Bill Pintas:
You're never going to get all the cases. So rather than your competitor getting them all, do your own marketing and come to us, and let us do it as well.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. Each week we examine how the best in legal industry go from good to GOAT. I'm Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the legal marketing company the best firms hire when they want the rankings, trafficking cases, other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. Here at PIM, we don't just talk about it, we are about it. If you're ready to dominate the personal injury arena and champion your firm, join me at PIM Con, the first ever official PIM Conference. Conquer marketing, network with titans, celebrate excellence and go for the gold this September in Scottsdale at the five star Venetian Resort. Secure your place among the elite. Reserve your all access pass into the winner's circle at pimcon.org where we take you from good to GOAT. All right, let's get on with the show.
Decades ago, Bill Pintas set out to build his law practice. Well began as late night TV ads has grown into a juggernaut partnership firm with in-house marketing to match. Today his firm Pintas & Mullins reigns as an industry leader in mass torts and boast one of the largest nursing home and single event practices in the country. How did Bill go from a young lawyer with more ambition than money to a power player partnering with over 500 top firms nationwide? Bill shares what it really takes to dominate the personal injury. Learn how thoughtful marketing, smart partnering, and great communication can prep your firm to collaborate with the best in the business. Here's Bill Pintas, founder at Pintas & Mullins.
Bill Pintas:
I was interested in a legal career when I was 12 years old, so I basically fulfilled the decision made by a 12-year-old. I'm 63 now, so that was roughly 1972. 1972, if you wanted to make any money, there weren't investment bankers and there weren't sophisticated markets, the internet didn't exist, so you either became a doctor or a lawyer. And I figured being a lawyer gave me the most flexibility, and I really didn't feel like being a doctor. That just didn't seem to suit my desires or needs. So I thought, "Okay, well, I'll be a lawyer." From then I went to law school, graduated, and went out on my own, which was a mistake, but that's what I decided to do, and kind of just built up the firm organically at first, and then expanded it to where it is today.
Chris Dreyer:
Amazing, amazing yeah. You said went on your own and that was a mistake, and here you got Pintas & Mullins. So was it a mistake because you started early undercapitalized? Tell me-
Bill Pintas:
Well, all of it, I didn't know what I was doing. I had no money. And making mistakes, it took a lot longer to get it to where it was successful, because I didn't know anything. I did have my own little business when I was in high school at an autobody shop, so I mean I had some basic business skills and stuff like that. I was a business major in college. Opening up a law firm is a different animal. But little by little you make enough mistakes and you persevere, and little by little you start figuring things out.
Plus when I became a lawyer, advertising was just a few years old at that point where people were allowed to advertise. Even though I had very little money, I jumped on that bandwagon running late night TV commercials. I was paying $25 a commercial, so I'd save a couple thousand dollars and I'd run spots, and I had no employees. And people would call and they'd say, "Yeah, I saw the commercial on TV." And they said, "Are you the guy?" And I said, "Yeah." They're like, "Oh wow. You do commercials and you answer the phone?" I says, "Well, we like a hands-on approach." So they liked it. I mean, I had to answered the phone, I had no other employees. So I've done every job there is at the firm.
Chris Dreyer:
So Pintas & Mullins now, it's one of the largest partnering firms. So you work with over 500 law firms, and you mentioned advertising, being early in and running these TV spots and learning that acumen. Tell me about this model. And I think it's really smart, but there's a lot of challenges with it, communication, originating the cases. So talk to me about the structure because a bit different than your standard PI firm.
Bill Pintas:
It's certainly a lot different than the standard personal injury law firm, and it's different in many ways. So we're among the largest advertising firms, and we're probably the largest partnering firm in the country. The other thing is that we originate all the marketing internally, from pay-per-click to TV. I mean our chief marketing officer has 35 years of experience in television buys. We're very robust on our paper clicks. We've invited out the Google headquarters twice. They said, "We haven't worked with a law firm that does what you do."
