Transcript
Kelly Deutsch
We really are committed to doing the absolute best we can for these families.
Sonya Palmer
Delivering the very best for your clients means knowing what you want and executing a vision to the highest standards.
Kelly Deutsch
And I think the thing that I’ve learned the most from doing this type of work is that there’s so much unconditional love out there.
Sonya Palmer
According to a recent survey, only 19% of managing partners in US law firms are female. We would like to see that change. Hello and welcome to LawHer the show where we celebrate the trailblazing attorneys and entrepreneurs who are changing the game for women in the legal field. Be inspired by their stories, learn from their mistakes and look forward to the future they’re helping build for the next generation of women in law. I am Sonya Palmer, your host and VP of operations at Rankings.io. The SEO agency of choice for elite law firms. This is LawHer. When you run a business, the weight of the decision falls to you for better or for worse, but you also have the ability to pivot quickly and adapt to the unexpected and create something you are truly proud of. Executive producer and CEO of verdict videos. Kelly Deutsch is an unparalleled expert in pulling out the raw truth of every client story and delivering a compassionate taleto the jury. The documentary style videos, she and her team create allowed juries and judges to connect with the plaintiff in a very human way. Today, we discussed stepping into the role of CEO and the challenges that can come with it. We also discuss finding your path through intuition and finding what lights you up. Let’s dive in.
Kelly Deutsch
In high school, I was really good at photography and I was a good short story writer and I loved history. I had a passion for third world politics and I really wanted to write and produce political and historical documentaries. That is literally why I went to film school.
Sonya Palmer
That’s a great recipe for a filmmaker, a history, photography, and short story writing. Yes, that was a good choice.
Kelly Deutsch
It seemed only logical.
Sonya Palmer
Yes. Then how did you end up in the legal space?
Kelly Deutsch
When I moved out here to California, and I went to USC. I just kept on meeting people in television. And I took that as a sign. I just went with it. I know everything I’m going to say today is going to date myself, this is before the history channel.
Sonya Palmer
No.
Kelly Deutsch
And so there wasn’t a whole lot of avenues. I am truly an introvert. So I wasn’t the kind of person that was going to go out there and make my own production company and start bankrolling my own documentaries. But, regardless I kept on meeting people in television. And so I just went, I just took it as a sign. That’s what I was meant to do. So I did it..
Sonya Palmer
Will you fill us in a little bit on sort of your experience before starting at Verdict Videos.
Kelly Deutsch
I worked for a production company that did a lot of promotions for movies for special events. That company was pretty innovative, had a lot of technology behind it. So I also did a lot of their marketing videos. I started out literally as a tape operations coordinator and then soon, post production coordinator. And then as a post-production coordinator, I was scheduling all of the edit bay time. And so I scheduled myself to have some time to produce some videos for the network. And from there, I, of course got promoted to writer, producer, and other things.
Sonya Palmer
Will you tell us a little bit about Verdict Videos and how you help attorneys and firms win larger verdicts and settlements.
Kelly Deutsch
Verdict Videos is a production company that produces day in the life videos and settlement documentaries for legal cases. So a day in the life video would be literally us going in and filming someone’s day. What someone’s day is it’s not reasonable to bring the jury in, to see What the damages are and see what the medical care that’s needed, the future care. So we literally go in, in the morning videotape everything that happens during that day, edit that down to about 12 minutes. And then that gets shown to a jury. Our other products are for mediation and we take the case, all the information in the case, we do interviews and it looks like you’re watching 60 minutes or 2020, except it’s about the case. And it can be very effective in mediation. But this isn’t just for catastrophic injury cases. This can be for employment cases. It can be for medical malpractice cases. It can be for a lot of different types of cases.
Sonya Palmer
Yes, I had the opportunity to see a clip of one of the videos at the conference of that. they’re extremely well done. Many women takeover existing businesses you took over as CEO for Verdict Videos. What was that path like to CEO?
