Ryan Stygar:
Do not let your practice area limit you.
Chris Dreyer:
Today's guest built a following of over a million people by doing something radically different, he stopped selling. Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where ambitious attorneys come to learn, implement, and get results. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, SEO agency of choice for elite personal injury law firms.
As a former firefighter turned employment lawyer, Ryan's built an incredible practice by educating instead of advertising, and his insights are pure gold for PI firms looking to stand out. What I love about this conversation is Ryan's raw honesty about his journey. He was actually rejected from 13 law schools before finding his path, and had to figure out marketing when he had a zero budget and zero followers. Now he's crushing it. Whether you're spending six figures on marketing or just getting started, you're about to learn why being real beats being polished. How to know which content actually converts, and why competing with big firms on their terms is a losing game. Let's dive in.
Ryan Stygar:
I call it the anti-sell. People don't like being sold to, but they love being educated. They love feeling like, "When I see this guy on my page, he's not trying to take anything from me, he's not willing to lie, and cheat, and steal, and do what ever it takes to get my signature on his retainer agreement. This is a guy who looks out for me." And here's the cool thing, Chris, I've built relationships with hundreds of thousands of these long time followers. There's people who've followed me since '21 who are still here. They don't have a case today, maybe they don't have one tomorrow. But I'll tell you what, if anything work-related happens in any of their family or even two degrees of separation out, I'm the first name they're going to talk about.
Chris Dreyer:
That's so different than the bottom of the funnel, the hard ask, like, "Hire me now." It's so accustomed in the legal profession, and it turns a lot of people off. Owning a firm is a second career for you, so let's take it back. Take me back to the former life as a firefighter and how that led to law school.
Ryan Stygar:
I was actually a firefighter for longer than I've been a lawyer still. On January 14th, 2025, I will celebrate an anniversary where I will have been a lawyer for one day longer than I've been a firefighter. So that was my first career if all I ever wanted, there's a lot to love about the profession, and I miss it dearly. I truly think about it every day. But I was going past my fourth year and I was at a fire, and I remember hiking up this hill with one of my captains at the time. And it was the saddest thing, Chris. I was walking up and I looked at him, and I just had this moment of clarity where I realized he is making about $30,000 more a year than I am, but he's doing the same job.
One of the hardest things about being a firefighter for me was I got a reputation in my family for being unreliable, for being a flake. And it's because I just couldn't control the fire season. I realized as a firefighter, as honorable and noble as the profession was and as much as I love it and miss it, limits your opportunities. Because I couldn't really control where I could go or what locations I could live in. So it was probably one of the hardest decisions I've made, but I'm confident now having started my practice, it was the right call.
Chris Dreyer:
How did you land on law school? You had all these options. Talk to me about that.
Ryan Stygar:
It's so easy to look at Attorney Ryan with all the followers, and the settlements, and the money, and think, "Oh, my God, this guy's just got it all figured out." I didn't. When I first left the fire service, I did not do great on the LSAT. I applied to 13 law schools, I got into zero. At that moment, Chris, I thought that I had irreversibly fucked my life up. I thought I had made the biggest, most horrible mistake and ruined my life. And for about a year and a half, two years, I drifted for a bit. I worked in an office, I sold coffee door to door, I worked for a landscaping company, I drove for Uber. Things got dark a bit there, but I applied again. And then at 27, 28 is when I got into Cal West, who offered me a scholarship. And that's when things started to turn around.
Chris Dreyer:
For many of the audience listening. They're maybe working for another firm, or they're in a bootstrap type of scenario where they're not getting private equity or VC funding. Talk to me about the early days that the low budget for marketing, kind of how it's progressed over time. I mean, you got over a million followers on TikTok these days, and a huge robust following. Talk me through some of maybe the milestones and the progression of your marketing.
Ryan Stygar:
Just to be clear about the early days, I didn't have any experience, I didn't have any followers yet, but I did have about $400. Things were not good. But here's the thing, you shouldn't shy away from being on a shoestring budget. You shouldn't let that deter you because scarcity breeds innovation. Here is what I decided to do, because I had been an avid consumer of social media for so many years. I knew what I liked and what I listened to, so what I wanted to do is be an educator.
