Angela Bruno:
Trial isn't the ultimate success story, and bullying yourway for a certain dollar amount isn't either.
Sonya Palmer:
It gives you critical insight to clients.
Angela Bruno:
That's again, another example of me negotiating in myeveryday life. I'm negotiating in my mind for women.
Sonya Palmer:
For the eighth consecutive year, women outnumber men inlaw schools across the nation. Yet this wave of change has not reached theshores of power. Women hold just 25% of seats at the table as board members andmanaging partners, but the tides are turning. Women in law are no longer meeklywaiting for an invitation, are boldly striking out, creating a future wheresuccess is defined on their own terms. Law firms fit into their lives not theother way around. As this new generation of trailblazers rises, we stand withthem, ready to amplify their voices and fuel the transformation. This isLawHer.
I am Sonya Palmer, your host and VP of operations atRankings, the SEO agency supporting you in claiming your rightful place at thetop. We are thrilled to present the third and final miniseries of season two,the art of negotiation. In this series, we explore negotiation not just as aprofessional skill but as a life-changing art form. We'll sit down with an extraordinaryarray of women who have mastered the negotiation table in various arenas. Aformer judge, a federal trade commission attorney who's also competed on MasterChef, skilled mediators and experts in Title IX and workplace disputes. Thesetrailblazers share how they advocate for justice in the courtroom and negotiatethe lives they want outside of it. We'll uncover strategies for high stakesettlements, techniques for navigating complex deals, and insights on balancingpersonal ambitions with professional demands.
Let's meet today's guest. Angela Bruno is a powerhouse inthe field of negotiation and mediation. After graduating summa cumme laude fromUCLA in US Hastings College of Law, she quickly distinguished herself as aforce to be reckoned with. During her time at UC Hastings, Angela honed hernegotiation skills, winning both regional and national mediation competitionsin 2007. Her expertise caught international attention leading to a position inRome working with the European Union to educate judges and lawyers onmediation. Angela's career has been marked with significant achievements. Sheco-founded BRUNO | NALU with her husband Keith in 2014, a firm known forhandling complex high stakes personal injury and wrongful death cases.
Their early successes included a hundred thousandmediation settlement in the first month and a $40 million wrongful deathverdict. Recognized as a super lawyer and named one of the National Trierlawyers top 40 under 40, Angela has built a reputation as a fearless courtroomadvocate with a client centric approach. As the lead negotiator at her firm,she's driven its success through skillful mediation and high settlements. Inour conversation, Angela shares strategies for developing crucial negotiationskills, how to leverage these skills both in and out of the courtroom, uniquechallenges and opportunities for women in negotiation, and insights on buildinga successful legal career. Let's dive in.
Angela Bruno:
So it is interesting. I always thought I would go and getmy MBA. I loved business, I loved the idea of building something, growingsomething. I quickly learned when I went out to the workforce, and you'rereally bottom of the totem pole and the rise to the top is 20 years. I justquickly realized the structure of business in what I had perceived it to be,the reality wasn't going to be the same. So of course I started looking at abusiness school and really what happens in business school, a lot of times, notall the time, there's a small percentage where people go to business school andactually start their own business. But the vast majority just go back toanother big firm and instead of being at the very bottom, maybe they're in themiddle, but you don't have autonomy or you're not really part of the decisionmaking.
And the more I started to talk to people, they would say,"You should really just go to law school. It'll give you the foundationfor business. Maybe you want to be a lawyer, maybe you don't, but it's notgoing to hurt you." I saw how many people I met had their own law firms ata law school, that percentage was significantly higher. You don't have theoverhead, your talent is the business or less moving pieces. And I thought,"Well, I don't know if I want to be a lawyer, but I definitely know thisis going to help me anyway I go." And so that's how I ended up in lawschool believing I'd own my own practice, but really I didn't know which areaor how it would actually all play out.
Sonya Palmer:
I love that it's almost a total opposite where so manypeople go to law school to be lawyers and then find themselves starting abusiness. So to want to start a business and then decide to be a lawyer, I lovethat.
Angela Bruno:
Yeah, that is really what happened. I mean, I couldn'thave totally predicted how it would all play out. In hindsight, it was theright way for me.
Sonya Palmer:
And then while you were in law school, you studied the artof communication with a focus on negotiation and mediation. What does thatmean? Were there specific courses? After school things? Was it self-taught?
Angela Bruno:
Like you said, most people go to law school with the goalof being a trial lawyer, or at least I went to UC Hastings. That was theemphasis there, was, "You're going to go here and you're going to be incourt." I just knew that probably wasn't exactly what I was trying to do.And so there's mock trial teams, moot court, and then they also had thisnegotiation team. My whole thing was I wanted to make deals. I was a dealmaker. In my mind, that's where this was all going. So when I found out therewas a negotiation team, I had to try out. And you try out just like you'regoing for a trial team. I mean it was like a fish to water. I loved it. It waskind of how theater people, when they're on stage, it all makes sense to them.Really reason I made it through law school was because I had such a deeppassion for negotiating.