Kelly Deutsch
My business partner had decided to retire. And so it was only natural that I stepped into that role. I will say that it took about a good eight to 10 months to make that adjustment and I didn’t really have someone to rely on to make those decisions. So on a personal level, it’s all about now I’m responsible. I have to take ownership and that’s scary to admit that you’ve made the wrong decision. And have to live with that. But it’s okay to make the wrong decision. It’s okay. To maybe allocate funds that didn’t, make a return for us. You gotta live with that. And to be honest, now I don’t have anybody to blame when things go wrong. It’s like you wanted to do that. No. Now I’m making those decisions. But there’s also no kudos for the good decision. Okay. That worked out it’s we got to move on, go on to the next step. All right. And so it, it really was an eight to 10 months adjustment that I had to make taking on the burden of all of that responsibility, all of those decisions.
Sonya Palmer
Yes, I think in business, particularly business today that not taking a risk is a larger risk than being cautious. So to risk a financial decision or a hire I think you have to do that in order to stay competitive and be in business today.
Kelly Deutsch
COVID is the perfect example. You either adapt or you sink, you don’t survive. And we adapted immediately. That helped us survive through COVID and we literally had the best year ever during COVID.
Sonya Palmer
What types of decisions did you make? What were some of the ones that you feel were the most pivotal?
Kelly Deutsch
I got PPE equipment immediately. I got full suits. In the very, very beginning, those first two weeks, we had no idea how the virus was being transmitted, but I got our team full suits to go out and continue to do interviews and masks. Made the decision to sponsor a pretty expensive webinars series had really just saved our lives. We, there were at least 700 eyeballs on us for those first four months, which was just incredible.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. Where a lot of businesses were trying to figure out how to go remote. You don’t have an option at all. You still have to go out and do the work. So to get that equipment for your team and to protect your team, but then also protect the people that you were going to interview,
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, that was number one. I wanted people to feel safe with us coming in our homes. We did do some zoom interviews, but as it’s very difficult to connect emotionally with someone. Over this electronic medium. So that is not our first preference, but we will do it. There’s really something about the face-to-face. There’s really something about sitting five feet away from someone and asking them what their day is like or how that employer abusing them for so many years, how that’s impacted their self-esteem, their selfworth. Their future. Interviewing wives that have lost their husbands. All of that stuff is very difficult to get an, a visceral response over zoom.
Sonya Palmer
I could go into their homes. And like you kept saying to literally witnessed their day to day. I imagine it’s extremely powerful. So,
Kelly Deutsch
Correct? yeah.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. CEO is one of the loneliest positions. It can be very isolating. did you envision a position of leadership?
Kelly Deutsch
Oh, I am cursed with being in charge. My entire life, It’s just crazy. I don’t understand it. I literally I was out of work maybe in somewhere in 1997, 99 maybe. And a friend of mine was doing dressing for a set decorating.
For big parties, like MTV was having a party and he’s Hey, we need some extra hands, just some extra bodies. Do you want to come? So I went and I’ve never done this before. I’m not a decorator or designer or anything like that. And literally they got everybody in the room and said, okay you can be the coordinator. And it’s like, why me?
Sonya Palmer
You attribute that to anything. And then as an introvert as well.
Kelly Deutsch
I really don’t know.
Sonya Palmer
Its lucky.
Kelly Deutsch
It’s not though, because even things that I enjoy on a personal level, somehow I become the manager. I become the coordinator. I’m the person who’s now organizing everything. And believe me, it’s not something that I volunteer. It’s something that just happens that way. So the things I’m most passionate about, I don’t get to enjoy because I ended up having to run it.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah, that’s not a hat you can necessarily easily take off,
Kelly Deutsch
It yeah, around. maybe it’s just my bossy personality.
Sonya Palmer
I have a bossy personality, so I relate.
Kelly Deutsch
But let’s not disparage bossy personalities. Hey, we get things done. I’m a person that knows exactly what I want. I know exactly how things should go. I’m a problem solver. I know how to adapt to any, situation. And I believe that there are always solutions. Always to every single problem. There are multiple options, multiple solutions. Maybe that’s where I get in trouble.
