Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where ambitious attorneys come to learn, implement, and get results. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the SEO agency of choice for elite personal injury law firms.
Today I'm very excited to share with you a podcast that I enjoy and find value in, Be That Lawyer with Steve Fretzin. In this episode, he interviews Sonya Palmer, Senior VP of Ops at Rankings.io, the host of our sister podcast, LawHer. You can find links to both podcasts in the show notes. They discuss how to hire the best talent, why customer service can make or break a firm, and what to do if your firm can't afford SEO yet. Let's get on with the show.
Announcer:
You are listening to be that lawyer life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin:
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are here for your entertainment pleasure and hopefully to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized in the skilled rainmaker, helping you grow your law practice. I've got a very special guest here today, Sonya, how you doing?
Sonya Palmer:
Good, thank you for having me.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, I'm glad you're here. So you and Chris Dreyer have been amazing sponsors of the show and I don't know that everyone knows what you guys are doing, especially I want to talk about the LawHer podcast and I want to just have you share all of your experience being in legal for so many years and I want to get into that.
Of course, we have to start with our quote of the show because that's kind of our jam. And this is a good one, this is one I haven't seen yet and I absolutely read it, I loved it, I read it twice. Here we go, everybody. If you want to build a ship, don't drum them up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work. But rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea. So welcome to the show and then talk about that quote, you had a lot of different options for the quote and you gave me that one. So I want to pick your brain about it.
Sonya Palmer:
Yes, absolutely. I love this entire book, Radical Candor, Kim Scott. It's a fantastic book, especially if you're new to leadership or new to management. But so much of my role as an Operations Lead, scaling business, scaling processes, scaling systems, but beyond that it's scaling people.
And I have tried to adopt a lot of what I saw with Chris and Stephen, and how they were leaders for me. And I feel like we have adopted this anti-micro management philosophy. And when you're a small business being in the weeds, rolling up your sleeves, doing the work, that's just part of it. But as you grow, those checklists, those go collect wood, go chop wood, that starts to feel like red tape or bureaucracy. And these things that were supposed to help you grow and scale are now you. So I always try to just go back to hire the right people, make sure that you trust them, give them that vision, that goal, that direction. And then send them on their way. So this always reminds me of that to just paint that big broad picture as often as possible, and try to stay out of their business.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, it's interesting. Even this morning, someone had mentioned to me this story about in Rome there was a ton of people that it takes to build a cathedral and everyone's got their different roles. And there was someone laying brick and he was asked, "Is this your job laying brick?" He goes, "I'm not laying brick, I'm building a cathedral." So it's totally bought into the end game of what this was all about and what each individual's role is to accomplish that goal. Versus you're a nobody, lay brick and see you tomorrow. Which nobody's going to get behind that like they will at the vision.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, and I think with what we do, I think when you're building a business, building a law firm, the work that we do is important. I think that when you do paint that picture and you do have those goals, it's very, very easy to buy into this.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, that's what we're doing. And I think there's a lot of leaders out there that are so in the weeds, it's so difficult to figure out what the message is, what the path is and how to convey that down. And so they end up ... that's why coaches and training programs and all this stuff exists because there's such a lack of knowledge and education in the legal space to teach these kinds of skills. And so there's books you can buy, but there's also a lot of ... we've had a lot on the show of these coaches who focus on leadership and vision and helping people delegate, et cetera, et cetera.
Sonya Palmer:
A hundred percent.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah. Sonya Palmer, you're the VP of Operations at Rankings.io, you're the host of the LawHer podcast. I'm just thrilled that you're here, and give everybody a little background because we're going to get into the weeds on so many different aspects of growing and scaling and developing a law practice and a business. I want to make sure everyone knows who they're hearing from.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, absolutely. I'll try to keep this short.
Steve Fretzin:
You have about an hour, so just lay it out.
Sonya Palmer:
Excellent. I had a photography business that I started in trying to market it and trying to get new clients. I ended up doing more marketing for small businesses. People weren't coming to me for photography, they were coming to me like, who did your website? Who did your logo? And so I ended up working with a lot of small businesses, I put my entire town's Main Street online. And I really had a passion for that. I have a soft spot for small businesses, my dad owned a small business and that is something that I just became very passionate about, got very good at it. And those early days of Google and search, it was just fun. You could so easily get that organic search up.