After school hours, multiple days a week, I mean it wasreally my whole life through law school was the negotiation team. And wetraveled locally, we traveled all over the United States. We traveled actuallyinternationally. The people that are passionate about it are deeply passionateabout it, and want to expand the practice. Because the more people thatunderstand how to negotiate, the better the deals are that are made, thehappier people are in the end. And if you know anything about people in life,it's not really the facts that are the issue or the ultimate conclusion, butit's how you make people feel. And that is the art of negotiating is havingpeople walk away feeling like that went well. It's an art. It has to bepracticed. And I think I had a really huge advantage out of law school havinghad those skills over maybe some of the more technical skills, at least forwhat I do in my job.
Sonya Palmer:
Yeah, 100%. And making deals is fun. I love that you drawthat. It's very, very fun to make deals. So if it's something that you'repassionate about, and you're good at and it's fun, negotiation is good for allof the parties involved, not just one or the other. You mentioned internationaltravel. You worked in Rome promoting mediation after law school, not a commonpath.
Angela Bruno:
No.
Sonya Palmer:
How did that happen?
Angela Bruno:
Well, I was on the negotiation team for I think nearlythree years, maybe at the end of my first year and then all through the nexttwo years. And you get recognized very quickly in that field. It's small. I wona competition against Harvard while in DC, and that sort of put me to the topof the list of where other law firms would be interested in looking at. Aprofessor at Harvard reached out to me to go to their business school afterthat competition. So it opened doors that you didn't know existed. And so Itook the opportunity to go to Rome. I always wanted to live in Europe. I didn'tdo it in college. It was a great opportunity to go out there and learn reallyhow much they struggle with people not having the skills to negotiate.
It was creating huge conflict between countries and wewould go in and teach really the fundamentals of why this makes sense to do itthis way. And not ironically, their perspective of, "For every dollar Igive up I'm losing," is a very similar perspective to people here thatinsist on going to trial. Because they view everything as you're givingsomething up that you shouldn't have to give up versus, no, you're gainingsomething that you would never have if you went to trial. Trial isn't theultimate success story, and bullying your way for a certain dollar amount isn'teither. There's so much more to these pieces. And so teaching people in theirfifties and sixties these concepts was hugely beneficial.
Sonya Palmer:
So what was Rome like? What was your time in Europe like?
Angela Bruno:
So I mean I was living kind of a fantasy. I worked inPiazza di Spagna, which is where everyone wants to be. I will say I wasmassively underpaid, so it wasn't like money was flowing. The only thing I hadwas myself in a foreign country and a place to go to work. But I loved it. Oneof the sayings I always have is make every situation fun. Every part of life isnot fun. I mean I'm in so many situations that are not fun, and there is somelevel of fake it till you make it. I could have easily gone to Rome and beenmiserable with my equivalent of 450 US dollars a month while living there. Itwas brutal. I made friends, they took me under their wing, they had cars.
I just did whatever I had to do to make it a goodexperience. And it was a great experience, and they asked me to stay anotheryear and increased my pay. I declined it, but it was such a good opportunityfor me to see what life would be like in Europe. I'd rather experiencesomething and reject it than not have the opportunity. And that was a lot ofwhat I wanted, and I was trying to make a decision at that point if I would goto Harvard for business school or where I was was enough. And it gave me thattime and opportunity to say, "I have so many opportunities in the legalfield, this is really what I want to do."
Sonya Palmer:
You started your firm with your husband, Keith, in 2014.Walk us through that decision. You wanted to own a business. So how did thatsort of come to be?
Angela Bruno:
So we started dating, and we were doing two very differentpractice areas, and he got an opportunity to try a civil case. It was a caraccident case, just a very basic rear render. And he told the attorney whoasked him to do it, that's just not his background. He doesn't have thatexperience, just to give the case away to someone else because he was primarilydoing criminal defense work. The referral attorney just wasn't taking no for ananswer, basically said, "Look, you have great trial experience. There's noreason you can't do this." So he capitulated and decided to take it notrealizing that I had PI experience. I had a very brief stint at a civil lawfirm. And so we started working on the case. Literally we're dating, working onit at night, like law students basically, while we're doing totally differentpractice during the day.
So he takes the case to trial, really hits it out of thepark. I mean there's no question it was such a basic small $10,000 type case,ends up getting mid six figures. I mean it was really outrageous, and everyonewanted to know who did your closing argument? How did you come up with theseideas? And he is like, "Well, Angela wrote the closing argument." Andeveryone was like, "You've got to be kidding me. You two have to have afirm." And that was really the beginning. His passion is being in front ofan audience, and he has a power of persuasion and his ability to bring thingsto life is second to none. And I have my skills, and just together we realizedhow we could make this magic happen, not just once, but over and over. And thattrial happened, it was basically eight months later we started our firm.
Sonya Palmer:
You had some early wins because you had 100K settlementfirst month.
Angela Bruno:
So yeah, we started our firm. I mean literally we getmarried, maybe four or five months later we took our honeymoon. So we're inParis, and we get asked to do a case the day we were flying home, the mediationwas the next day. And so we go, "Okay." I'm literally reading themediation binder, the whole file in the car drive from Orange County to LA, andthey had demanded a hundred grand in the brief. And I'm looking at Keith going,"This is insane. This is not a hundred thousand dollars case." And heis like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I'm like, "Well,we're going to have to tell them that we're trial counsel and this is off thetable." I mean, I don't know who we thought we were, but we thought wewere something. So we walk in, I mean the referral lawyer's like, "Whatare you doing? I just need 100K. The client's happy with it."
