Sean Claggett:
You actually can predict the outcome, not only the likelihood of success on the case, but the dollar amount that will flow with it.
Chris Dreyer:
Well, I need more revenue. Let's just add more bodies, more bodies, more bodies. You're on the hamster wheel higher and higher and higher. Versus no, how can we get more value?
Sean Claggett:
Attorneys that are not using data in their cases are taking unnecessary risks.
Chris Dreyer:
Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the no excuses, no BS legal marketing agency that works harder than the competition. Each week you get insights and wisdom from some of the best in the industry. Hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. All right, let's dive in. What would you do if you knew there was no limit to your success? What would you do if every fear that held you back one day just melted away?
Sean Claggett:
I had done trials before, but on the bigger ones where there was risk, I'd either bring somebody in or I'd settle, and it was that repeated pattern.
Chris Dreyer:
Sean Claggett has always been a generous man and a great trial attorney with lofty goals.
Sean Claggett:
I wanted to get three eight figure verdicts and a nine figure verdict, and I said, when I accomplish that, I'm done. I'm going to walk away because I figured that that would be a career's worth of verdicts.
Chris Dreyer:
Back in 2015, Sean's ambition did not match his confidence.
Sean Claggett:
As of July of 15, I had not had an eight figure verdict and I had set some goals for myself. And then finally after the seizure, I'm like, I am good enough to do this myself.
Chris Dreyer:
The seizure changed everything.
Sean Claggett:
I just wasn't scared. And I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? Lose a trial? I almost lost my life. I'm not going to die from losing a trial.
Chris Dreyer:
In 2016, Sean had the fourth most influential verdict in the United States. In that case, the top offer was $1.4 million. The jury came back with 16.4. The scary experience made him fearless. Intentional improvement made him successful. Over the past six years, Sean has obtained nearly $200 million for his clients. If you want to improve your craft, Sean is your lawyer to watch. He's a giver at heart and today is no exception. He shares with us the importance of learning from others, how big data and focus groups predict the outcome of his cases, and why you need to decouple revenue from headcount. Here's Sean Claggett, partner at Claggett & Sykes law firm.
Sean Claggett:
When I was in high school, I got into a bunch of trouble, kicked out of junior high. It was ninth grade, and got accused of something I didn't do and my family needed to hire a lawyer to help out and got me back into school, which was good. And so at that point I thought, hey, being a lawyer is pretty cool. You can help people. I was 14, 15 at the time and we didn't have any money, and so it was really a burden on the family. I mean, it wasn't like we had extra money to go hire a lawyer, and so you were up against a corrupt administrator.
You're in this position where you feel helpless and then this lawyer comes forward and gives you this path to where things will be right. And really it was just him threatening the school district. The litigation didn't go very far. And it was the greatest thing in the world to happened to me because I get removed from my one school, put into a different school. In my first class, I see this amazingly gorgeous Filipino girl. All these years later, she's my wife. We've been together since we were 16.
Chris Dreyer:
That's Lou, correct?
Sean Claggett:
That's Lou. Yeah. Lou and I have been together for a long time and if I don't get kicked out of that school, I don't meet Lou and the rest of this isn't history. It'd be a totally different path.
Chris Dreyer:
Well, first I like the half glass full, the very full optimist about you. Let's talk about Lou, Lou Claggett. So she's your Community Relations Director, which I see the word community come up everywhere. It's all over your site. What does community mean to you and your firm? What's the role of a Community Relations Director?
Sean Claggett:
You have to appreciate where Lou and I came from. We were born three days apart in the same year, but she was born in Manila, Philippines. I was born in Twin Falls, Idaho. Somehow, some way, destiny brought us both to Las Vegas, a place that probably neither one of us would've ever thought as a kid we would be at any point in our life. When my dad moved to Las Vegas, he moved before us because he was in the Ditch Witch trenchers and when the economy collapsed in the eighties in Idaho, nobody's buying trenchers, right?
So he came to Las Vegas, which was still booming, and we have nothing. Las Vegas has been so good to us. Reno has been so good to us. The state's been great to us. The state of Nevada is just a phenomenal place to be. And so when we think about well, how much do we need? It's not that much. We have what we need. We really have, from the beginning of the firm, I mean when we started the firm when I had nothing, we were still giving back even when we had very little to give. We'd give more time than money, but this was something my parents and her parents have always just instilled in us is to give back, to make the community a better place.