I knew from being the working class person for so long, all the myths that I've heard in an office. I've worked in a blue collar environment, I've worked in an office, and I've heard all the why's that management and HR tells you. I had an opportunity to get on there and just say, "Hey, here's what happens if you work overtime and your boss says it wasn't approved, and may refuse to pay you." What do you do if your wife's about to give birth and you want to be there to see your child get born? How do you get the time off to do that? Because I'll tell you what, no one's going to give a shit in 20 years that you pulled overtime at the office and filed your TPS reports on time. But they will give a that you were there for your wife to see your child get born. That the priorities that I learned the hard way, early in fire, I don't even remember all the fires I went to, but I do remember each and every wedding I missed.
Now, what does that have to do with this? I try to spread, not just an awareness about people's rights, but also a message about having a healthy relationship with work. And one thing that I think has set my marketing aside, I'm not just, "Oh, these are your rights. Call us if they're violated." If you look at my page, you're never going to see a sell. You'll see one tile at the top of my grid that just says California's Labor Lawyer with a number on it. That way if someone comes to my page, they know who I am. But you'll never see one where I say, "Call this number. You may be entitled to compensation. We fight for you, blah, blah." I don't do that shit. I tell people what their rights are, and I share my opinions about our relationship with work.
Chris Dreyer:
Being an educator, being helpful, answering questions. How do you balance your content strategy? Is it all like being helpful? You've got one consumer type of in mind, like the person that's been wronged in the workplace? Or what goes into your strategy when you're creating your content calendar?
Ryan Stygar:
I'm just out here doing what feels right. Just being true to myself and being authentic, is working out pretty well for me. The big pushback I get from PI lawyers is, "Well, Ryan, your practice area is easy. Everyone has a job, so obviously your stuff is killing." I'm much smaller than Law By Mike. I am much smaller, much smaller than LegalEagle. And they do great, and they just talk about basic legal issues because those stories are interesting. Tell us what's going on in the Diddy case, tell us what's going on in the latest Musk lawsuit. There's always great stuff to talk about up there.
Remember, as far as the public is concerned, a lawyer is a lawyer. The same lawyer who can get you policy limits on a car accident, is the same lawyer who can do your divorce and get you out of a traffic ticket. That is the public perception of lawyers. So just sharing content you are interested in that has something to do with law, and fortunately for us, most things in life do. You're going to do great. Your practice area is not going to hold you back. It's not.
Chris Dreyer:
Look, I got to be honest, who didn't get sucked in on TikTok on the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard stuff? The Husband and Wife lawyers, I think they're in Arizona, they built a thriving TikTok following from following that court case. And I think they're PI attorneys, they're not dealing with that type of law.
Ryan Stygar:
Oh, yeah. Following interesting court cases like that is a really good strategy because again, remember, a lawyer is a lawyer. And believe it or not, Chris, you can look like a really trustworthy, really competent attorney that they will follow, just by explaining what's happening, just telling them what they're looking at. And they'll go, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't know that's how it worked. That's why that evidence didn't get in. That's why that defendant got 25 to life." Again, for the PI lawyers, if you walk away with this podcast with one thing, it's, "Do not let your practice area limit you." If you want the free marketing, if you want everything I have, you don't have to pay a marketing agency for it. Seriously, just point your phone at your face and talk about legal issues you find interesting.
Chris Dreyer:
We're a digital marketing company, we don't do social media. I've always found how do you outsource social media, the authenticity? The PI attorney that wants to break into this channel, maybe they've been doing TV, radio, search, and they want to get action on this. Where do you start?
Ryan Stygar:
When I started, man, I was desperate. I didn't have anything. That lack of anything was going to be a real problem really soon, I was running out of money. So I got on there and I just started making long videos explaining the law to people. And they bombed, they did terrible. Do you know why they did so bad, Chris? For anyone watching. I got a camera, I put on a mic, I put on a suit, I stood in front of my degree so everyone would know how important I was, and I gave a very, "In the state of California your sick leave is entitled too.”It was the most mind-numbingly boring shit anyone's ever heard, no one wants to listen to that.