I'm like, "There's no way. This is a massive shouldersurgery." And when I say I literally just told everyone to move aside, andI'm not being dramatic, I was like, "You guys can't do this." And Ijust work that room for six hours straight, and it was just, I mean obviouslyit was coming off my honeymoon. I'm telling everyone I know what I'm doing, butreally, I mean this guy doesn't know this is my first mediation since startinga practice. So that was just an incredible experience. I loved every second ofit. And it's one of those things where you've been trained to do something, butuntil you do it in real life, you don't know like, "Is it really going towork?" And so it was nice because, again, my husband's entire backgroundis going to trial. He is diehard passionate about trial and he got to see whatI have been saying about mediation, negotiating, how there is an alternatepath. It doesn't mean you're going to get less money, arguably you get more.And it was so validating.
Sonya Palmer:
My notes literally said diehard trial attorney, as yousaid that. He had a $857 million verdict in the state of Washington.
Angela Bruno:
That's true. Just December of 2023. Yeah, I mean we knewthe case was worth a lot. I can't say we could have predicted that verdict. Itwas truly jaw dropping, almost unbelievable. I mean the amount of times we hadto re-add up the numbers to make sure what we thought we heard was really whatit was adding up to. I mean, it's still kind of surreal. I mean you can'tprepare yourself for something like that.
Sonya Palmer:
No, it's amazing. Yeah. So how you were operating backthen when you started it, is that still sort of how you operate? Have youdivided work streams or practice areas, or you kind of are a team?
Angela Bruno:
Yeah, so it's definitely changed. So in the beginning, Iwould say the first three years without a doubt, we were doing every trialtogether. So every single trial, he was first chair, I was second chair. We haddifferent roles within the trial, but we attended every mediation together andevery trial together and we were really a partnership that worked well togetherbecause we have different strengths. Over time it became a bad use of time. Thevolume of cases were just getting too high. Two people couldn't be on everysingle case. And so our business model has absolutely changed to today where Iprobably take 90 to 95% of our cases to negotiation, to mediation before hereally touches it. If I'm unable to get it done, or sometimes the handwriting'sjust on the wall early on, then he's really handling those cases more primarily.
And people ask us all the time, I feel like I should justaddress the elephant in the room. "How can you work with yourhusband?" So many people are like, "There's just absolutely no way Icould do it." And obviously every personality is different. Ourpersonalities are unique, but what I think works for us is that we are sohighly specialized individually in separate areas. I'm not questioning himabout the evidence code and whether or not he's right, and he's not questioningme about my case valuation. So there's not that conflict that would naturallybe there where you're arguing over how you're doing the job. We really don't dothat. We can still have difference of opinions about the case approach or theway we see the client, but when it comes to the heart of what we bring to thetable, no one's stepping on each other's toes.
Sonya Palmer:
So there's a lot of structure. The lines aren't reallyblurred, but also that you've always done it together. You talked abouthoneymoon, coming in, so this is how you do law.
Angela Bruno:
Yes.
Sonya Palmer:
I love that.
Angela Bruno:
Yes, for sure.
Sonya Palmer:
How has the firm's trajectory and success matched thatearlier vision?
Angela Bruno:
Early on we were probably naive in thinking that we couldjust continue to forever work on every single case together. And what we sortof appreciated over time was that that's just a bad use of our time, especiallyin a small firm. If we were at a big firm and we weren't also doing all of thebusiness side of it, maybe it would be more practical to be a real trial team.And we've had that offer made to us many times. It's just not one that we want.So we've had to learn that if we want to stay small, which we do, it's not foreveryone, but for us, we have expanded our firm, and we purposely reduced it.
It's really just a better fit for us to have low volume,high quality cases that we have a lot of control over. We are knee-deep inevery case. There's not a case that we don't know who's handling it or we don'tknow where it is in the process. We like it that way. We feel we are the secretsauce to these cases, and so we don't want to dilute that brand. I think that'sbeen the big difference between the beginning of, "Let's do everythingtogether." We do like working together. There's no question. I think in aperfect world we work on everything together and it would be fun, butpractically speaking it made more sense to find ways to separate when I can dosomething and really handle it myself for an entire length of the case versushim. And again, we just have such compatible but different strengths. He overthe course of time, his interest in doing trials has only grown.
And if you look at most trial attorneys, that's not thetrajectory of that they take, they usually start out hot and heavy, and theyhave a very successful track record for a few years, and then they burn out.And that's typical, which I would've thought that's what would happen to us aswell. If you're just looking statistically, absolutely not what happened. Hewill put himself in a position to try a case no matter what. That's great. It'swhat he likes to do. That's what he should do. He gets a lot out of itpersonally, it's good for clients, it's good for the bar. Judges love him. Soit's an all around good thing, which gives me the freedom to take cases and ifI can settle them, I know that I have a very strong backup plan, which I thinkgives us a lot of leverage.
Sonya Palmer:
While the goal of mediation is to settle a case, Angela'sperspective offers additional depth. She explains the often overlooked benefitsthat the mediation process provides.