We run a lot of Facebook ads and we do a lot of other proprietor type of marketing, and we're doing it internally. We're really, really good at it. And so we can originate cases cheaper, because we're not paying an agency fee, and we know what we're doing. And not every case type is good for TV, or PPC, or Facebook, or for other marketing channels, and certain case types work really well with it. And so since we can go ahead and do all of them, we can test one against the other. And we kind of have a pretty good feel for which one works and which one doesn't work. And so we're just really good at that.
Chris Dreyer:
There's a lot to dig in here. I think a lot of our audience, the first thing they think of is originating the case. You hear PI firms, "Hey, invest 10 to 20% in your marketing originating these cases," and I think your model just based upon would help facilitate you to do more. Do you think that's just age old advice that's just outdated? Do you think you've got to structure the firm, or just dependent upon the type of firm, how do you think about capitalization when it comes to originating these cases?
Bill Pintas:
We have a very substantial line of credit with our bank, and as you know, there's a lot of delay in the settlement of these cases. So half our practice is single event, the other half is mass tort. And we have a very diverse case list, unlike a handling firm. Handling firms have limitations on really their bandwidth as well as their expertise. Where for us it's a little bit different. I mean, we have a 70-person intake department, so we can screen a multitude of case types. We have partnering firms around the country that we partner with on these cases. We obviously try to pick the best firms, and through years of experience, we think we're really good at it. The other thing is we have a lot of law firms that come to us and say, for example, there was a ethylene oxide exposure case four or five years ago in Illinois and a firm came to us and said, "Hey, can you get some of these cases?" I said, "Sure, absolutely."
We ended up with the largest inventory of the cases that settled for $450 million. We had more than anybody. And so we have a lot of firms that come to us on these cases. And we just use our own money, we advertise and we send them the cases. Because, yeah, we all know about the Talcs, the roundups, all the big mass torts that are going on right now.
But these are niche campaigns where people come up to us and say, "Hey, there's a sex abuse with this one doctor in this one city or state," or a clergy, "This one priest and environmental. Try to get these cases." And I tell these firms, "You know what? Go ahead and exhaust your own marketing, but you got to remember, you're never going to get all the cases. Nobody is. I'm not going to get them all. No one's going to get them all. So rather than your competitor getting them all, do your own marketing and come to us and let us do it as well. And so there's a good chance we're going to get more than you are, but we're going to send them to you. And if you want to do it after you're done with your marketing, stop, wait till you're done, then come to us and we'll start it then."
So we had a law firm that came to us on the Flint, Michigan cases. It was about five or six years after the Flint incident occurred, and they said, "Hey, can you get us some Flint cases?" I'm like, "That's five years old." They said, "Yeah, but we think there's a lot of cases still out there." So we're like, "That's fine, we'll go ahead and we'll market for it." We're also partners with and run the back office operations of the Ben Crump Law Firm. When the George Floyd family called, they called, we inbounded that call, and we partners with Ben, and assembled the legal team and so forth. But anyway, now Flint, Michigan, our firm along with Ben, we went out and market as much as we could out of Flint. And within a matter of 60 days, we signed up 4,000 clients. I think we had the second largest inventory. There were a couple hundred firms that are involved in that litigation, and in a matter of 60 days, we had the second largest inventory.
The firm that was already in it, they have the largest inventory, but they're like, "Okay, well, this is a no-brainer. Why wouldn't we come to Pintas & Mullins and say, "Okay, go ahead. We've advertised as much as we can, let's see what you can do." And we're like, "That's fine. If we can't, we can't." And so that's kind of our model. And so we have a lot of firms that come to us and say, "Hey, can you get these kinds of cases?" We do, and we send it to them. But they got to be vetted, they got to be top tier quality trial firms, otherwise we're not going to work with them.