But through that, I worked for a couple of agencies and then happenstance I needed a job, applied for it, and Chris found me. And I started as an SEO specialist, and Chris was one of the first people that like, Hey, you're pretty good at your job, what else can you do? And just kept giving me more to do, and I loved that. So eventually became an Ops Lead, processes, systems, checklist, quality control, how can we serve our clients the best? And have been with him now for almost nine years.
Steve Fretzin:
Wow.
Sonya Palmer:
Growing the business. And he had started PIM, such an expert in the personal injury marketing that he had started this podcast and it was thriving, we were getting really cool guests. And we just kind of noticed that nobody was really telling the unique story that women have in this industry, particularly women who were trying to start their own firms. There's a giant gap. And so we started LawHer to just highlight those women in the industry who are killing it, basically. It's been fantastic, it's been wonderful.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, it's a phenomenal show, I've enjoyed it. And I have recommended and referred it to a number of the women that I work with. And it's interesting, when I started coaching lawyers back in 2008 and 2009, I was really working with women because they were sort of handed to me by the firm. And it was typically 20% of the group I would get. And then when I started working only with individual lawyers, it somehow still stayed around 20%, 10 to 20% of my clients were women.
Now it's probably close to 40. And I'm just seeing a massive amount of women flooding into law school and flooding into firms and running their own shows and getting more marketing and rain making chops than the men. And I'm just seeing this sort of conversion happen and I couldn't be happier. And the mindset of women of, "Oh, well, I'm in the friend zone and I don't feel comfortable talking to people." No, they're figuring out methods to get through and build their own stuff. Really cool.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah. When we started LawHer, the percentage was, I think, 18% of women were partners in law firms. And just in the two, three years that we've been recording, that is now 22. So we're definitely on the right track.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah. And then going out on their own and starting their own firms, it's like a record number of women going out and saying, "Look, I don't need to work with these men." Or, "I don't need to be a part of this firm and take orders. I can run my own show. It's not rocket science."
Sonya Palmer:
Absolutely. I really encourage it too. I encourage as many people to own small business as possible, but I do think that the pandemic changed things for a lot of women ... changed things for people in general, obviously. But I think going digital to tools, AI, all of that has made it easier. And flexibility, the autonomy, I don't think people are afraid of hard work. Just that Monday through Friday, 9:00 to 5:00 is really hard to commit to when you have kids, when you have a family, when you're trying to take care of older parents. Whatever is happening in your life, and they were willing to take that chance, start their own business so that they would have that agency and that autonomy over their own schedules. So yeah, it's really, really amazing.
Steve Fretzin:
And why is it so important for women to step up into leadership roles? Whether that's on their own or that's within a mid-market big firm.
Sonya Palmer:
That's a really great question. I don't think that it's a nice thing to do or it's the politically correct thing to do. I think it's what's best for the business. Especially within law firms because law firms serve all different types of people and clients. Different backgrounds, different perspectives, ways of life, different cultures. And when you can mirror that on your own staff and on your own leadership team, so that those same perspectives are being considered and thought about, it just helps you take better care of your clients. Which I think is the foundation of any successful business is how well you can serve your clients and how well you can produce results for them or results. So I do think that, again, I don't even think that it's, oh, it's the right thing to do because it is. But I think it's what helps grow the business are those different diverse perspectives.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, I mean outside of pandemic, what I'm feeling is a desire from women to explore leadership roles, to step up and realize it's not a man's world and there's opportunities for everybody. They're feeling either more on level playing field than maybe in the past where it was the glad handing old white guy that the golf club that was buying drinks, and that was what was sort of the rainmaker image. And now I think women are realizing that's sort of done or kind of done. And you can network in a more traditional sense, you can market in a more traditional sense and get everything and more than what other men are doing in the industry.