And so I always gravitated to these ideas of giving back, and Lou just is so amazing and has this heart that goes on for miles. She wants to help everybody. She's just done a great job, but we're careful. She goes out and researches who we're going to be partners with in the community, 'cause there are people that waste money, and so we want to make sure that the money we're giving is going to help the people it's intended to help, not to put on big parties so these socialites can feel good about themselves. We're very careful about where our money goes.
Chris Dreyer:
The interesting thing I hear, and you hear this a lot, is the people that give that don't expect anything in return, get it in 10x and that go giver mentality. So it's aligning with your guys' values, but I imagine that if you help someone out, they're going to be the person like, "Hey, Sean and Lou really helped me. I got this case. I'm going to bring it to them."
Sean Claggett:
There is that idea of financial karma. Isn't the greatest feeling in the world is just helping somebody? You go and give that a hundred dollars tip to the server for your cup of coffee. I mean, you do little things like this that just make people's day better and it's just little things. It's like helping one person have one better day. There's a whole lot of things that Lou and I do all the time that nobody will ever know about because it does make us feel good to help other people. That's why I do personal injury. I mean, it's the whole reason it's tied together is that you can help this person that's so desperately in need of help and they don't have to worry about paying bills. It's like, no, just you get better. Let us handle all the other stuff. It makes you feel good at the end of the day.
Chris Dreyer:
Sean has always been a giver and a great lawyer, but it was a brush with death that made him the record-breaking attorney he is today.
Sean Claggett:
Back in 2015, I was at a golf tournament up at Lake Tahoe with all my dear friends. It was a two man format and we were second place. We were doing really well. I remember putting the ball and next thing I know, I have a paramedic next to me, every guy in the golf tournament's around me, and as it turns out, I had had a massive grand mal seizure and had been unresponsive for a half an hour. Most people thought I died, certainly not going to be neurologically intact. I'm laying on the ground and the paramedic is looking at me. I've got oxygen in my nose and I'm trying to pull it out. They're like, "Leave it in." And I'm like, look, I'm going to go finish the round, okay?
I knew that I was golfing. I had the perception that I was there to golf and I was good. And then the question is, "Listen, if you can answer three questions, you can finish your round." I'm like, great. Shoot. I'm perceiving the question. I know what he's talking about. "What year is it?" It wasn't that I got the wrong year, it's that I didn't know the answer was a number. There was no recall. It didn't exist. It was the scariest thing in the world and when that happened, and I look, and my best friend is crying, your brain's not working. We go to the hospital.
The best they could explain is that I had a spider bite, likely a black widow, on my ankle area. I never felt that. It's not something that I remember. Who knows if that's really what happened? Nobody could give me a good explanation. The best one was the spider. I liked that one the most. It makes me feel better about the randomness of what happened, but it was an interesting moment in my life because I became completely dependent on other people for about six months 'cause I wasn't allowed to drive. I had nearly died. It's really scary because when I'm laying on the ground, I don't know what happened. I have no perception.
Chris Dreyer:
How old were you then?
Sean Claggett:
I was 38. Yeah, it was eight years ago. Almost eight years exactly, to the day. My brain did a very hard reset at that moment, a very hard reset that resulted in a lot of self-reflection about what I was doing as a parent, as a husband, as an attorney. As of July, this happened in July of 15, I had not had an eight figure verdict, and I had set some goals for myself. I had goals that in my career it was important for me, for whatever the reason was... I don't really know how I came up with these to be honest with you, but I wanted to get three eight figure verdicts and a nine figure verdict. And I said, when I accomplish that, I'm done. I'm going to walk away, because I figure that that would be a career, a career's worth of verdicts. 'Cause I didn't know very many people that had done that, ever. And so I thought those were lofty goals.
And after that seizure, I just wasn't scared. I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? Lose a trial? I almost lost my life. I'm not going to die from losing the trial. And so I started doing them and I had done trials before. On the bigger ones where there was risk, I'd either bring somebody in or I'd settle it, and it was that repeated pattern. And then finally after the seizure, I'm like, I am good enough to do this myself. And I did have this weird result after the seizures that my memory was just better, right? My recall was better.
Chris Dreyer:
That's incredible. That's interesting.