Chris Dreyer:
Lot to unpack there. One of the things too, you always think about, I think, people with the half glass full, right, and the pessimist would say, "Hey, you're a competitor," and those are the ones that are looking for complete exclusivity. But I think you've answered like, "Look, you're not going to capture them all. You're going to exhaust your capital and your channels that you're using, and we'll use our channels and we'll get what we can."
Bill Pintas:
Yeah. When we have our office Christmas party, the co-counsel left, they're like, "You have all of our competitors here, their competitors at the Christmas party." And I says, "Well, I'm sending them all cases, and so they love me." I mean, if somebody's sending you cases, you like somebody who's referring you cases. And so yeah, you figure, "Okay, I'm competing with you because I'm advertising." But like I said, "Do your own advertisement, but you're not going to get all the cases. You're just not."
Chris Dreyer:
With over 500 firm relationships, Bill has partnering down to a science. He outlines the rigorous criteria his firm uses to select litigation partners. They quickly vet firms on key factors and under 60 days long before cases payout. Bill explains why quality communication and seamless back office coordination are non-negotiables for partner readiness. Whether you're looking to align with advertising leaders or expand through referrals, Bill shares smarter strategies for choosing partners poised for mutual success.
Bill Pintas:
We're probably the largest nursing home firm in the country. And so somebody said, "Well, gee, you work with all these law firms, how do you know if they're any good? It takes years before you send it to them, and then years you find out if they're good or bad." I says, "Actually, we can kind of figure out if they're good or bad within 60 days." And they're like, "Well, how's that even possible?" "Well, because we send them cases. If we get 100 nursing home calls, we're only accepting maybe five. And we send them a case, if they accept a case that's kind of not good, we'll call it, and they reject a great case, we kind of start to get a feel for they really don't understand nursing home cases. And when you start sitting in a lot of cases and they start closing ones shouldn't. That's not a good sign.
And so because we understand which ones they should be pursuing, we recognize there's going to be some fallout, and ones that are kind of iffy, that those are the ones that they would say, 'Yeah, that one's not so good.' And so within a very short period of time, we could tell if they really understand the business, because we know what the criteria are." And so we're not a lead vendor, and unlike lead vendors, they make money by sending you anything, even if it's a crappy case, even if it's a tort that's not going to be successful. That's not us. We have firms come to us all the time that they want referrals on stuff, and we're like, "I'm sorry, we don't feel comfortable with that particular case type," and we need to take a pass. And also, they tell us that, "Hey, the quality of what you send is really good."
I says, "Well, I'm not a lead vendor. I'm not going to send you a case that's not good, because you're never going to make money on it. And why would I want to burn out the relationship where every time I send you something, your stomach cringes like, 'Oh my God, I got to look at another piece of garbage'? And so that doesn't make any sense for us. It doesn't serve the client."
And our goal here is obviously get the best representation. The client doesn't know who to go to. Okay, maybe they see an ad, maybe they do whatever, and they call, they really don't know who the best lawyer is. And so what I tell the lawyers, I said, "I'm actually the best law firm in the country." They're like, "Oh, come on. How are you the best law firm?" I said, because if I get the case, I give it to you, and I know you're the best lawyer in this market for this case type." They're like, "Oh well, that's true". "The client doesn't know that, but I do. I know you're the best birth injury lawyer in this market. The client doesn't know that I do." I said, "So that makes me the best lawyer because I'm going to make sure that the right person gets it." And so I view that, and it doesn't cost the client anything extra. So it really works out well for everybody.
Chris Dreyer:
One of these partnering firms, they have varying reputation. You're working with the best, right? So they're not typically trying to bring you just stuff that's terrible. How do you balance the... Because you're doing contingency, you're doing whatever fee split you have, I imagine, you just said, because you're not doing it like a lead gen. How do you measure the capital that you're going to invest in a Tylenol that is a bit riskier, but if you get in early and it goes right, versus you get in late, like your AFFF or your Lejeune, what's your decision making process for something like that?