Sonya Palmer:
Yes, a hundred percent. Bibi Fell was on LawHer, and you'll hear women say this all the time, I used to say, fake it till you make it. I'll pretend, I'll go on the golf course and da, da da, da da. And Bibi said, "No, be yourself. Be authentic." And I think that resonated so much. And I do think more women are taking that advice.
Because in by being themselves and by being authentic, there's a value there. They don't have to pretend to be like the men. They have their own unique value just like men do. And I think that's definitely ... and I do think, again, the pandemic is what was once local is now global. And you have so many more options for the people that you want to work with, that sort of ... those stereotypes are less prominent or less powerful than they used to be. And people want options. If I'm a mom who's been injured, I might want to talk to a mom. The pandemic really opened up all those channels, we went online, we realized there's a world way beyond our local communities.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, absolutely. And there are a lot of lawyers listening to the show, many of whom are a solo small firm, and there's some big firm folks, individuals. Everybody's motivated to grow that, they wouldn't be listening to the show if they weren't. But I know that there's some confusion between business development, marketing, branding, and where to spend the money. Because SEO isn't for everybody, pay-per clicks and everybody, social media should be for most people, but maybe isn't. So where should lawyers that want to build their law practice or their firm, where should they start thinking about where to invest time and energy and money into marketing?
Sonya Palmer:
Wherever they feel comfortable. I think the brand will develop. I think a lot of attorneys when they're starting get really focused on their logo and their brand and what's it say? And I think you got to start somewhere. But content is king, it always has been, it always will be. It's just changing.
So I think if you're an attorney, you really like to write, write blogs, write articles, write news, write whatever you can. If you're comfortable in front of a camera, hire a videographer, follow you around. Just create that kind of content. A podcast is a great way to create content. Either start your own or find someone that can get you on those podcasts. Generate that content any way that you can. You can put that on your website, you can put that on your social and it compounds.
You have that content forever. Yeah, it might need updated, there might be some evergreen stuff that you have to pluck out. But it only multiplies. And I think that if people go, "I don't want to go on TikTok, I don't want to be on camera." That's fine, you don't have to. It's effective, but you can write really great articles that Google will pick up. You can go and talk on Reddit off of your expertise. So whatever you really feel like your strength is, start there. And then hire people to fill those gaps in to do the stuff that's sort of trending or popular, producing the highest ROI.
Steve Fretzin:
Right. And there's a lot of do it yourself stuff, especially with ChatGPT. I mean, I was talking to a client yesterday, he's in the divorce space and we're like, "Where do we get started?" I'm like, take what are the top 10 issues that you see every day, what are the top 10 questions that you get as a family law attorney? Put them into ChatGPT, it's going to give you 10 answers, make sure they're right. And then each of those points could be made into a post. So you've got 10 posts, 10 weeks with doing what? That took five minutes. And is that going to be the same as writing original content or putting yourself on camera? No, it's not the same. But sometimes we just need to get started and get the car rolling and then you can start speeding up.
Sonya Palmer:
Absolutely. I think for as much talk as AI and ChatGPT gets, I actually think it's being underutilized.
Steve Fretzin:
Well, yeah, for sure, it's being underutilized. And there's a lot of fear around new and there's a lot of fear around is it going to take what I'm saying and expose me? Or is it going to be picked up ... is Google picking up articles that are being generated by AI and not giving them the same attention or traction? It's like if my teenager decides to use ChatGPT to write his paper, he's going to get found out at school and he's going to get in trouble. So I think people are nervous about using new technology like this.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, absolutely. And I do think there are dangers within AI, don't get me wrong. I worry more about privacy protection than anything else. Versus it taking jobs of creators or artists or something like that. You have to do your due diligence, especially within a legal field to make sure that what it is saying is accurate. But if you talk to ChatGPT the way you might a coach or something, and you use it to develop the prompt, "Hey, I had a case, this is what happened. This is what the client was kind of telling me, this is what I want the goal to be." Things like that can spark inspiration and you just take what it gives you and put it back in. I think eventually you can get something that's unique.