Sean Claggett:
Yeah. So when I focus on a trial now, my ability to recall exhibit numbers and what's in that exhibit, where it's at, is weird. It also was weird is as soon as the trial's over, if you were to ask me about that exhibit, I will have no recollection of what you're talking about. I will have moved on to something else.
Chris Dreyer:
Interesting. And shortly, 2016, you had a case. I think the offer was $1.4 million or you went to trial and they returned a jury verdict of 16.4. Talk about an asynchronous bet about taking that to the finish line. My goodness. So tell me about that case and then also tell me about the investments and the time that you took to enhance your skill. And you talk about this a lot. I think you talked about, hey, these attorneys, they'll be practicing 10 years and they don't really improve, and you have really been intentional about improving.
Sean Claggett:
Going back to my beautiful, unbelievable wife, I had gotten distracted doing other businesses back in late 2000s and early 2010 and '11. I was the CEO of World Series of Fighting. I had started that company, which is a whole story, and I acquired a Denny's restaurant as a fee in a lawsuit. So operating the Denny's restaurant, the CEO of this other... I wasn't being a trial lawyer. Lou was like, "You're a really good trial lawyer, I think. You should focus on this. Give it three years. Just three years." Well, the third year is when I had the seizure, so I hadn't gotten to that point of trying the cases that she felt that I was capable of doing. So it was a weird time to have a seizure.
I was really ready. I had gone all in at the time with Keenan and Ball and the reptile thing because that was the thing at the time. It was the first time there was a system for young lawyers to go learn how to maybe do things. And I didn't know. I mean, as a lawyer, you don't know what you don't know. I remember the first time I went to a class, they were talking about order of proof. I'm like, what is that? What's order of proof? And I felt like an idiot and I was embarrassed 'cause I didn't know what that meant. But a lot of young attorneys are probably listening to this podcast going, "I don't know what order of proof is either." And that's perfectly okay. Order of proof is just the order in which you're going to call your witnesses, and then within that, you embed in there the evidence, the exhibits that are going to come in and who's going to get them in. So you need to have that all planned out because you're basically writing a script that you're going to put on in front of the jury.
And so I didn't know that, but I learned a ton, not just from them, meaning Don Keenan and David Ball, but I learned a ton from the attorneys that were going through the process with me. Stu Ratzan's one of those guys, he's out in Florida. He is one of the best damn trial lawyers I ever met. I've gotten some of the best things I ever learned as a lawyer came from Stu Ratzan. I mean, he did some things and I steal them and then people think that they're my ideas. But really some of those are Stu Ratzan's. I've learned a lot from Roger Dodd and obviously the great Keith Mitnick, Rex Parris, and Panish, and Lanier.
What you do is you steal a little bit from everybody and eventually you mesh it together and all of a sudden it's yours. And maybe it looks a little different. Maybe it looks a lot the same. I'm always flattered when I see an opening statement that looks just like one I did, and I'm like, "That's pretty good, man. I'm happy you did that." Because it's flattering. But one of the things that I believed in a long time ago, when I was a coming up attorney in Las Vegas, the way it was done was there was two great plaintiff trial lawyers and they were great. And they would tell you, "Refer your cases to us and we'll get you the results." And that's what you did. And they wouldn't tell you what they were doing, how they were doing it or anything else.
Chris Dreyer:
Keeping it to the chest.
Sean Claggett:
So it was a great business model, but nobody else was getting better. And it bothered me, and I used one of those attorneys for a case back in 2012. We got a great result. He did a great job. But when I asked him to tell me what he was doing and why he was doing it, there was no sharing. And I said to myself, that will never happen again.
And then I ended up being in a position to be a leader within the personal injury community in the state starting in about 2012. I just committed to saying, we will always give away our knowledge and never charge for it. It's just something that I fundamentally believe in. And so as that's happened, what's great is the plaintiff bar in Nevada, these defense attorneys and adjusters are like, "Oh, Nevada's a hell hole." For them, right? Because all these big verdicts. Yeah, there's a reason. The lawyers here are fricking awesome.
The attorneys in our state have worked so hard to become better trial lawyers, and we've all shared our knowledge that now it's not me going out and getting big verdicts. It's so exciting. You can go in the courtroom, you go to our courthouse anytime you want in Las Vegas, and you'll see five or six PI attorneys going to town, getting verdicts. It's awesome. And so they call it a hellhole, but the reality is we've just shared all of our knowledge and the group is not that big. It's a 250, 300 lawyers, and so you can raise that boat up pretty quick.