Bill Pintas:
So, like I mentioned, half our business is single event. A single event is actually pretty straightforward. We analyze it. We have enough data, because we've had thousands of cases previously. We analyze it just like an insurance company. We look at what was the average settlement value, what was the duration of the case, what's the fallout rate, and then we can price what the acquisition needs to be. We just back into it, no different than an insurance company. So single event are easy. When you're dealing with mass tort cases or environmental things like that, there's no history on that case. So you have to look at other things. How big is the plaintiff pool? We were one of the first firms, not because we have any special talent, it just happens to be the firm that started a litigation came to us a week later and said, "Hey, can you get us a bunch of these?"
And we said, "Sure." And we had 2,000 phone calls in two days, and I said, "Okay, we're done with this. We're not going to do it because there's going to be too many plaintiffs." And so we shut it down, and I'm really glad we did. And so you have to look at how big is the plaintiff pool? How much money does the defendant have, how good is the liability, how good is the causation? Is this an injury that's a signature injury like Elmiron or mesothelioma? I mean, obviously those don't come along that often, but where this injury can only be gotten from this particular use of drug. Other cases it's like, "Okay, well, that could be caused by a lot of things, and the exposure levels and durations." So we assess it the same way that pretty much every other law firm does. And if it looks like there's a high probability. And I like to do what I call, we call it inside information, it's really not, but it kind of feels that way.
Lawyers are actively negotiating case types. It might be an environmental case, might be a mass tort, and they're like, "Hey, I am negotiating. These are the leading firms. Can you get me more of this case type?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely." All right, so now I'm sending them cases that I know there's a 90 plus percent chance of recovery. Doesn't that make more sense than jumping in on a mass tort day one? Even if it's cheap, you have no idea if that case is going to be any good. So why not go for a case that you're 90 plus percent certain it's going to resolve? The only issue is duration and amount. Those are significant, but at least you're going to make money on it. So I'd rather wait and go after those cases we have a very high probability of success.
Chris Dreyer:
Our audience listening is like, "Well, shit, I want cases from Bill." What are you looking for partner firms, are there any states that you're missing? For those listening, how do they get your attention?
Bill Pintas:
Sure. I mean, they can send us an email. The real key is that are they really a top tier firm? And that means they litigate cases, they try them, they're successful, they have a great track record, great back office, we're not getting complaints from clients. We can call and get statuses. We don't use the word refer, we call it partner. And the reason why is we continue to maintain contact with the client. And we don't disappear from the situation. I mean, there are firms that send it out and they never hear anything about it again.
We maintain contact with the client, and so the last thing we want to hear is a client call in and say, "Hey, this firm that you're working with never returns my call." And then we call them, and they don't return our call. That's death. I mean, we're done with that firm. And so there are firms that, yeah, everybody wants a lot of cases, but can they handle them? Do they have the skill? Do they have the back office? Do they have the money to prosecute the case? If they're just looking to settle cases, they shouldn't call us because we're not going to send them cases. We're not looking for that.
Chris Dreyer:
I'll tell you, that kind of answers one of the big questions I had in my head about the referring the non-partner firms because when you send the lead out, I mean, they're less likely to get the review. And we know how important certain channels like LSA or Local Maps are, and I would imagine it'd be much more challenging if you just sent them and never talk to them again.
Bill Pintas:
Sure. No, absolutely.
Chris Dreyer:
The other thing too is the private equity and raising capital. I guess if you had the data and one of these firms wanted some cases, they could probably partner up and say, "Hey, we want to invest," because you're doing the contingency fees anyways. I guess that that could maybe be a potential way to get on your radar and maybe even accelerate from a cashflow perspective.
Bill Pintas:
Sure. So I mean, we have done some of that in the past, and we're really pretty much, I mean, there's some exceptions that we'll do it. If it's a handling firm on a certain type of mass tort or something, we'll do it, but we really shy away from it. First of all, I don't think there's that many opportunities to go ahead and just take in a lot of capital, and right now, there are, between the ABSs that are being formed, which is nothing more than just a way a lender can get an equity return. That's basically all it is. Okay, so somebody gives you 25 or $50 million, where are you going to spend it? I don't know what you're going to... I mean, I know, and I'm not going to say the name of the firm, but I know a firm that was given $50 million. They kind of forced it down their throat, "Hey, take this please, and deploy it."