Sonya Palmer
That sounds like you’re right where you should be. So do you have any mentors or coaches or people in your life that you look to for guidance. Who has helped you along the way?
Kelly Deutsch
Oh, my partner, Mary Beth Mary Beth is a lawyer. She’s a commercial real estate lawyer. Yes. but she has been absolutely invaluable and guiding me advising me not on our production, day to day business, but the overall type of ex her knowledge and experience in the law and dealing with business has really helped me quite a bit.
Sonya Palmer
Kelly has worked with so many business leaders. I wanted to know what universal traits make a good business leaders great.
Kelly Deutsch
I think the innovators, of course And I think it’s important to never lose touch of people. I believe in a people economy. I think the best leadership is where people give back that keep on reinvesting in the company which is something I try to do. So I think those types of leaders and the the type of leader that doesn’t forget about the people. every business is a business, but it can’t just be a business. You have to not lose touch of humanity.
Sonya Palmer
I completely agree. I think something you said earlier is also a key trait that I have seen at, which is ownership and accountability. Being able to say that was a bad move, that’s on me can go a long way for the company and for the people I think that helps focus people.
Kelly Deutsch
You said it a lot better than I did. You’re right. Accountability. Owning up to your mistakes, recognizing them, not trying to blame other people even if it’s not your fault apologize and try to do better next time. Yeah.
Sonya Palmer
As both CEO and executive producer, I think something a lot of leaders struggle with in smaller companies, agencies, firms, how do you work on the business and in it?
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, that’s probably the biggest challenge. Because everything that we do is subjective. It’s very difficult to find the. A clone, someone who sees things like I do sees the production, sees the videos who understands the mix of the things that we need to communicate for the mediator, the things that we need to communicate to opposing counsel, what’s important, what’s not important how to streamline and not streamline. All of those things are very subjective. And I, like I said earlier, I know exactly what I want. I know . Exactly how the story needs to be told. I understand the attorneys and their language and I speak their language and. I’ve tried to teach others how to communicate with the lawyers and use the terms that they use so that they understand that we understand. And trying to impart that on an employee or even a business partner is very difficult. Yes, I’m very hands-on and which is why my personal life suffers, it takes a lot of time to be involved in these productions and then also have the time and the energy to manage all of the things that comes along with the business, all of the different types of taxes and State and federal things that we need to manage. Plus, growing the company, marketing. All of those things need to be addressed. And it takes A toll, especially we are a small business, we’re also producing about a hundred and thirty, a hundred and fifty, a hundred and sixty videos a year.
Sonya Palmer
A lot.
Kelly Deutsch
Oh my gosh. It really.
Sonya Palmer
Oftentimes people who are very good at their craft then find themselves managing it. They’re excellent technicians and specialists and then leaders, but then you add in those things that you’ve never had to think about before, like taxes and how do you get leads? How do you close leads? All of that stuff can be very overwhelming. Are there any resources, tools, or support systems that have been beneficial to you? Do you utilize anything?
Kelly Deutsch
I don’t know I’m not, I am failing in that regard and using tools to help.
Sonya Palmer
I don’t know that it’s failing. I think that. part of the reason we started this is to help connect and build support systems and create tools and a network around women like yourself, so it’s not necessarily a surprise to me that there’s an absence of it. Within the legal industry with female lawyers, but then extension, female entrepreneurs, female business owners.We’re trying to close that gap.There are, there’s a lot of design shops, like web design shops and they tend to have little communities and hubs where they’ll get together and they’ll put the little heads together. Or, something that’s a little more tangible, a little more day to day, something that you can call up and say, Hey, I’m struggling with this. What’s going on? To take that and then transplant it into our normal day to day life.
