on billboards, and you're on TV and stuff, they don't realize you're just paying to be in front of them, they look at you as a big deal. And it's cool, and I think that they see that it's genuine, they see that it's real. My team at least knows that they're not bothering me, when they come to the office and they say, hey, client photograph? Immediately they know, I'm like, heck yeah, let's go, let's roll, let's do this. Because let's be real, you talk about John Morgan, he's a genius. He really is. I'm not a Morgan & Morgan basher, and I've even got a backstory with Morgan & Morgan where they bought my firm in 2013, and in 30 days I'd bought it back for a lot more than I'd sold it for-
Chris Dreyer:
We know that.
Sam Aguiar:
... because we were cultural misfits. Most people don't know that. But I still admire them. The way they do things is incredible, it works. We see the numbers from a brand sentiment analysis around here, I was just talking to one of my guys about it. They dominate everywhere they go, and John is a genius. I know, I'm smart enough to know that when I wake up each day that I'm not going to try to beat Morgan & Morgan at their own game. The things that I'm always looking for are, what do we have that are the intangibles, that's almost impossible for them to have? We have teams of three, and small caseloads, so... His tech is great, they're more efficient than we are, but we can get a little bit more personal with the clients. But with us, it's the client, it's-
Chris Dreyer:
That's awesome.
Sam Aguiar:
... the client.
Chris Dreyer:
We get the advertising and that component, that case management structure, so there's this stigma around case management and work with firms that advertise, but you have the three people per case, the lawyer, the case manager, the legal assistant... How does this method of case handling take away any stigma associated with being an advertising firm? So, tell me about that particular, that pod, that team structure?
Sam Aguiar:
Sure. Yeah. In the traditional sense, it's a pod model. Our touch points with the client are very frequent. At least early on, there's going to be multiple contacts the first week with the client. A few weeks into the case, if there were some sort of orthopedic concerns or something that was going to warrant a doctor to order some early imaging, we want to be right on that because we want to make sure first and foremost that we've got the information coming in to where we can build our own internal evaluation of the case, but we want to make sure that our client's getting access to medical treatment that they need. A lot of our cases, so our time on desk, I hope it does, I think it'll blow you away, it's six and a half months. So, it's 203 days is our average time on desk.
Chris Dreyer:
Wow.
Sam Aguiar:
And the reason why is because we've really learned how to figure out early when a case is worth the policy limits and go get it. Because you're not doing your client any service if there's a minimum limits policy out there, and you're letting their treatment rack up, the amount of their lien rack up... Yeah, average time on desk is 203 days, median time on desk I think is 150 days, and this isn't because they're treating and getting released, and we're taking a discount, it's because we're going out there and getting those policy limits as quickly as possible. And so, that's a lot of the positive feedback that we get too, a recurring theme that we get through our reviews is, way faster and way more than what I thought was going to happen, and that's the benefit to a big pod.
Or to three people, smaller caseloads, you extract full value quicker, more touch points with the client. The challenge becomes... My labor costs are a lot higher than my competition, when you look at revenue to labor overhead, I can't have a marketing budget that competes. It competes, but I can't have a marketing budget of Morgan & Morgan, or Darryl Isaacs, again, I'm betting on my people and spending more on them, and having to spend a little less on marketing. It works for me, but what they do works for them too, so.
Chris Dreyer:
A lot of times people think of marketing as just the prospective client, getting them in, but there's also marketing to the existing client, and then the afterwards, so I think that pod, well, that's helping on those other situations, getting you the referrals, and the word of mouth. So, I still think it has a different flywheel effect. That's the fastest I've heard time on desk. So, cash acceleration cycle-
Sam Aguiar:
It's pretty cool. Yeah,
Chris Dreyer:
I know Farrin over in North Carolina had, when I talked to him, James, I remember I was oppressed by his. And to be honest, that's one of those questions that as a marketer I need to ask more about, because I always ask the average fees, but I never ask about time on desk, and that's a very important metric.