They returned it after about two months later, they spent a couple million dollars. They said, "We don't know where we could spend it on quality cases." And so you have people who are newbies getting in and they just think that they can spend it on every kind of mass tort case and it's going to work out. Baloney, it's not going to work out. The cost of capital in that kind of situation is very high. The durations, to me on a mass tort case now, assume it's going to take 10 years, not five, six, seven. 10. From the time you get that case to the time it's resolved till the time it pays out, distributions on these cases are taking 24 to 36 months after it settles. Okay. Look at Boy Scouts, I could look at Flint. I mean, these cases are taking three plus years after they're settled. And a lot of these other ones, because it's just the dynamics have changed. Talc's been going on now for about 12 years, and hasn't even settled yet.
Chris Dreyer:
That's unbelievable. And I have individuals like Darren Miller, and these individuals are diversifying the torts. And depending upon the model, 10 to 12 years, that's a good strategy for the other side. Right?
Bill Pintas:
Absolutely. Especially when they're borrowing a lot of money, they're going to burn through. They're going to have zero equity left at the end of the day. And, I hate to say it, there are, right now out there, and some sizable firms that are zombie firms that they're just walking dead. Their debt load is so high. Or you're talking about firms with a debt load of over a half a billion dollars. Okay?
Chris Dreyer:
Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Bill, this has been incredible. This is so enlightening. I appreciate you sharing the details that you had. How can our audience, mostly personal injury attorneys connect with you?
Bill Pintas:
They can email me bill@pintasmullinspr.com. That's pintasmullinspr.com. That's PR for Puerto Rico. And my partner Laura's still in Chicago, and that's laura@pintas.com.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Bill for sharing this wisdom today. Let's hit some takeaways, time for the pinpoints. Join forces, even the largest firms don't get 100% of the market share. Team up to target different injury niches and audiences, multiplying your lead potential. First, spend as much capital as your firm can afford on marketing. Be very strategic with your marketing spend. Understand which injury cases and types work best with different advertising channels, test and optimize. Then partner with an industry titan like Bill to take your case count to new heights.
Bill Pintas:
No one's going to get them all. So rather than your competitor getting them all, do your own marketing and come to us and let us do it as well.
Chris Dreyer:
Turn competitors into collaborators, carefully vet your potential partners, align with firms that match your standards and share your ambition. Once the partnership is established, maintain frequent contact to build trust and respect. Value them as an extension of your team. The synergy of advertising leader combined with top litigation firm creates exponential growth for both sides.
Bill Pintas:
I'm not a lead vendor. I'm not going to send you a case that's not good, because you're never going to make money on it.
Chris Dreyer:
Communication is a non-negotiable, period. Return every call promptly, whether you're a niche trial firm or a lead generating machine. Sloppiness destroys referral relationships, client satisfaction and firm reputation. Dial in the discipline first, then open the floodgates to get more cases through partner firms. Speed and quality communication is the price of entry.
Bill Pintas:
We maintain contact with the client, and so the last thing we want to hear is a client call in and say, "Hey, this firm that you're working with never returns my call." And then we call them and they don't return our call. That's death. I mean, we're done with that firm.
Chris Dreyer:
All right, y'all, that's it for today. But before you go, I want to extend a personal invitation to PIM Con, the official PIM Conference, September 15th through 17th. I would love you to join me to learn how to conquer marketing, network with titans, celebrate excellence, and take your firm from good to GOAT. We've got early bird pricing for a limited time. Lock in your spot with the PI Elite at pimcon.org. That's P-I-M-C-O-N.O-R-G. Link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. See you next time.