Kelly Deutsch
I do feel really isolated. I, this is an incredibly niche business. There are just a handful of companies like mine across the country. But do what I do and we’re all competitors. And I don’t think that, there is a resource for us. I have on occasion tried to better our productions. I have reached out to people that I know in the industry. Of course, I still have friends in television and I will, ask them. For advice, but beyond that, no, I don’t have any type of outreach. And when I do decide to maybe call a lawyer friend and ask them for advice, I never do it. I just don’t want to invade somebody else’s time and space.
Sonya Palmer
Interesting.
Kelly Deutsch
That’s the introvert in me.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. Yeah. Introvert. I understand. I never want to be a burden. Even if I need help.
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. And is that a woman thing or is that a, an introvert thing? I don’t know, but yeah, that’s how I, that’s why I don’t really bother people for testimonials. It’s why are they going to give me one?
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s probably both an introverted woman might be something that Maybe it need to get better at!
Kelly Deutsch
Definitely. I don’t doubt that someone wouldn’t take my call and talk me through stuff,
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. Your trajectory has been hyper-specific. How would you educate people about what you do? How would you get them to understand that this even exists?
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. There’s, I could sit here and talk to you about it all day long and it wouldn’t make any sense sending exemplars out having an opportunity to talk to. And show exemplars really is the only way to to convey what it is that we do. I could tell you that it looks like 60 minutes in 20, 20, it’s your case. But that really doesn’t convey a picture is worth a thousand words. A video is worth a million, I think women lawyers have a mentality about spending money that it’s there’s a lot of fear around that that it may not be enough, the fear of not having enough is a lot of what I sense? When I’ve participated in women only event I think it’s a something that has been projected on us And I always refer to that as, stepping over a dime to pick up a nickel that investing in a web presence. Investing in your cases? Yes, that will take some money, but the rewards in the end is really what we need to focus on. And I know that from starting verdict videos, We needed to go in a hundred percent and we needed not to be afraid to spend that marketing money upfront. And, reap those rewards later on which we have. And I think that women lawyers, women, business owners shouldn’t be afraid to make that investment in themselves because it will come back. It will take time and it will come back. It just, and everything works. Everything works. Email marketing campaigns, print ads online marketing, it all works. Cold calls, everything works, everything.
Sonya Palmer
Yes, everything works. It’s no longer an option. I think with the pandemic. Things were already competitive. Legal is one of, if not the most competitive industry, it just shoved everybody online. And where traditional media, which probably does still work billboards, TV that has now taken a back seat to the digital space. And yes, to have an investment plan, a marketing plan on how you’re going to get and collect leads and turn them into cases is vital for every firm right now. So I also think women think they’re going to do it all themselves. Even when they have money. Okay. They can probably remember a time where they didn’t. And I can do marketing. I can do accounting. I can do these things. I’ll figure it out. And then they’re burnt out and they’re not doing anything as well as they could be doing because they’re trying to do everything. So I definitely think that’s an aspect to it as well. But yes, spend the money, take the risk, have a plan. It will definitely be rewarded.
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. And, Be 100% invested in your success. Because, yeah, it’s going to take time and, I really had struggled. I struggled a lot in the beginning because I thought we were going to be like uber successful overnight. And it took three years to turn a profit five years to really start to snowball and become successful. That was really hard on my ego. I definitely recognize that I had some kind of like exceptionalism complex that I was going to be different. We were going to just knock it out of the park right away. And that really taught me a lot of patients and how to readjust that ego of mine, for sure. And then again, have to adjust to once we started becoming really successful. Not to be arrogant because that became a problem for me. I would catch my arrogance and be like, oh my God, I can’t believe I’m this much of a jerk, but then have to dial that back and then realize no we’re not exceptional. arrogance is really ugly, but go back to being a normal person, a human person.
Sonya Palmer
Normal person. Would you expound on that a little bit more? What were some of the struggles you saw in the beginning? What was limiting you from being where you thought you would be?
