John Demas:
We put the client's best interest first, no exception. Ifyou live by those words, then the notion of, "Oh, I have to settle casesbecause I need the money to pay my cash flow," or if I need the cashflowto pay my expenses, it goes out the window.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host,Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of rankings.io, the legal marketing company the best firms hire when they want the rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver On this show I've been fortunate enough to learn from some of the best minds in PI, and now we're bringing them together in one place at the first ever PIM conference. PIMCon is coming to Scottsdale this September. We're laser focused on one thing, getting more leads. And I'm not talking about just any leads, but quality leads that actually turn into cases. That's it. That's our entire focus. It's not just theory. We're talking about actionable strategies that have been tried and tested by the best in thebusiness. If you're looking at conquer personal injury marketing and go fromgood to GOAT, PIMCon is where you need to be.
We've gathered the top PI marketing experts to share their secrets, and believe me, this is cutting edge stuff you won't find anywhere else. Don't miss out on another potential client. Grab your ticket to PIMCon now and get ready to supercharge your practice. Your future self will thank you. Go to pimcon.org. All right, let's dive in. My guest today, John Demas, one of California's top plaintiff attorneys with over 25 years of experience,John's track record lives up to his core values. Without exception, put the client first. John's not your average settle and run lawyer. We're talking multimillion dollar verdicts. Including a $10.5 million jury award, the largest ever in Sacramento County for a bicycle collision.
What sets John apart? While many attorneys prioritize quick settlements, he's known for his readiness to step into the courtroom.This approach has not only won him cases, but also the respect of his peers.He's been named among the top 100 attorneys for northern California and holds the coveted spot in the American Board of Trial Advocates. In this episode,John shares his insights on building a practice that consistently handles high value, complex cases, maintaining a client-focused approach while scaling a successful firm, leveraging digital strategies including smart domain choices to stand out in a crowded market. Here's John Demas, founder at Demas LawGroup.
John Demas:
I'm a Greek immigrant. I was actually born in Greece. My parents are Greeks that immigrated here with really no education, and one ofthe things they stressed is obviously get educated, but they wanted me to get into a profession that I can actually work in Greece, where I can take, in the event that I wanted to move over there and work. So they were pushing me to goto dental school. And then I went to college and took organic chemistry and quickly realized that dental school was not in my future. And then I took a constitutional law class and fell in love with that. Had a mentor who was a lawyer and a professor at my college, and then I went off to law school.
Chris Dreyer:
That's amazing, amazing. Did you know that personal injury law was it? Tell me about that background. Did you consider criminal defense, other areas? Tell me about that.
John Demas:
When I got out of law school, I went to work for a firm, a small firm here in town, an old school general practice firm, and I was doing a lot of work for one of our clients, which was a church. And so I did that for about a year and then got laid off. But at that firm there was one lawyer who was doing PI work. And I didn't really get an opportunity to work on a lot of plaintiff's cases. I was doing mostly the defense work for the church, but planted a seed that this is an area that I wanted to get into for sure. And then less than a year out of law school, I opened up my practice on my own with a partner. Actually, we shared an office at an executive suite building, paid$500 a month, two lawyers in one office, and just said, "Hey, we're open for business." We took pretty much everything that we could, Chris, for a couple of years, frankly.
Chris Dreyer:
What was your nice like, "Oh, this is a good case.This gives us a little ammo for the advertising"?
John Demas:
I remember we had our first $100,000 case that we settled.We went and celebrated with a steak dinner because it was a $33,000 fee, and we could never imagine that we would make that kind of money on one case. But we quickly saw that, both of us, that this was the direction that we wanted to go for sure.
Chris Dreyer:
Has the firm always been a very trial forward firm? You had the highest settlement amount for the bicycle accident in Sacramento, over$10 million, and you've had some big numbers. Has it been that focus out of the gate, or has it evolved over time?