Steve Fretzin:
You just have to refine it. That's the thing people don't realize. You put in a prompt, it's going to give you something good. Then you say, "Hey, do this again but." And then add what you want, my voice, or you want it done for small firms, not mid-market or whatever it might be that you want to temper it. And it just keeps pumping better and better and better information, that you can then copy and paste and utilize how you see fit. But it's kind of a no-brainer.
But again, what's nice about social media from a marketing perspective, it's really leveled the playing field where it used to just be the big firm and the big money people could do something and you couldn't. And now I think if you can get into it and whether you delegate or do it yourself, you can get a lot more traction without a big budget.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, Sarah Williams called it the great equalizer. And I think that was a perfect definition for it.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah. And I said recently, I wrote an article for Above the Law, and it's like you're either in the game or you're sitting on the sidelines. Either way, you make a choice of what you want to do, and it's not complicated to learn. Find me, find a friend, someone can help you get ... half an hour, get comfortable enough to use it on a regular basis.
Sonya Palmer:
Absolutely. Ignore the bells and whistles for now. Just start somewhere. Just do something.
Steve Fretzin:
With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic and cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings.io today.
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what's the Rainmaker's Roundtable? Well, I tell them, this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you're a managing partner who's looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America's top rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin.com, and apply for membership today.
So I've got an angle I want to take this conversation, it's a little different than where we've been. It's around people. You're dealing with a lot of people, you're delegating your scale. We're talking about scaling from a one person bringing in their first associate to the amount of work that's being pumped at lawyers right now in the US and their inability to get it done. Because work isn't being pushed down, it's actually being pushed up in some instances. Because they can't find talent. So what are some things that you have seen in your time working in legal to develop talent and help scale talent, scale people? However we want to look at that.
Sonya Palmer:
You have to think about hiring way earlier than you think that you need to. Once you feel the need to have people, it's too late. I think the first thing any firm agency business is what is your hiring process? Who's going to own that? Who's going to do that? Most of the time in the early days, it's going to be the owner. I think that's great.
Having that process of how you're going to find talent, hire them, retain them, and then termination process, as well. So often I think attorneys and leaders in the early stages of business is they hold onto people way too long. And just having those processes in place will take the feeling, will take the emotion out of it. And that will significantly help scale. And then I think with leaders having that vision, what are your actual core values? Not the pre things you want to post on the website, but what do you live by? Establish that stuff. You can change it, right? It's going to evolve. But establish that, hire the people who are going to live by that the same way that you are. Use those to find those people. And then, yeah, let people do their jobs. Get people that you trust, paint that picture for them and then send them on their way.
Steve Fretzin:
But do you have an example of either a hiring or an onboarding process or element of a process that you do, that you recommend?
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, we do one-way video interviews. So if someone applies, we immediately send them three to five questions that they answer on camera just like this. It's just them. The questions are hard. They're pretty generic, to be honest. Hey, what do you like? Walk us through your resume. But I have found it's a very powerful check because this… And if they will do it, they really want to work here. They're going to, all right, I'm going to put myself out ... remove myself from a comfort zone and I'm going to talk to this camera for 10 minutes. And just that sort of gumption is enough for me probably then to interview them. If they don't make a fool of themselves and that one way, just that they did it, that they want to work at Rankings. And we've been doing it for years, and it has helped too.
It's nice as a recruiting tool too, because I can send it to Chris, he can provide feedback and you don't have people in interviews and meetings all the time. And then we go back, oh, hey, we need to hire for this position. And we're thinking, oh, remember that person? And we can pull their video interview up and show it to the new parties, the new hiring managers. It's something that we've kept for a long time, it's worked really, really well for us.
Steve Fretzin:
Okay. And then before you actually make a hire, do you have them do any kind of ... like, let's say their interview, some people interview well, right. And some people interview well, and they're just good at that piece, but they're not necessarily great at their job. Do you give them a project to do or anything to kind of test the waters before you pull the trigger?
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, and we typically pay them for it too.
Steve Fretzin:
Okay.
Sonya Palmer:
So enter into some sort of pilot or freelance something to test them. Writers is probably where this is the most applicable. When you're going to write at Rankings, we're looking for very qualified individuals. And so we put them through a pretty rigorous, we need three to five samples, but we pay them for it.