Kelly Deutsch
Nobody knew us. And I think so many attorneys are superstitious and they only wanted to use who they already knew. They, I think we’re worried about investing and a project with people they didn’t know without a track record. We are based in Pasadena, but we started our business in San Diego and I took two and a half hour drive that we would make to go to meetings. We made some videos. That weren’t for our cases, but we made the production anyway so that we could use those as samples. We it’s a small community in San Diego, but we started our business down there and then moved up once we had the reputation and then enough samples to be able to show other lawyers. Then we were able to be trusted.
Sonya Palmer
I liked what you said too about ego adjustment. I think. A lot of women, particularly women in leadership roles or lawyers that attract that sort of competitiveness desire to win and succeed, not achieving can really be detrimental to a person that needs to achieve or wants to achieve. So to adjust those expectations, not take it personal. And then again, when you do succeed to not let it go to your head both can be very difficult and hard on a person.
Kelly Deutsch
Thank you. Yes, it was a real.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. I am competitive by nature and I work Rankings. We are very competitive. We like to win, so I think that’s advice that I can take. So thank you.
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. I am a former athlete. But, and so winning is definitely coming out on top is definitely something that drives me.
Sonya Palmer
What was your sport?
Kelly Deutsch
I played competitive baseball.
Sonya Palmer
Nice.
Kelly Deutsch
I did get paid to play. They tried to start up a league of their own again. And it only lasted two and a half years, but I literally got paid to play baseball.
Sonya Palmer
That’s so fun. What position?
Kelly Deutsch
I was mostly the bullpen catcher for most of it, but second base. But my real position is third base. I played a lot of competitive women’s baseball. That was amateur. So a third base is really my spot, but I pitched a lot too. So I was a pitcher.
Sonya Palmer
That’s very cool. Very fun. Do you feel as someone who is in the legal space, but not a lawyer, do you feel like there are more women lawyers? Are you coming to contact with more women lawyers now?
Kelly Deutsch
Definitely. Then when I first started 12 years ago, there, there are a lot more women now owning their own firms going out on their own or playing the role of managing partner or. Being more in the limelight of different law firms, definitely. And a lot of younger women for sure are stepping into those roles, which is really great to see. We’ve always had the Patty Glazers and other pretty big and powerful women, but man, they’re a way alone at the top of their game. And now we’ve got a lot more women filtering in in smaller firms and even the medium-sized firms.
Sonya Palmer
Our first guest, Sarah Williams talks about how social media has been the great equalizer. And now every one has these platforms where they can go to promote themselves, which I think has been very useful in getting more lawyers to promote themselves, but then to inspire other lawyers do the exact same thing. What does your day to day look like?
Kelly Deutsch
Watching existing productions. So the team goes out either I’ll do interviews or the team goes out, does interviews, they come back, they, I script gets written and I’ll look at the script. I’ll make revisions. Watching then then a proof is made and then I’ll watch the proof and make revisions. That’s a lot of what I do consulting on a lot of phone calls setting up new projects, that type of thing. I’m looking at the accounting, that type of stuff.
Sonya Palmer
What you do can be very trying. You’re seeing the devastating effects of an accident or an injury. And I think in order to be good at what you do, a level of emotional investment is required, how do you deal with that?
Kelly Deutsch
I cry a lot. Yeah. I could interview a family. I could write the script. I could be involved in all of the post-production all of the editing. And I will watch the video at the end and I will cry because we are all of us are that invested and trying to make it right. This is real reality, right? Because when someone gets injured and even if somebody gets fired from a job that they’ve had for a long time, if somebody is denied health insurance, we’re talking about, insurance, bad faith, all of these things just don’t impact the plaintiff impacts so many family members, such a huge ripple effect. And I think the thing that I’ve learned the most from doing this type of work is that there’s so much unconditional love out there. And people people’s lives are truly harmed. They will never, ever be the same. That definitely has taken a huge toll. And yes. I cry a lot for sure. And, I think that’s why I have my dogs written into the lease here at the office. I’m bringing my dogs to the office definitely helps some levity there. They’re funny, they’re sweet. They’re sensitive. That’s something as well.