Sam Aguiar:
It is. I used to get jealous, and then I realized why it wasn't feasible here. So, I'd go and I'd listen to all these brilliant masterminds, Mike Morrison, John, they'd get up and talk, and I'd want to scream out, that's not possible, when they would say, listen, at the beginning of the year, we can tell you within a very small, within 2%, or now they say 0.5% or something, what our revenue is going to be for the year. I'm like, no, you can't. And then, I hear some other firms say it, and I'd be like, no, you can't. But then I realized is that the life cycle on their cases is over a year. So, the reality was is that... I'd still challenge them on that whole 0.4 or 0.5% thing, but I could see now why they could have those forecasting. But it's tougher for us because of we're going to cycle two for every one of theirs, and that makes it a little challenging, but at the same time, it's a good problem to have.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, I think the only other practice area, had Smith Clinesmith on a while back, Dawn Smith and Curtis, I think the nursing home practice, but those... Look, I'm not a lawyer, so I may be talking incorrectly here, but it just seems like nobody wants to take those to trial. You're going to talk about someone's grandma to the jury, I just... Yeah, so the other thing too is you've got the bigger share guarantee, so let's just briefly touch on that, I think you mentioned it earlier, but just what that is, that's another, on that client service consumer first, just for audience, what is that?
Sam Aguiar:
I'm glad you asked about that. It's two things, we're a flat 35%, so there's firms that probably go 33, a third still. We're a flat 35, but we don't bump it when it goes to litigation. So, at least personally, my thought process is that I don't ever want to give off the impression that we filed suit to pad our own wallet. If we're filing suit, there's a strategic reason for it, either it's a trucking case and we need to file early to make sure that we get some good discovery because that's where the money is in the trucking cases, or it's because there's an early liability dispute, or it's because it's an insurance carrier, that we know that the defense attorney that they typically assign is going to be a lot more reasonable to deal with, there's a ton of reasons why we could file early.
I want the client to know that we filed to get them a better result, not because we want to go from 35 to 40% or anything like that. The bigger share guarantee was something that, again, I just woke up one morning, and I'm like, we've always done this, but we've never actually marketed it. Our clients' walk-away will never be less than what we're getting. I can't go home in good conscience and say, I just took 80,000 off of a case and my client took 50,000, it's just not the right thing to do. So, that's our bigger share guarantee, we've always done it, but last year I decided to actually coin it, and I got a trademark on it too.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, saw the little TM, and yeah, that's awesome. And it fits. Bigger share guarantee, the pod, the reviews, the positive messages... It just fits, it sounds like who you are and how you want your firm to be represented, and I think that's awesome.
Sam Aguiar:
Yeah. Well, it makes it easy from a recruitment standpoint, I'll tell you, because I say this a lot, but I can train most people to do what we do, but you can't train people to be nice. You have to have a culture that's service industry... I waited tables for a long time. If you got this impeccable background, you got this great skill set, but it's pretty damn obvious that you are averse to people, that our clients, that you're going to argue with them, that you always have to be right, then there is a job out there for you at a law firm, and you're going to excel at it, and they're going to put you in a spot where you can, but it's not here.
It's just, I'd much rather have a person here that is genuinely excited when their client comes in, and wants to go over the top to make sure that the experience is incredible, than someone that... And if that person might miss a comma or not use the right template, send out a letter of representation, I'll take that person over the person that sends out these amazing letters, but is going to let all their calls go to voicemail.
Chris Dreyer:
I'm with you, I'm with you. Final question, where can our audience go to learn more and connect with you?
Sam Aguiar:
Well, I'm pretty easy to find, it's demandsam.com. I can be a little introverted at times even though it doesn't come across that way, and I can get a little behind on email. Direct line is 502-813-8900, there's lawyers listening here. Cell phone's 502-991-2491. I'm responsive, I love to help people out, and certainly I love to learn from others too.
Chris Dreyer:
That was Sam Aguiar, sharing how his client first approach drives referrals and success. Exceptional service at the beginning and end of a case creates lasting impressions and raving fans for life. For more strategies to grow your personal injury practice, subscribe to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dreyer, catch you next time.