Angela Bruno:
Everyone goes to mediation with the intent, and you shouldgo with the intent of settling the case. I think that's an important part ofmediation is that both sides are showing up with an interest in settling. It'snever fun to show up and be told the other side has no authority or they'reshowing up because they had to, but this isn't what they want to do. Thatdoesn't help anyone. So everyone should go in thinking to themselves, "I'mgoing to settle this case." However, there should also be an understandingthat you're going to learn things in mediation that you cannot and will neverlearn in another setting, which I think people don't appreciate. Becauseeveryone thinks, "Well, I've talked to my client, I've met with my client,I've met with family members, I've done all these things in preparation,therefore there's nothing I don't know."
And here is the really key element and why it's differentin mediation. In mediation, it is the only time that the client is trulyconfronted with a dollar amount that is not coming from their attorney's mouth,and you cannot create that environment. You can't create that stress, you can'tcreate that reality in your office, in their home, in the abstract. It's wherethe rubber meets the road and they're going to have to make decisions, andthey're going to have to make it in usually a particular timeframe. And theyfeel that pressure, and that can't be replicated, and it shouldn't be. It is anopportunity for them to understand really the value of the case, what thatmeans about their take home, what that means about their medical bills, and youlearn so much about your client's interest in trial at that point. A lot ofthem have a really sincere interest in going to trial until they're in thepressure cooker of mediation and they want this to end faster than you evercould have imagined.
So now you're getting a different sense of what theirtolerance is. Another huge part, obviously you might learn new facts that youdidn't know. Trust me, I know lawyers that say that just doesn't happen. I cantell you we are very successful lawyers. We have been doing this for a verylong time. We know what we're looking for. We have had clients, specifically aclient who lost his leg. This case went on for four years. We've reviewed allof his medical records, we've spoken to him. There's, in our minds, nothing wedon't know about the case. We go to mediation only to find out for the firsttime he's unable to get erect and never told anyone. So how are we ever goingto get that information? Were we going to get that at trial? It's almost adisservice, everything depends on the case. I'm not going to makepronouncements, but it is almost a disservice to not go to mediation becauseyou just absolutely don't know what you're going to find out.
It could be case law from the other side. It could beevidence from the other side. It could be new facts from your own client. Butwhat you will find out without a question is their tolerance for trial. Andthat alone could be worth it. There is an idea out there that you could justresolve things on the phone. Okay, you can. But if I resolve my leg off casewithout knowing that he had erectile dysfunction for four years and is nevergoing to get it back, did I just undersell and undervalue the case? Yes, Iabsolutely did, right? So I hope there is a genuine understanding that this isreal, these are real things that happen. I can just go on and on and on withexamples, but you can't know your client without knowing their actual reactionto numbers. And they will never have a real reaction to numbers outside of asetting where they're confronted with making a decision.
You can have a client go to deposition, they can performamazingly. Well, why is that? Why in their deposition are they so calm and socool? What's the difference between that and any other setting? Well, indeposition, money never comes up. I mean, this is like a key distinction. Moneyis never addressed. I mean maybe there's a hint that their medical bills are acertain amount of money, but their take home isn't addressed. What will getpaid and what won't get paid gets addressed. They're really just talking abouttheir experience, their feelings, and what injuries they have. They're reallynot on the spot in the way that we kind of perceive it. So they walk away fromdeposition as if they're ready for trial. Mediation's the next time that theyexperience something much more real and what's more realistic to happen, andthe perception that the mediator might have about the value of their case.
Sonya Palmer:
When thinking about negotiation, it's easy to conjure upthe notion of large sums of money scribbled on a piece of paper slid acrosslarge boardroom tables from one group of lawyers to another, but that's notwhat happens. And you use negotiation tactics in every aspect of your cases.How do your finely tuned negotiation skills play a role in your approach tojury selection?
Angela Bruno:
So this is what I'll say generally about negotiation styleand tactic. It's kind of what I had talked about earlier on. So much of dealmaking is getting the buy-in from the other side, right? And I talked aboutthis in some of my speeches where negotiating is really like dating. You wantto go on a date with someone that makes you happy, they ask you questions aboutyourself. There's a nice ping pong back and forth. It's very comforting.There's elements of dating that you could scientifically sort of break down.You ask two questions, then you ask one question, he pays, she pays, whateverit is, but if it's going well because you feel good about it. And when you'renegotiating, it's the same idea. Taking the whole pie doesn't make anyone feel good.That's not reasonable, that's not what goes well. You want to take that sameapproach with jury selection.
A lot of times what we talk about is if I'm the teamcaptain, the jury are my teammates, so we need a connection where I feel likethey understand what I'm talking about and they will rally and take the balland shoot when I need them to. And that's what you're trying to create. You'retrying to create a team work approach where they're invested in your side. Ifsomeone's crossing their arms and rolling their eyes, that's not a goodteammate. Sometimes hard when you're in trial, you have a lot of pressure fromthe judge often to pick a jury quickly. The judges, they have no tolerance forjury selection as a general rule. There are some that are a little bit moreforgiving, but a lot of times their calendars are so packed, they willbasically handcuff you, make it very difficult to not pick a jury within thosefirst 45 or however many people.
So you need to be scanning that room from minute onesaying to yourself, "Who doesn't want to be here because they need to begone." You have to have people that are at least vested in the process. Alot of times you might want someone that's good on paper or their answers aregood, and the second you sit down, they're yawning and rolling their eyes. Andso that's one of the reasons having two of us was always very helpful becausewhoever's standing up doing voir dire can't necessarily appreciate what these12 other people are doing while they're talking. And so you need eyes on them.It's in the silence that you kind of figure out, "Okay, you don't want tobe here." Or, "You just don't like me." Or, "You don't likeour case." Once you do a mini opening, you might kind of get a reactionfrom people that makes you realize they just don't like this type of case.