John Demas:
Well, it's definitely evolved. So my story really started, as I indicated, with a partner, and then I had another partner for about 15 orso years. I decided to open up my current firm where I'm the principal owner a little over 10 years ago. And over the course of the years, obviously my practice really evolved to become a real trial attorney. That's probably 15+ orso years ago, I made a dedicated decision to really become the best trial attorney that I could be. And I knew that if I started trying cases, that that could only help my practice. So yeah, since I started my own firm a little over10 years ago, I started with one lawyer and now we're up to seven lawyers currently.
Chris Dreyer:
I want to dig in more into some of the trial things andyour thoughts on it, because you really stand out and I love the educationalcontent you're putting out on the web. It looks like from the outside, it lookslike a lot of your marketing is on the digital side, the digital marketingside. What's your approach and just thoughts on marketing to originate cases?
John Demas:
I'm going to focus just on the last 10 or 12 years sinceI've had my own practice. Has really been to get the best possible results thatwe can on our cases, and really do the work on our cases and let that becomethe engine of our growth. So when you start with, what's in the best interestof the client and how can we get the best possible result for that particular client in that case, if that means we settle the case, then we settle. If itmeans we've got to go to trial, then we've got to go to trial. Then you know that on every individual case you're doing the best that you can. From thereyou build on, "Okay, how can I now grow my business model?"Essentially, knowing and understanding that nothing's more important than our client's best interest.
From there we have, because we, I think, are frankly oneof the few firms that does that, that really pushes to get the best result thatwe can, then I can approach other lawyers, which I've done, other local attorneys, other attorneys around the state, and say, "Hey, we can helpyou with some cases." So I do get a lot of referrals from other lawyersthat associate us in to try to get those results, as I indicated. Our client sare a huge source of referrals, because again, if we always prioritize theclients, and one of the things too, Chris, that I think a lot of PI attorneyshave to understand is that clients don't really have a point of reference on whether that result that you got on their case was necessarily a great result.They don't know that. You can say, "Hey, I got you a half a million dollar settlement," and they might be happy with the number, they might bepleased with the settlement, but do they have a point of reference that it's agreat settlement?
Not necessarily. They don't really know. So you tell themit's a great settlement. Obviously you develop a trust and they can appreciatethat you're being honest with them, but they don't really know. So what thatmeans then from a referral standpoint is, the number that you get them in thatparticular case doesn't mean that that particular client is the one who's goingto be a good referral source. It's the client that has that relationship withyou, that trust with you, that experience with the office, because the lawyercan't do everything and won't always be the point of contact. They have to havethat experience and the relationship with your staff and with everybody in theoffice so they can then become an ambassador and refer cases. Some of the bestreferrals we've gotten from our clients come from clients who have had not verylarge cases. Cases where we've gotten tremendous results or great verdicts,that client, that doesn't mean that client is necessarily going to be a greatreferral source.
Chris Dreyer:
A domain name strategy is a crucial aspect of digitalmarketing that many attorneys overlook. John's firm has a powerful domain name,and I wanted to know the story behind it. John explains the strategic thinkingthat went into this digital asset.
John Demas:
When we first got going in the PI direction, originally westarted as advertising in the Yellow Pages, that's how long I've been doingthis. But then as things evolved, I saw quickly that the Yellow Pages were adinosaur and dying. So yeah, we picked up that domain very early on.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, wonderful, wonderful. And I think ConsultWebs isdoing great with your SEO. You're ranking number one for "Sacramentobicycle accident lawyer." I was like, "Well, you got this fantasticbicycle accident result. I wonder if that case was originated fromGoogle." A couple things too, when you think of it, so you said the peerreferrals and the client referrals. It's interesting, because most people thinkof just the front end, just marketing to prospective. But you're marketing tothe existing and former very effectively.
John Demas:
Yeah. To touch on that, Chris, too, going back to theclient experience, one of the things that we do is we're not a high volumeshop. We don't advertise on billboards or TV, so that's not my model. Though wehave big size firm for Sacramento, we actually have more lawyers here in my firmthan most of the heavy advertisers because the work that we do tends to be morelitigation oriented and needs more attorney horsepower. But getting back tothis issue with the client experience, that's really what we call it, is aclient experience. And because we don't have to take a lot of cases and ourmodel is small, or our model is such that we can be really selective with thecases that we take, we try to really focus on the client experience from theirperspective, from the time they call to the end.