Chris Dreyer:
Sean and his team secure massive verdicts over and over. Focus groups are key. Sean's focus groups are massive. He pulls hundreds of people in dozens of focus groups.
Sean Claggett:
And we're doing big data now, right? I mean, big data is the future of what we do. There's no doubt about that. The last trial I just did that ended a month ago in New Mexico, the big data, we had put 1200 people through the focus groups. 1200 people. And the average verdict was coming back at 511 million. We did the real trial and the verdict came back at 485 million. And while I was in that trial, by the way, two cases we had consulted on came back at 25 and a half million and 41 million.
Chris Dreyer:
Incredible.
Sean Claggett:
We were predicting those outcomes in all those cases. We already knew the outcomes. One of the things in my early days what I was taught is that there was this belief that you cannot predict the value of cases through focus groups. Everybody somewhat agreed with that. And we've proven that to be completely and utterly false. You actually can predict the outcome, not only the likelihood of success on the case, but the dollar amount that will flow with it. And so it's so exciting. I have a book coming out in the coming months with John and Alicia Campbell that talk all about the big data. It is revolutionizing what we do. It's so exciting. I mean, it's so much fun having predicted ahead of time, this is what the jury's going to do and then watching them do it and you're like, I knew it. Yeah, let's go.
Chris Dreyer:
On the data perspective, it's just so powerful. I found that the larger even my company gets, the more we utilize data and just how impactful it is. You watch Shark Tank and they say, "How much does it cost to acquire a client? What's the client worth?" What's the client worth? These focus groups can tell you what the value is. And so I guess that changes the dynamic of maybe go all in for all these expert witnesses and you can invest more because you know what the outcome's going to be.
Sean Claggett:
Right, and so for example, at my firm, if we get a data study back that shows that, hey, this is a $50 million case. Well, that's going to be certain attorneys that are going to handle that, for right now. And then we have attorneys, "Hey, this is a 3 million case. All right, this is your case. Go get that 3 million and when you get that 3 million, then we're going to bump you up to five to 7 million. Go get that, and now we're going to give you the eight to 10 and then we're going to give you the 20 million." And then you're, "See you later," go do them all, right?
You hear people say there's levels. In any profession, there's levels and there is. There are levels. The first level is not being scared to lose. That's the first level. You got to get past that. Once you're not scared to lose, then the level is learning how to do a trial. You don't want to be your first trial, a $25 million trial, that you screw up. That's not good. Go screw up a $25,000 trial. It still sucks to lose, but we've all done it. I mean, my first trial I ever did, my client got rear ended and I got defensed. I didn't even know how that's possible. I didn't even know that was a thing. That was 18 years ago or something like that. But it sticks with me. I didn't do another personal injury jury trial for nine years. If I could lose a rear-ender, man, I'm no good at this. I just didn't know what I was doing back then.
So yeah, that's the thing is... It's always exciting though. I mean the data is the most valuable commodity in the world. I think we all know that. And attorneys that are not using data in their cases are taking unnecessary risks. It's not the standard that attorneys are judged by today, but if you're not doing focus groups, certainly that would fall below the standard of care for lawyers. Three to five years if you're not doing big data that it will fall below the standard of care.
Chris Dreyer:
And one of the things I want to key in on is we had Chad Dudley from Dudley DeBosier on several episodes ago, and he was talking about identifying those top 5% cases. You're doing the exact thing that you just said. "Hey, this case is going to be worth this much. I'm putting my heavy hitter, maybe myself or one of my top people on it. Maybe this person's an up and comer. I'm going to put him on this case." And then, "Oh, this is my newer trial attorneys. They need to get their feet wet. I'm going to put them on this level of case."
Sean Claggett:
Yeah. In fact, one of the things we do at my firm, I do a lot of consulting, right? Because there's only so many cases you can try from an emotional, physical standpoint, right? They're heavy duty tolls on your everything because you're working so much. I'm actually flying out to Connecticut on Saturday to work with a firm for a week to do that very thing. They have these great trial lawyers and those trial lawyers were working on 120 cases each. And it's like you're leaving so much money on the table on your top cases, so what we're going out there to do is to identify their 10 best cases each. The rest of the cases, give to other people, but let the top trial lawyers focus in and really litigate those cases up because they'll end up doubling the revenue of the firm within a year to two. By doing that. Instead of having your best people work on a hundred cases, have your best people work on eight to 10.