It's not going to go well for us. And so much of juryselection is negotiating, but it's in the silence. It's usually not what peopleare saying. People are really interested in saying what is socially acceptableand not always in what they actually feel. Because you're putting them on thespot. Most people don't like public speaking, they don't want to becontroversial. They pretty much just want to get out of there. Having thatconnection with them, whether it's through body language or even an anecdote oran analogy that they can relate to, so you can kind of tap into their naturalbias and whether they'd be a good fit is so critical.
Sonya Palmer:
What strategies from your negotiation toolbox do you useto prepare a witness to deliver clear persuasive testimony?
Angela Bruno:
So of course we do a lot of preparation. I mean,preparation is critical, but you can never be too confident on how someone'sgoing to be on the stand. You can't emphasize that enough. People that reallystruggle in a meeting can light up on the stand when they recognize that thisis their one chance. Other people can be great in meetings, but they get on thestand and they really say things so opposing to what you've talked about thewhole time, and that's why trial's so risky. There's just so many moreopportunities for things like that to happen. Just to kind of round it out,it's one of the reasons mediation and negotiating is so successful because youcan control those elements. I'm the one that tells the mediator, this person'sgoing to testify to these facts. Well, when you go to trial, the chance ofthose things coming out the way I just said them is very low, right?
I don't care how much you practice it. So a lot of what I tryto do is really talk to the client about the importance of trial, and that thisis what the jury is going to base their decision on. It's on you, right?They're not looking at me at this point. They are looking to you. You're theclient. They want to know from you how this affected your life. And I thinkthat's why something like mediation, but even depositions are good opportunityto start assessing your client in whether or not they can actually deliver.More often than not, I would say they cannot. It's not an easy skill. It's notas easy as it seems. It's just kind of telling your story. It's veryintimidating. Some people are soft-spoken. That really hurts your casesignificantly because no matter how much you tell someone that is soft-spokento speak up, they don't get louder.
They just don't. And juries don't like that. They want tohear you, and they want to hear clearly. They're already annoyed. This is avery long day. So there's a lot of things you can do to try to help ensure thatyou're going to get a good testimony. But if you already see the handwriting onthe wall that this person just can't deliver, then you have to be honest withthem that perhaps trial isn't the right route for you. Trial is great whenthere's no money on the table or it's so low, it's unjustifiable. Then you justdig in and you prep your client the best you can, and if your client's notgreat, you prep the friends around them. You've got to find someone orsomething that's going to hook your case if it's not going to be the client.Because sometimes they are the best people.
I mean, I've had cases where the client, although highlyaccomplished, intelligent, achieved in their career kind of crumbles becausethey're male, they don't want to admit how severe their injuries are. And sothey do horrible on the stand, which can help you because then the wife comesin and just unloads. You see what I mean? You can take a negative and make it apositive, but you got to have that positive. If there's no wife or neighbor orsister or friend or coworker that can explain why this person's acting this waybecause it's so common, I do it myself. You get injured and you excuse away howbad it is because you just want to get better versus really being genuine andauthentic about how much it's ruining your life.
Sonya Palmer:
How do your negotiation abilities help you develop andsell a compelling overall case and narrative?
Angela Bruno:
The whole undercurrent of negotiations and learning aboutpeople is understanding really the heart of what's going on. So for example,the leg off case, it was a horrific case. There's no question just the facts aswe knew them for four years, but when you're then confronted with a new factthat there's erectile dysfunction and this person has hidden it for four years,you can't just take that and say, "Okay, well now that's the story."You need to take some time and step away, and now you got to find out a lotmore information about what's been going on. How has this really affected you?Because that story went far and deep, which you would imagine that it would,right? So negotiating some of it is just in timing, and that's the interestingpart of negotiating. People think it's just you're coming up with the rightnumber.
It's like, "How do you come up with the right numberif you don't have the right facts? How do you come up with the right facts ifyou don't have the time to discover them?" It is like a hundred differentthings coming together to finally create what should be the outcome. Andsometimes, hey, it can go the other way. You learn bad facts about your clientand the value of the case goes down. And sometimes you want to make a dealbefore you find that out. Sometimes there's warning flags that this is goingsouth, so it goes both ways. Time is not always on your side. I would argue itis often not the way to go. More time on these cases often leads to biggerproblems. The leg off case is a rare example that also happens, right? I meanwe're always in the position where we're balancing time and money spent versusvalue of the case, or we should be always balancing.
Sonya Palmer:
It gives you critical insight to clients. You've mentionedan example where you learned something that then affected it. How do youcounsel your clients then to get the most value from mediation?
Angela Bruno:
Right. Okay, so when you're about to go to mediation, mostclients have never been to mediation. I mean you would hope they have neverbeen. A lot of time is spent on explaining to them what to expect, and it'svery different today than pre COVID because 90% of mediations are now happeningon Zoom. It's a very different environment. Why is it so different? And part ofthe reason it's so different is because we're what they call people thosekeyboard warriors, right? People act so different behind a screen, and youdon't have the same personal connections that you had before. Now this doesn'tmean that mediations aren't going as well, they're going equally as well, Iwould say, but you have to take different things into consideration now. A lotof clients, a lot, because of COVID want to do mediations from home. I willargue that that is a bad idea a vast majority of the time.