Steve Fretzin:
I love that. But then you can test them out so it comes back and it's absolute trash, you know, wow, we just saved ourselves from this. And I think for lawyers too, giving a lawyer something to do, to work on a brief, to take something and demonstrate that they can execute. It comes back and it's loaded with grammatical errors or it's just not what you had asked for, that's going to save you from a hire that could have been an absolute disaster. So I think there's so many things to protect yourself, to make a good hire, because you have to do it quickly. It's like quick to hire, slow to fire. Low to hire, quick to fire, sorry, rewind. And so having a good process for the hiring.
Then how about onboarding and helping to train? Because I think what happens in other instances, you do a great job on the hire and then you go, "There's your desk, there's your phone. We'll start throwing work your way." And they're like ... the head explode visual.
Sonya Palmer:
Yep. 30, 60, 90. Every person that comes onto the team has a 30, 60, 90 day ramp. We usually allow them to influence it. So we will have a standard for whatever the position is, a specialist, manager, director, what does their first 30 days look like? 60, 90. But we allow ... like, what do you think your 30, 60, 90 should be? And that will tell us a lot about the individual that we're working with. And I think everyone ... I don't know that we state this, maybe we need to more. But if you get to end of that 90 days and it's not, we're going part ways, right? There's no use in sort of dragging that out. I don't know that's ever happened, usually everybody exceeds expectations.
But yes, have some type of ramp. Even if it's just like a generic, understand our communication software, know where ... just a very simple basic thing that you can add, super important those KPIs too, having those established, an idea of what they're going to look like for different roles within a firm, also extremely important. You can measure that as you grow and you don't talk to so-and-so every day. You can go and look and see they're on the right track.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah. I know I had asked you in the off interview about some challenges you had and the first time you fired someone, it sounds like it didn't go so great. But I mean, I'd love to hear what that experience was. And then also, how your company does it now and what you could teach lawyers about removing someone that isn't really a fit.
Sonya Palmer:
Terrible.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah.
Sonya Palmer:
It was hard, but it's not-
Steve Fretzin:
It isn't easy and fun?
Sonya Palmer:
It's not any easy now, I've never relished it.
Steve Fretzin:
No, no.
Sonya Palmer:
I used to believe that everyone could be rehabilitated. And not long into being a manager and being a leader, I realized that that was not true. I think for me, an underperforming employee is a liability in a lot of different ways, especially to small firms. And it's not just that they are underperforming. They're stealing from the company, they're stealing from you. They are robbing the good employees around them. Because they're the ones that are picking up the slack. It's the people that are now given 110, 120, 150% because someone's not showing up, and that made it much easier on their behalf. This person's got to go and that's that.
Steve Fretzin:
What's the exit on that? I mean, the brief conversation, how is that set up so that it's ... because it's hurting people around them, it's hurting the business. Lawyers, to your point, are dragging this out way too long because that person is doing some work and they don't want that work to fall on them, they don't have anybody lined up.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah. I always want to make room for personal things. People go through stuff that happens. Good performers are going to go through things. So I try to foster an environment where those good employees that are currently struggling can come to me and be like, "Hey, I'm struggling." Or, "I need to take the day, I need to take the week, and we're going to figure that out. Cool, we'll cover it. Two weeks PTO, you're gone. It's cool. It's great." To really try to work with good employees who are going through something, like that's different.
But then I'm going to go back to Kim Scott's book, I see it, I'm saying something. If there's a weird comment that happens in Slack or somebody's quality is dipped, I'm pulling them into a conversation, "Hey, what's going on?" I want to acknowledge it immediately. Both so that we can address it and flush it out and figure it out, but that they know I'm seeing it. And then we do have a formal process, it's a verbal warning, then there's a PIP, performance improvement plan. Usually 30 days. They don't succeed through that, we terminate.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah. And all expectations have been laid out.
Sonya Palmer:
Yes.