Our firm is eight to 10 cases per lawyer. That's the way it works. And if we get beyond eight to 10 cases per lawyer, we hire more lawyers. Big cases require big lawyers to do big work. If you're overwhelmed because you're working on 50 cases that are worth under 50,000, and because you're doing that, you can't focus in on that $30 million case, it's common sense to fix that problem. Scary, but it's common sense.
Chris Dreyer:
It makes me think, traditional mindset of labor is you look at, "Oh, I need more revenue. Let's just add more bodies, more bodies, more bodies." You're on the hamster wheel higher and higher and higher. Versus no, how can we get more value? How can we increase the value? And it just changes the dynamic. It decouples revenue from headcount. And so I love that.
One of the other things too, just a pit to a pin to this is, and I found this really interesting, this was right at the beginning before we hit that record button, you mentioned like, "Hey..." I can't remember what we were talking about, but you said, "Hey, I'm not really the managing attorney, managing the law firm. I'm focusing on these trials. And I went and I flew to this area and I did a trial." Tell me about that dynamic because it's different, because most people say, "Hey, I'm the owner. I need to delegate. And I set at the top and I just delegate around." But you don't outsource Joe Rogan doing a podcast or Howard Stern doing a radio interview. So you're focusing in on that high value skill, your trial skills. So tell me about that because it's definitely different.
Sean Claggett:
I teach and have taught as an adjunct professor at Boyd School of Law, UNLV's Law School, for a long time and I was proud of the way I operated and managed my firm, but we got to the point where I started to become pretty successful at trials. As it is when you become successful at trials, more people want you to do their trials. And so we started bringing in bigger cases.
And so I had this amazing attorney who had been with me since he was a law clerk. He was a great writer, brilliant legal mind. My firm name is Claggett & Sykes. My partner, Will Sykes has been with me for a very long time. Will and I combined. If we took all of our skill sets and you asked us to organize something really well, we'd get an F on a grade. We're great lawyers and we're really good at certain things, but being organized and creating processes, Will is way better than me, but still nowhere close to Matt Granda, who's our managing partner. And so Will and I were the only equity partners at the time, made the very simple decision to make Matt an equity partner, but he would have to give up doing what we do and that he would agree to be the managing partner. We approached Matt, Matt happily accepted.
At the time, the firm, I think we had six or seven lawyers, and now I think we have 25 or 27 lawyers. The revenue Matt has caused in the last five years, the revenue to go up 600%. It's amazing what he's done, and what he's done is freed Will and I. So Will now runs the litigation of the firm. He oversees all the lawyers' litigation, so Will keeps a tie on that. And then I try all the really big cases, and I consult. And there's another attorney in the office. All he does is consult or try big cases. And then we have attorneys that have teams and they lead those teams. And so it's a really strategic way that Matt has developed the firm. He's allowing people to maximize their value to the firm in whatever it is that they do that with. Because not all lawyers are the same.
And I think a lot of firms make that mistake. They're like, "Okay, this lawyer's going to come in, they're going to do this." Well, maybe they're not good at that. But the lesson learned here, for everybody listening, is that trial work is teamwork. It's a team effort. I mean, when we go to trial, this last trial we just did in New Mexico, we had nine lawyers between three firms. Now there was only two of us asking questions. I was lead counsel. I did the voir dire open and close and questions, and then Josh Conaway asked witnesses questions. But we had seven other lawyers prepping with us, helping with key issues. To sit there and be like, "Oh, I got this verdict," is the biggest misnomer I've ever heard. You didn't get the verdict. Your team did.
Chris Dreyer:
I love that, the team approach, and it's a combined effort, and the outcomes it could create. And I love the aspect of delegating and keeping your high value activities and just focusing in on that and focus, focus, focus. You do something that's, at least from what I've heard, it's pretty unconventional where you find a song that tells the client's story in trial. So just briefly, just tell me about that.