If your client can come to your office, that is the betterway of doing it because what I see happens is they are emotionally checked out.They are much more argumentative, and the risk of them not taking a deal whilesitting at home cooking dinner, it just goes up like 90%. They also are muchmore likely to argue why your fees are so high. It's my rule that they will atleast come to the office because they don't appreciate or see the amount ofwork and effort you're putting into this mediation. They just see your screenturn off. They see you come back on, they ask what happened. When they're inthe office with me, they see me up, down texting, scrambling for documents, andwhen they don't see that, then they think you're not doing anything.
And I don't care if you get them $3 million, they seetheir take home, they see your take home and they don't think it's justified,and you end up with really big problems over something that should be a happymoment. Again, it's not about the results, it's about how they feel about it.So if you want your client to feel happy about it, they need to be in your officewatching you fight for them. Is there a client that sits at home and says,"Angela, you're the greatest thing ever"? Yeah, there is. Is it lesslikely and rare? Absolutely. We've gotten people hotel rooms just right by ouroffice if they want to drive down the night before. I mean it's that importantto have them here.
Sonya Palmer:
You have renowned skills as a negotiator and mediator. Ifyou're talking to new attorneys specifically, what are the most importantskills to develop in order to become an effective negotiator?
Angela Bruno:
So the most important skills for an effective negotiatoris one, you need to understand your bottom line in a very real way. So thisisn't, "Okay, my client has a shoulder injury. Those are somewhere between350 and 500. I called a couple friends and that's what it's worth." Imean, it's a good starting point. Trust me, you need to ask people, okay? Butthen you need to look at your case, your client, are they on drugs? Did theynot do any rehabilitation? Did they not do physical therapy? There's so manythings that clients do in the positive and the negative that are going toaffect your case value specifically. And your venue is a huge component. Areyou going to get the same in Bakersfield as you are in Orange County, as youare in San Francisco? The numbers aren't the same. We don't get paid the same.
These results aren't the same. I often tell people, youshould have a trial lawyer on speed dial that will take your calls. We talk totons of lawyers, we're not taking a fee, we're not co-counseling. They're justasking our opinion, it betters our skills. It helps us see what's going on outthere. If the case goes south, great, maybe now we're invested we can try andhelp try it for you. Most likely not, but we are happy to give our knowledgebecause you're just rising the level of these settlements across the board. Idon't want someone down the street settling a shoulder case for 200 grand. Imean that's just going to bring it down for all of us. I'd rather explain tothem why this case is worth more like 700, or maybe it is worth 200.
Speaking to someone that goes to trial gives you so muchammunition with your own client to explain, "Hey, Google this lawyer, Italked to them for 30 minutes. Assume you don't go to trial yourself. This issomeone that would take this case. They're valuing it at this. I also spoke toAngela or someone else that specializes in mediation. I know what things aregoing for in mediation in certain venues because I've probably had that case.Just like everything in life, what it's settling for today maybe isn't what itsettled for 10 years ago." I mean interestingly, 10 years ago, trying toget an adjuster to agree to the medical expenses for a chiropractor wasliterally like pulling teeth. It was whack science, it was unnecessary. Today,10 years later, they'll pay every single penny for a chiropractor because theyjust don't want you going into surgery. The environments change. Maybe the lawsdon't change, but the way that they are interpreted and applied do, it can bevery helpful to have people that specialize in mediation or specialize in trialin the moment, not someone that did it 20 years ago.
How is this coming out? What evidence is getting into atrial? What's getting left out during motions in limine? These things changequickly. It evolves, and I think having a real case evaluation with a realnumber is the biggest fault because people go into these mediations... I hatethis, it actually makes me insane, and I wish I were lying, but I'm not. Theyjust think a shoulder case is worth X amount, so that's my bottom line. Youcannot do that. Your bottom line has to be very specific to your client andyour client's needs. I mean every client with that same shoulder injury isgoing to have massively different medical expenses. One's going to be onMedicaid, one's going to have private insurance, one's going to have noinsurance. That completely changes their in pocket would ultimately be, howmuch medical specials you're going to have, what your reimbursement rate'sgoing to look like.
You really have to develop the whole case to then have abottom line. Mediation is not your attempt to just throw numbers around and seeif you can get the highest that you can. You want to go to mediation like yougo to trial. You've prepped the client on expectations. You've prepped theclient on case valuation. You have a clear understanding, at least to theamount that you can have a clear understanding, their interest in mediation anda settlement versus trial. Their interest in a settlement because the moneycomes in 30 to 90 days. I mean, are you explaining that to your client? Rightnow is this very interesting environment because the amount of money you canget in interest is very high. You're not a financial planner, but you mightwant to explain to your clients that if I get you 200 grand in your pockettoday and you invest that for three years, but we don't go to trial for threeyears, do you know how high of a verdict we would have to have to justify nottaking this money?
I mean, these are real discussions about what's going tohappen versus, "A shoulders worth 250." That's, I don't know, it'salmost malpractice. It's like, "Yes, that's a starting point, but there'sso much more to it." I mean, if you find out that this person has cancerand is likely going to die, don't you think the timing of mediation is going tobe a little bit more important and the value of what you're willing to settlefor would look a little different than a 22-year-old going to college? And itshould, right?