Steve Fretzin:
So it's not a surprise to anybody. And you're keeping an eye on them over the 30 to see, are they actually trying to achieve? Or are they just looking for a job at that point because they know the writing is on the wall. So you got to pay attention for the 30 days.
Sonya Palmer:
You don't want people to feel like a coconut can fall on their heads. You want them to see it coming miles and miles and miles away.
Steve Fretzin:
Well, and also, I mean maybe for law firms, it's a little different in the sense that if they're managing clients and there's things that you may have to get taken back to you because letting them go when they still have all these relationships or things going on, could be sticky too. So think about it in your own situation and take what you can from it. But everything you've shared, Sonya has been amazing. So thank you so much.
Let's roll on to now, this is going to be, we're calling this segment Shameless Promotion. But it's for a good cause everybody, because between Rankings.io and the LawHer podcast, there's a lot of value for you or for people you know. So let's talk about the PIM podcast first and then we can move on to the other.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, absolutely. So PIM is Chris Dreyer's podcast, and he focuses on personal injury marketing. I think marketing and PI is probably the most competitive. I think I've heard that car insurance is the only other term that's the most competitive. So if you can do marketing and PI, you can do anything.
Steve Fretzin:
Your flow from Progressive, right? There's only one thing.
Sonya Palmer:
And Chris is the best at it. He just has this amazing knack and understands the landscape and the industry so well. And he interviews a guest every week. We've had some really, really incredible guests, some really, really powerhouse attorneys. It's if you are wanting to grow your own business or be a part of a thriving firm, it is a must listen. So yeah, Chris is fun too, he's a great host.
Steve Fretzin:
Yes, he is. I've been on the show, it's always a hoot. And I've had him on mine, we always have a good time together. And then let's talk a little bit about Rankings.io And then the LawHer podcast.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, absolutely. So Rankings is the company that I ... it's my day job. I only moonlight as a podcast host.
Steve Fretzin:
Right, right.
Sonya Palmer:
But yeah, we are committed to growing personal injury law firms. We specialize in search engine marketing in the legal industry, trying to create cases and leads for lawyers. We are obsessive about it. And then, yeah, LawHer is the podcast that I host, is dedicated to women in the legal industry. Not just PI, but all aspects, all places. It is a unique journey that there's definitely a camaraderie within. And we feature women who are trying to grow, trying to manage, maintain life. We get to talk a lot more about business, about mindset, about families. Had some really, really, really good guests. And season three is coming out in February.
Steve Fretzin:
Nice, awesome. And I just also want to just give a quick plug to the Rainmakers Roundtable, the peer advisory groups that I'm running. Dan, if you're a managing partner, law firm leader, equity partner, doing a million plus, want to be surrounded by other successful attorneys to talk shop on a regular basis, you're going to want to check out my website, Fretzin.com, and learn more about that. Happy to have you audit or talk to me directly.
Thank you so much, Sonya. This has been a blast.
Sonya Palmer:
Thank you.
Steve Fretzin:
I knew it was. You're just such a consummate professional, between your podcast and the work you do at Rankings, I knew this was going to be great. And again, hopefully everybody got some great takeaways and things that are going to help them in their pursuit of excellence and growing a law practice. So thank you so much.
Sonya Palmer:
Yes, thank you.
Steve Fretzin:
Yeah, really my pleasure. And thank you everybody for spending time with Sonya and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. You guys have every opportunity in the world to grow and scale and live the best lawyer's life that you can. You just have to consider that you don't have to do it all yourself, right? There's people out there that can support you. There's books and other things that you can utilize to learn the skills that are going to get you to the next level. So be that lawyer, everybody, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, be safe, be well. Talk again soon.
Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.
Chris Dreyer:
So many insights of Steve and Sonya's conversation today. If you got value from this episode, especially around hiring other customer service, I'd really appreciate you sharing it with another firm owner who could benefit. You can find all the resources and tools mentioned in our show notes. If you need more actionable insights, pick up a copy of my new book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing from Good to Goat. You can find it on Amazon. All right everybody, thanks for investing time with us today. Keep pushing the boundaries, keep growing. We'll catch you next week.