But what happened was I figured out, "Okay, don't worry so much about looking like a lawyer, or what people think a lawyer should look like. People like people, and they will trust your competence if you show them you are competent. You don't have to wear the suit, and do the professional lighting, and have all the great edits. Your video can be a little grainy. It's okay. The lighting doesn't have to be perfect. You could be in a T-shirt. All they want to see is that you know what you're talking about, you care about them, you're trustworthy, and you're competent."
So then how do you show competence? Honestly, the videos where I show emotion, and get fired up, and drop an F-bomb here and there, those are the ones that tend to get seven-figure views, and thousands of shares and saves. And I get comments of people saying, "I want a lawyer who takes my cases personally as this guy." And so to answer your question, "Where do you start?" Ideally, you start with the principle of your firm. I like to joke that my law firm, I'm not the only lawyer there, we have a team. But the law firm is McDonald's and I'm the clown. And now we know that Ronald McDonald isn't necessarily back there making burgers, he's more of the vision for the enterprise there. I have great people that I get to work with who advance these cases. And then on your profile, just write, "Seriously injured, call this number. Seriously injured, fill out this link."
It's so much more simple than people think it is. I've done round tables and coaching sessions with people, and the number one thing that holds people back is, one, ego. You've been successful for so long, you settled a few big cases, you drive a nice car, you got a nice house. And the idea of sucking at something for even a minute, the idea of being a little humbled and not being great at something immediately, because you've been good at shit your whole life, holds people back. It's okay to fuck it up a little bit. It's okay. Release that ego. Give yourself permission to not be perfect at something. But the other thing that holds people back is overthinking it. Don't overthink it, "Oh, this isn't my practice area." No one cares.
Chris Dreyer:
Let's face it, being a great lawyer isn't enough to succeed. You need to generate consistent leads. Personal injury is the most saturated niche. Competition is fierce, and differentiation is everything. When the deck is stacked against you, you need a comprehensive resource to beat the competition.
My latest book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing, is your roadmap to consistent leads and exponential growth. It is a master class on marketing for personal injury firms. It's packed with actionable strategies on where to invest your marketing dollars for maximum impact. No more guesswork, no more wasted ad spend, just clear proven methods to transform your firm from good to GOAT. Grab your copy of Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing on Amazon. Link is in the show notes.
What's your thoughts on the organic and paid? Do you pump the pieces that take off, like the one that starts, that resonate with people? Or is it, this day if you don't make great content, you said the boring continent, it's just going to bomb. Or is there maybe a shortcut to start getting some following, or is that in organic growth? Is that the grifters coming for a little bit? What's your thoughts on combining paid there?
Ryan Stygar:
I will say, "Thank god for Lina Khan and the FTC." She's an animal. I love her. It's illegal to buy fake followers now, as it should have been for a long time. You don't need a million followers for people to believe that you're a great lawyer who they trust with their case. In fact, if you have too many followers and you're too polished, you're just going to look like another corporate firm, and they don't really know who you are. As for organic versus paid, I've used paid in the past. I don't really use it right now. It's rare that I use it. I might use it if I know that there's a case or a potential class action out there that I really want, and I'm trying to reach a specific audience. I kind of use it as like an airstrike, because you can do those posts where it's like, "Okay, I'm trying to hit people this age group in these geographic regions."
Look at shares and saves. A save means, "This was so valuable, I would like to come back to this at some point." A share means, "This was so valuable that I want other people to see it." You just found yourself a little disciple there. You have a whole team of salespeople that are working for you for free at that point. So if you see lots of saves and shares on that thing, then yeah, it's time to maybe consider boosting your post. Especially in the beginning if you're trying to shorten the amount of time it takes to build a following. If you're seeing a lot of saves and shares, and your immediate goal is, "Hey, I just want to get a good core audience working with me." Very valid goal, I get that. Then go from the posts that are already doing well. And again, doing well means saves and shares, not necessarily views.