Sonya Palmer:
100%.
Angela Bruno:
That should matter to you. It should matter to the client.
Sonya Palmer:
You've mentioned the heart of things, and aside fromtechnical negotiation, negotiating tactics, a lot of what you're talking aboutsounds like mindset or even a mental framework. How is that different? What isthat approach?
Angela Bruno:
I think it's different because again, my interest andwhere this all started from was I wanted to build something. I want to makedeals. I want people to close this chapter and move on with something biggerand better, and put them in a better position. It's not about anything morethan that. It's something horrific happened to you, and I'm going to try toposition you the best I can moving forward. And I've watched clients justthrive in otherwise daunting future life. You just get a lot out of thatknowing that your insight, your interest, your ability to see the big picturethrough the weeds can completely change people's lives. And I think if you havethat temperament and you have that interest, once you taste that, you can'tun-taste it, right? It's like part of why we have stayed very small, becausewe're touching every single case so personally, and I think our clientsrecognize that
Sonya Palmer:
Beyond providing a dollar amount or justice, it's alsoclosure for the client.
Angela Bruno:
Closure is so important. I mean, there's scientificstudies that show that people's stress level increases their pain levelssignificantly, and so they can't get over... And I explain this, I hope anyonelistening to this podcast will take this and use it with their clients becauseit's true. Clients can't recover during litigation. That is one of the biggestissues with litigation is that their pain and their injuries don't heal. Andthis idea that you can, even for some of these people, a 10% increase ordecrease in pain or increase in their walking ability is life-changing, right?And if the stress and the drama of litigation is preventing that, I take thatinto consideration. There's not a client that wishes litigation went longer,right? They don't even know how happy they're going to be when it's done. So ifI'm looking at a case and we're in mediation and the client's telling me overand over and over, "I won't settle unless I get $500,000 in mypocket."
And I know it's really more likely going to be 350 inmediation, not at the end. I'm talking early on. You have to have your fingeron the pulse of what's happening, start explaining these things to them,probably for the 50th time. Because it's in that moment, in that pressurecooker that it will sense. So you say, "You've been telling me that youhave headaches every night and your whole body's in pain, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This money can change your life, not because ofthe money, but also the stress of having to sit there and listen to this. Thestress of having the other side say, 'This is 50% your fault.' This does affectyou. It affects your mental state, it affects your psyche, it affects everycell in your body." It is nice, some clients come back and say, "It'sbeen three years, I just want to say hi." But for the most part they'relike, "Bye." Right?
Sonya Palmer:
Yep. See ya.
Angela Bruno:
Doesn't matter how much money I get them, they have movedon and that's really what you want, right? I don't want an attachment here.It's like, "Good, your life..." They'll follow me on social media, Ican see they're doing well, and that's good enough for me.
Sonya Palmer:
That works. Excellent. You mentioned bullying earlier andhow maybe that's not actually a negotiation tactic. Are there othermisconceptions around what negotiation is?
Angela Bruno:
Yeah, there's this really bizarre idea that you're goingto announce your best and final at 30 minutes in, and everyone's just going todeal with it, and then you're going to come back seven hours later, and they'reeither going to have met your best and final or they're not. It's the same wayI view dating. If a guy comes to my door and says, "I'm going to marryyou, I have the ring." I'm just waiting for the six months to go by untilyou understand that this is what's going to happen. There's a 100% chance we'renot getting married, we're not even getting on the date. So why do you thinkthat's going to work when you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars,hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars, there has to be abuy-in. You can't just announce that you know this is the value of the case, oryou know this is what it's going to settle for.
If the guy knows he's going to marry me, then he needs tozip it and then take the steps that a normal person would take to get to thefinish line. So it's the same idea. I think people are really naive to whynegotiating works, why mediation works, and until they really experience it,and I think even sometimes when they do experience it, they still... Because Idon't think they understand the real delicate balance that's happening, theymay still think it happens the way I said, where it's just like, "Poof,this number came out of nowhere." And that's the problem. If you don't seewhat we're talking about, then you'll have perceived it that we all just agreedit was eight million. And sometimes clients can do that, and I will sayattorneys might be part of the problem, but clients are a bigger part of theproblem because this isn't their job.
So, so much in a mediation is not just with the mediator,but it is with your client. How much they hear and don't hear becomes veryimportant because you're trying to control their perception of the information.Like I said, if they're sitting at home and they're not watching you work,their perception is you did nothing. If they're sitting in the mediation andyou are doing nothing, their perception is you did nothing, right? So you arecreating an environment that will get you to the finish line, and you have toalways perceive it that way. If you need to have a serious conversation withthe mediator about maybe your client just announced to you that they reallycan't handle trial, previously made this big stink about if you don't take thisnumber, we're going to trial. But now they announced they didn't. Is it a goodidea to make that announcement to the mediator in front of your client?
No, it is not. And a lot of attorneys don't get that. It'sa fact, they don't want to go trial. So I'm just going to say it. Well, youshouldn't do that. You should always have a mediator cell phone number or havea private Zoom room in another room and explain some of those delicate thingsbecause your client's going to freak out and shut down and not like you. Andthen you're supposed to be the same person that convinces them to take thedeal. So much is just you have to go into these mediations playing the longgame, and I often will only agree to full day mediations because of that. I'mnot saying I've never done a four-hour mediation. I have, it's so rare. Theissues need to be very narrow. The difference in what they've offered and whatI'm demanding needs to be small because most of the time you need that time.You need that time.