So when a client calls, and we filter that call because weonly take probably two or three cases a week, but when we filter that call,we're going to, and it's a call that looks like we want, we're going to getthat client on with a lawyer as soon as they call, right away. So from thebeginning, we're setting that stage where the lawyer has to be involved and theclient is experiencing something different. Because most people have, mostfirms have large intake type departments and they don't even talk to a lawyer.And we get a lot of cases from people who fire their lawyers because they'venever talked to them, or once in a while they might get a call from them. Soit's particularly important for that client experience, the entire interactionwith the office, for referrals, as you indicated, but really, also as youpointed out, for reviews. Because I do think that those reviews are a stampfrom real clients that they've experienced hopefully everything that we'rehoping for them to experience, which is great representation, aggressiverepresentation with tremendous service.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, and I would say that's significantly different thanthe large volume, where you may have a case manager that has literally 200clients, you just can't go deep other than what the CRM's telling you to givethem as an update and just have a real relationship. There's a lot of differentmodels. There's the front end model that's basically a marketing company that'ssending out referrals. You've got the large volume settlement, you've got theexpert litigators like yourself that really value customer service. Could youexplain to me, like for intake, sometimes you have this whole dedicated fullintake and intake professionals. How does your intake work and how do you decidewhich cases to pick, and how do you not have waste and still monetize maybe thelower value cases?
John Demas:
Yeah, so great question, and that's a constant challenge.Because you want to sign up enough cases where, we know out of the gate thatsome cases or a good chunk of cases should and will settle pre-lit. And so whatwe're really trying to do is filter the beginning, and then more importantly,within 30 days of the signup for us on what happens to that case. So we have amotto of, "The right lawyer on the right case." So we have veryexperienced litigators and some not so much, and we have people that can handlepre-lit cases with attorney supervision, and we have lawyers that only handlevery few cases in litigation. So we do settle cases in pre-lit, but what we tryto do is really focus on that first 30 days and find out as much as we can inthat first 30 days to see where that case is going to land.
Is it going to land with myself? Is it going to land withone of my more senior litigation attorneys? So we dig into the police report,we dig into policy limit searches, we dig into the medical symptoms, dependingon where it is and where they are in their treatment. And really try to, atthat point, in that 30-day mark, as best we can, say, "Okay, this case islikely to be one that there's a chance it could settle pre-lit, depending onthe limits." Or, "We're just going to file on this right away,"within that 30-day time period.
Chris Dreyer:
How do you know when the insurance company is going to goto bat and fight you? Are there signs? It's like, "This one they'reprobably going to settle just because, look, it's clear this is a loser forthem"? Or how do you make those decisions? Because obviously cash flow isimplicated here in terms of when you're going to get money and how much you'regoing to invest.
John Demas:
Yeah, so what we're looking at obviously is liability andthe damages and insurance, those three, the three-legged stool. And then makingan educated, essentially we're looking at every single case and saying, basedon the experience that we have, on which direction this thing is likely to go.You brought something up that I think is very important, this whole notion ofcash flow and wanting and needing to settle cases. And I think just from aphilosophical standpoint, I'm going to get back to our mission statement, whichis, we put the client's best interest first, no exception. If you live by thosewords, then the notion of, "Oh, I have to settle cases because I need themoney to pay my cash flow," or if I need the cashflow to pay my expenses,it goes out the window.
Chris Dreyer:
Wow, that's a killer statement. They're a customer,they're not a client, they're a thing, they're a widget. Versus you, you're aclient.