Sean Claggett:
I've had the unfortunate experiences of losing my two best friends in two separate car wrecks when I was 18 and I had just turned 19. So senior year in high school, freshman year of college, two of my best friends were killed in individual wrecks. I got really depressed, which situational depression makes sense when your best friends die. Music was my place where I could feel like my emotions were free to ride out and maybe express myself in a way that I was struggling to do it myself. And when my second friend died, Melissa, she was... It's still hard. You're really not ever over that, right? That's always a scar on your heart. And at her funeral, the song they played was Butterfly by Lenny Kravitz. That song is so beautiful and so sad to me because of what it represents, the loss of my dear friend.
If music could move me and help me through the worst points of my life, the hardest times of your life, that I think that that's something that resonates with other people. And I've just always felt that way, that you go to funerals and songs or played at almost every funeral, people play music and all these songs mean something to somebody. Music is my way of honoring, and it's hard. I mean, I struggle, man. Gosh, there's some times that I just struggle to find the right song, but I do it in almost every case. And I say almost every case. There are times where I haven't, but in almost all my cases, I try to find that song that will honor my client.
It's a really good exercise, by the way, for anybody listening is go really pay attention to the lyrics. And just so they understand, I'm not playing the song at trial. I'm reading the lyrics of the song in my own cadence to match the emotional tone that I'm driving home to the jury. And an example of that is that I had a brain injured client. She was brain injured because of medical malpractice, and the husband had testified that what he missed the most was the little things, just having a cup of coffee with his wife in the morning and laughing about what's in the paper or driving down the street and seeing something they remember. It's just those little things. And so there's a song that I thought was just so on point that was from the Rent Musical. Of all things, the Rent musical, and it's called Seasons of Love.
And the question is, how do you measure a year in the life of someone? And the song poses these ideas. Do you measure them in sunsets, cups of coffee? How do you do it? And at the end, the answer is love. You measure it in love. The love that this husband had for his wife, for him to acknowledge during trial that she used to lift the burden of everybody else in the house, but now she's become this big burden on everybody. And he loves his wife, he'll never leave her, but it's hard because she was... So how do you measure it for his loss? You measure it in the love that he has, that reciprocal love that he lost because she's not capable of loving back. That jury was coming back at $150 million.
Chris Dreyer:
That's really special. I really appreciate that. Sean, this is incredible. You have a wealth of knowledge. And one final question. For the attorneys listening, you got this big case, you want to do co-counsel with the expert and you want to learn because he's willing to share. Sean, where can people go to connect with you?
Sean Claggett:
Yeah, you could go to our website at claggettlaw.com. That's C-L-A-G-G-E-T-T-L-A-W.com. That's the best way. And then you can shoot me an email. It's Sean, S-E-A-N, @claggettlaw.com.
Chris Dreyer:
Thanks so much to Sean for sharing his wisdom today. Let's hit the takeaways. Time for the pinpoints. Lift each other up. Sean is passionate about sharing knowledge. He's borrowed from the best and he freely gives everything he has learned as a trial attorney. This shared knowledge base has one incredible result: massive verdicts.
Sean Claggett:
These defense attorneys and adjusters are like, "Oh, Nevada's a hellhole." For them, right? Because all these big verdicts. Well, yeah, there's a reason. The lawyers here are fricking awesome. The attorneys in our state have worked so hard to become better trial lawyers, and we've all shared our knowledge that now it's not me going out and getting big verdicts. It's awesome. And so they call it a hellhole, but the reality is, we've just shared all of our knowledge and the group is not that big. It's 250, 300 lawyers, and so you can raise that boat up pretty quick.
Chris Dreyer:
Predict the future. Big data is changing what we think we know.
Sean Claggett:
In my early days what I was taught is that there was this belief that you cannot predict the value of cases through focus groups. Everybody somewhat agreed with that. And we've proven that to be completely and utterly false. You actually can predict the outcome, not only the likelihood of success on the case, but the dollar amount that will flow with it.
Chris Dreyer:
Match talent to case value. When you have the ability to predict the outcome of the case, it's much easier to assign the right talent. This way, each case becomes less risky and attorneys can grow into more complex cases.
Sean Claggett:
The first level is not being scared to lose. That's the first level. You got to get past that. Once you're not scared to lose, then the level is learning how to do a trial and starting out. Because listen, you don't want to be your first trial, a $25 million trial, that you screw up. That's not good. Go screw up a $25,000 trial.
Chris Dreyer:
For more information about Sean, check out the show notes. While you're there, please hit that follow button so you never miss an episode of Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. All right everybody, thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I'm out.