Sonya Palmer:
As we've explored the intricacies of negotiations withinlegal practice, it's important to consider its broader applications.Negotiation skills extend beyond the courtroom, and can significantly impactvarious aspects of a lawyer's career. Angela's insights provide valuablestrategies for navigating challenges unique to women in law.
Angela Bruno:
We're still women working in a male dominated environment.I mean, we've come a long way, but I think our guard is still very much uptowards men and towards women, and obviously it's something we're all stillworking on and we want to get better at. But I have noticed the men in thisindustry still have a much more transparent and collegial relationship thanwomen do. I am trying to change that, and one of the ways that personally I doit, I'm not saying I'm doing everything I can or there aren't better ideas outthere, but genuinely being happy for other women's success, whether it'sreposting a verdict they got, or I've specifically and recently had someonesay, "Oh, I heard you were speaking at that women's conference. I mean, isit all like woo woo and just like nonsense?" And I said, "No."And I give very specific examples of topics of discussion, what lawyer addressthose topics, their insights, and really giving validation to our women'sgroups because I was a little stunned that that was the interpretation, likewe're all just day spying and hanging out and talking about health and fitness.
But that was really what these guys thought. Everyoneknows I'm talking about negotiation, which they're like, "That's cool, butwere you the only one?" So I could have said, "Oh yeah, someonetalked about health and fitness." Because someone did. But I specificallychose to not even talk about that and really talk about the people that weredoing things on the evidence code, discovery, deposition skills, voir dire.Because that's what they don't know about, and I have to change the narrativearound it. And that's again, another example of me negotiating in my everydaylife. I'm negotiating in my mind for women. I don't want people even talkinglike that. I'm not going to say, "Yeah, we all went to the pool for fourhours," even if we did, because you're just going to water down the point.And I've talked about this in negotiation or mediation before.
If a bad fact comes out, everyone's natural inclination isto explain it away and talk about it. And one of my main points when negotiatingis do not breathe air into it. If someone announces this massively bad fact, Iliterally act like the building's on fire before I address it. I will find away to just curve away. And I think in life you have to do that too. Someone'sconfronting you about something that you know is stigmatized, but you want tochange that narrative, then you need to deflect and grow what you know isreally more the truth. And I do try to do that with women in the law because Ithink it's massively important. I think we have equal skillset, so I don't feellike I'm lying.
Sonya Palmer:
No, 100%, and I don't know if I'm doing enough or theright thing, but I think that course correcting in the day to day when thosesituations pop up is extremely important. Because there are big ideas on socialmedia and these things get said, but I actually think that those, I guess,smaller interactions are as important, if not more. Excellent. What gives youthe greatest hope and optimism for the future of women in the legal industry?
Angela Bruno:
Oh, I think these conferences that are women based arejust, "Round of applause, ladies." I mean, it makes me beam. It'sunbelievable. It's truly unbelievable. And I have noticed men have startedcoming to them as guests and I don't like that. And I wish that would stopbecause there's something much better happening when it's truly all women. Iget, we all have partners or spouses or, I don't know, your little brother. Butbeing women, being able to be ourselves when we're normally in an environmentwe really can't be. You can't when you're in these mixed or primarily maleevents. And so seeing women come out in force has been so awesome.
I'm now part of a texting chat group with all trialattorneys, and that wouldn't have happened, I mean, why did that not happen?I've been doing this for over a decade, what took so long? But I'll tell you,it's because all my chats were with men. And now it's like we're finallyleaning on each other, which is awesome. And even on social media, I feel like it'sso much better where women are really appreciating what we're doing for eachother. We're supporting each other, we're going to each other's events. Andit's just been totally amazing for me especially because I'm married to andpartners with a male trial lawyer, I became very much just part of the men'sgroup.
Sonya Palmer:
Thank you so much to Angela for her insights today. Let'srecap a few of the takeaways. Negotiation is an art that extends far beyond thecourtroom. It's a skill we can and should apply in all aspects of our legalcareers and personal lives. As Angela showed us, the way we frame ourexperiences, like how we discuss women's conferences, can help shift publicperception and ultimately negotiate better outcomes for women in law. Successrelies on preparation. Before you step into any negotiation, make sure you'vedone your homework. Know your bottom line, research those case values, and getyour client ready for what's ahead, and give all that workplace to shine. Setthe stage, the environment you choose holds power. As Angela pointed out,creating the right setting for negotiation can make all the difference.
Whether it's insisting on in-person meetings or managingyour client's perceptions, those details matter. And finally, always play thelong game. Resist the urge to force a quick settlement. Sometimes the bestoutcomes come from patience and strategic thinking. If you've found thiscontent insightful, inspiring, or just made you smile, please share thisepisode with a trailblazer in your life. For more about Angela, check out ourshow notes. And while you're there, please leave us a review or a five starrating. It really helps others discover the show. And I will see you next weekon LawHer where we'll shed light on how another of the brightest and boldestwomen in the legal industry climb to the top of her field. Until next time,stay inspired, stay empowered, and keep making waves in the legal industry.You've got this.