John Demas:
Yeah, these are real people who are going through sometraumatic, bad events. Something bad happened to them when they call us. And asPI attorneys, I think we lose sight of the fact that these are individuals whoare suffering through something that happened to them by no choice of theirown, most of the time. Usually they're not at fault. And we're now entrusted todo the best that we can for them. And then we have lawyers who say, "Well,I've got to settle their case because we've got all this overhead that we haveto pay." It's just, there's competing interests here, right? And once youtake that off of the table, it really frees you, and that's what it's done forus. And once you take that pressure off, because we have had the success withthe verdicts that we've had and the settlements, frankly, but mostly theverdicts, because verdicts do drive settlements, and we can talk about that.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, no, I wanted to dig into that, because your modelis, when they're looking at the colossus data, your averages are going to beway higher, and your numbers. So have you seen a real impact of that from thestart?
John Demas:
Oh, huge, huge. And frankly, some younger lawyers, I thinksome get that, and I've seen some young hungry, aggressive attorneys that wantto try cases, and I think that's great because that's what I did. Look, I lostmy first three trials and I said, "That's okay, because I'm just going tokeep trying cases until I get that $10 million verdict," which I got. WhatI've noticed, it's not just one, you have to get a lot more than thatobviously. But what I've seen is especially in the last, I'd say five to 10years or so, the last few years for sure, verdicts have legs, verdicts last.But you've got to keep getting in there and banging away, because I know justbased on the settlements that we get on our cases, from hearing the numbersfrom other lawyers, from listening to mediators about what our cases settle forand what other attorneys' cases settle for, I know we're getting top dollar onour cases. I know for a fact.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible, and I've always wondered that. Becauseif you're taking this, you're trying to do a bunch of cases, you're going tohave the low numbers mixed in with the high, and it's going to paint adifferent picture. And I've wondered that just due to the setup. Since yourcase selection criteria is a little bit higher and you're looking at these andyou're more selective, do the partners that you pick, without naming thepartners or whoever they are, do they take the low volume and then do theyreciprocate and then bring you in on co-counsel for some of the big ones? Like,"Hey, we need to litigate this"? Is that the setup that you have,mutually beneficial?
John Demas:
Exactly. So we do refer out probably 95% of the intakesthat we screen, and with the understanding that if one of those cases that werefer out to our referring group of lawyers somehow turns into a good case or abetter case, that referring attorney then will bring us back in to litigate thecase and push it, absolutely.
Chris Dreyer:
Wonderful, wonderful. One case, I was just wondering ifyou could tell that, just give me the case study, the story on thatseven-figure, or actually eight-figure bicycle accident case. Just start tofinish, how did you get it? Just give me the 80/20. On this case I would justlove to hear that story. I find these very interesting.
John Demas:
Yeah, yeah. So that was a case that was referred actuallyby a former client, great couple that was riding a tandem bike on the biketrail. We have a really long bike trail here that abuts the Sacramento River,very popular trail for cyclists and joggers. And our couple, our clients wereon a tandem bike. And they were on the bike trail in the evening, and as theyapproached a section of the bike trail, there was a young couple on a date, andthe couple was walking in the middle of the bike trail. And the bike trail hassigns that say you're supposed to walk to see the bicycles coming at you, butthis couple was walking in the middle. They were a 17 and 16-year-old girl,minors at the time. Our clients were coming up behind them, and they rang thebell on their tandem bike and the couple split open to essentially allow thebike to go through.
And as the bike was going through, the girl from one sidecrossed right in front of them and the bicyclists hit the girl, went down, andthe woman, our client in the back of the tandem bike, had head injury, atraumatic brain injury. So we sued the two young people. Challenging case,very, very tough case. The homeowner's policy of the girl tendered theirpolicy. It was like $300,000, not a ton, but the homeowner's policy of the boywho, frankly, the argument was, he didn't do anything wrong because he wasactually walking where he should have been and he had no liability.
And so we sued them both under the theory that the youngboy was the one who took this girl there. So he knew the bike trail, he knewthe rules, he knew they shouldn't have been walking where they were walking.He's the one who called her over at the last second because she went on thewrong side of the bike trail. So we really tried to put all the liability onhim, because the insurance company hadn't offered us any money, even though wemade policy limits demand to settle the case. And yeah, the case went to trial,they found fault on both of them, the majority on the girl, as they shouldhave, but we'd already essentially accepted the policy limits from the girl,and then ended up getting a good chunk of fault assigned to the guy, collecteda significant amount well, well above the policy limits.