Chris Dreyer:
That earned media, I think at least in the PI space, there's not a ton of firms that do it exceptionally well. They've got the owned media, they got the paid. You look at the billboards and it's, "Injured?" Question mark. And it's so generic, so bland. And then when you see John Morgan with his shirt off, or the "Size Matters," or the graffiti, that's the share when the media picks it up. Right? And he's getting additional distribution. So, talk to me about the earned media side.
Ryan Stygar:
Again, a lot of people get held back, so they overthink it. I got to tell you, the average human being probably hasn't even heard of Morgan & Morgan. I know that's weird for us because it's our practice area. They'd be like, "What are you talking about? They're like the Google of PI." It's like, yeah, of PI. The average person doesn't know or care. And there's so many PI billboards out there, that frankly to the average person, they all blend together. They're just invisible. It's white noise at this point. If you put five older white guys in a lineup and told me to coin out which of these is Morgan and which of these is Morgan? It's a crapshoot. I don't even know what the guy looks like. He's probably a super sweet guy, I don't want to knock him or anything. The point is, I don't think he's built a personal brand. Nothing I resonate with at least, and I'm probably not alone.
And what does that tell us? Again, I hope no one takes that as this dig at him, he's clearly built a really big, successful firm, and he deserves it. A lot of credit for that. But in this very narrow topic we're talking about, which is building trust and free marketing, and building a brand and a community, I don't think he's got a strategy that you should try to emulate. Unless you want to spend a ton of money and get beat by him anyway. Because here's the truth, you can't compete with that guy in SEO. You can't compete with that guy in traditional media podcasting. He's going to kick your.
I was in a panel and people were asking me, how do I compete with these guys? And the answer I said was, "That's like asking me how to beat Mike Tyson at boxing. You're not going to. So if you're going to fight Mike Tyson, challenge him to pickleball, or chess, or Scrabble, something you have a fighting chance at. Don't fight hopeless battles, there's no honor in that."
Chris Dreyer:
Oh, that's such an amazing analogy. That's incredible. I love the Mike Tyson, I can visually see him playing pickleball too.
Ryan Stygar:
I just know that I have less chance of dying if I played pickleball with him.
Chris Dreyer:
What small change has had the biggest positive impact on your firm?
Ryan Stygar:
Part of the reason I think I've done so well, Chris, is, "What you see is what you get." One of the biggest compliments I get is people tell me that when they meet me in person, I'm exactly what they expected to, from online. Now, why does that matter? I preach a lot about work-life balance, being less available, saying no more often. Because here's the deal, your energy, it's a regenerative resource. You can always regenerate more energy, but it's like a battery, it drains. And there's only so much energy you can give every day.
I've willfully and intentionally made less money, because I realized that the energy and the version of myself I bring to those things I've decided to give my energy to, really, really matters. It's probably not popular advice, because it goes against everything we're taught growing up, but that's really what I believe. Having been a workaholic, having been a blue collar guy, a white collar guy, the business owner who stayed up until 1:00 AM and woke up early the next day, I tried that the first part of my firm. I'm doing better now by taking care of myself.
Chris Dreyer:
What an incredible conversation with Ryan. For those of you taking notes, remember his big three. Educate, don't sell, authenticity beats polish, and please stop trying to outbox Mike Dyson, challenge him to pickleball instead.
If he got value from this episode, I need you to do two things. First, go follow Ryan. His handle will be in the show notes, and trust me, his content is pure gold for anyone running a law firm. Second, share this episode with another firm owner who needs to hear this message. We're all about lifting the whole industry up. And hey, if you're thinking about implementing any of what Ryan talked about, shoot me a DM. I'd love to hear what resonated with you and what you're planning to try.
If you need more actionable insights, pick up a copy of my new book, Personal Injury Lawyer Marketing: From Good to GOAT, found on Amazon. All right everybody, thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