Chris Dreyer:
Thank you for sharing that. That's super interesting.
John Demas:
Tough case. Tough case.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, tough case, wonderful story on litigating that.Yeah, so it's just interesting, so many different models. The counter that Ihave said on this podcast is, if you're doing the digital game and you'retrying to get Google reviews and play the local services ads game, the downsideof a litigating firm is you just don't have as many cases. You don't have asmany swings to get those reviews, but in your case I guess the rebuttal to thatis, yeah, but if you give them superior client service, then maybe instead ofgetting one out of 10, you get nine out of 10 to leave you a review.
John Demas:
And look, we don't have a high volume, but we do have afairly robust practice, which we do settle cases in pre-litigation. I don'twant to give you the impression that every single case gets litigated.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, yeah.
John Demas:
But with the model that we have, lawyers in our firm haveboth pre-lit and litigation files. And again, it gets to, how do you get thereviews, how do you establish that relationship? I just think you have to havethe lawyers involved, but obviously the rest of the team plays a critical rolein getting the reviews. A critical role, because oftentimes they're the onesestablishing that relationship, that bond with the clients.
Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, it makes me think of someone asking, "What ismarketing?" Well, everything is marketing, and what is client service?Everything is client service. John, this has been amazing. One final question.Where can our audience go to learn more about you and the firm and just connectwith you?
John Demas:
Yeah, sure. So our website, as you mentioned, isinjury-attorneys.com or demaslawgroup.com. Reach out directly to me, just sendme an email at J and D, it's my initials, @demaslawgroup.com, and happy tohelp.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to John for coming on the show. We had somuch to share today. Let's hit the takeaways. Live your values withoutexception. Putting the client first is not just a tagline for John. It drivesevery aspect of his practice, from case selection to settlement decisions. Byprioritizing client outcomes over short-term financial gains, his firm hasbuilt a reputation for excellence. For a low volume firm, this approach candifferentiate your firm in a crowded market and lead to higher clientsatisfaction, better reviews, and more referrals.
John Demas:
We put the client's best interest first, no exception. Ifyou live by those words, then the notion of, "Oh, I have to settle casesbecause I need the money to pay my cash flow," or I need the cash flow topay my expenses, it goes out the window.
Chris Dreyer:
Be picky. Once you've established your practice, begin toniche down, implement a rigorous case evaluation process. This can help youfocus on high value cases that align with your firm's strengths and resources.John focuses on thorough evaluation within the first 30 days to determine thebest approach to each case. This allows them to allocate resources effectivelyand maximize outcomes.
John Demas:
Right lawyer on the right case. What we try to do isreally focus on that first 30 days and find out as much as we can. We dig intothe police report, we dig into policy limit searches, we dig into the medicalsymptoms, depending on where they are in their treatment, and really try to, atthat point, in that 30-day mark, as best we can, say, "Okay, this case islikely to be settled pre-lit," within that 30-day time period.
Chris Dreyer:
Build your reputation. Invest in developing your trialskills and building a track record of successful verdicts. Publicize your trialwins and use them as leverage in negotiations. Consider partnering with otherfirms to take on high profile cases. John's commitment to trying cases andsecuring verdicts has elevated his firm's reputation and negotiating power.This approach has led to higher settlements across the board, even for casesthat don't go to trial,
John Demas:
Verdicts have legs, verdicts last. But you've got to keepgetting in there and banging away, because I know just based on the settlementsthat we get on our cases, I know we're getting top dollar on our cases. I knowfor a fact.
Chris Dreyer:
For more information about John, check out the show notes.Before you go, do me a solid and smash that follow button, subscribe. Don'tmiss the next episode of Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer,founder and CEO of rankings.io. All right, everybody, thanks for hanging out.See you next time. I'm out.