Sonya Palmer
You volunteer for German shepherd rescue groups. Do you want to share anything about that?
Kelly Deutsch
I want to say that I’m from New Jersey. I am a naturally cynical person. I am not naturally a happy person. I had to ask myself, where do I find joy? And I find joy in storytelling, my work, but also in giving back volunteering and expecting nothing in return is really where I feel my happiest. Playing baseball is definitely a place where I feel absolute joy and present. So giving back and volunteering is definitely and donating money every, anywhere and everywhere I can is definitely my sweet spot. That’s the one thing that really does bring me joy.
Sonya Palmer
Kelly has captured hundreds of stories that are raw and personal and often confidential, but I wanted to know which story had really stuck with her.
Kelly Deutsch
Oh, yeah. We worked on one of the plaintiffs from the the Vegas shooting. That was the country music festival.
Sonya Palmer
Mandalay Bay.
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah we worked on one of the plaintiffs who was paralyzed in the Mandalay Bay shooting in Las Vegas. The festival, this was a couple that it’s well publicized. They did a lot of interviews for the press, but one of the couple. We’re running from the gunfire and the gentleman shielded his girlfriend and was struck in the spine. And he was immediately fell to the ground and was paralyzed. And everybody around them told the girlfriend run, go, they’ll come back for him. And she said, no, I’m not leaving him. She got a table, a folding table and used it as a gurney, got him on that table and grabbed other people to get him to safety and this, oh my God, the story of him saving her and her saving him. And what that ordeal was getting him to the hospital. He had severe internal bleeding would have died if she had left him there. This couple has now gone on to have in vitro and they have their own child. Now they are doing everything that they can to make the best out of the worst situation.
Sonya Palmer
That’s incredible. Yeah. I can’t fathom something like that happening, but then just the collective trauma around experiencing something like that, and then a devastating life changing injury inside of then, these very difficult decisions and courageous decisions that they all made. Yeah, that’s very powerful. You do good work, Kelly. That’s good stuff.
Kelly Deutsch
Thank you so much. We really are committed to doing the absolute best we can for these families. We owe it to them to do the absolute best that we can to convey the loss that they have experienced. I recognize that the insurance adjuster and opposing counsel don’t give a damn. They don’t want to watch our videos. They don’t care. They think that every single plaintiff is exaggerating that they’re lying. That they’re malingerers and this simply isn’t true. It’s my job to show them that the plaintiff truly has been harmed. I really am committed to telling that story as efficiently, succinctly and true, authentically as possible.
Sonya Palmer
It does not need to be exaggerated or the truth alone is enough. If you can capture and document that you’ve done what needed to be done.
Kelly Deutsch
Correct? Correct. There’s no reason to Guild the Lily. Can not exaggerate the Lily’s beauty. It already is what it is
Sonya Palmer
If you were not doing this, what would you do?
Kelly Deutsch
I love baseball. I think baseball is God’s game. I would do anything and everything in my power to be involved in the game. Of course I’m not qualified to do anything in the game on a professional level. What I really don’t know. The whole reason why I’m sitting in, verdict videos, corporate offices right now is fate. Fate has literally brought me here. I have listened to the signs. I went with the signs and it all has brought me to where I am today. I’m not a religious person, but there has got to be something to this world there is just has to be.
Sonya Palmer
I agree. I think there’s a path and you’re either on it or you’re not. So I agree.
Kelly Deutsch
And the one thing I’ll say about that is either it feels right or it’s wrong.
Sonya Palmer
Yes.
Kelly Deutsch
So every correct, and every crossroad that I’ve ever come to. I had to check in with myself And say, is this right? Does this feel right? And if it doesn’t feel right, if I’m confused at all, it’s wrong.
Sonya Palmer
And of course, correct. Make, take action.
Kelly Deutsch
Absolutely. Take action. Don’t be afraid. And just, you have to try. I have to trust your intuition. I learned that really early on in my career that when I wanted to say something and I didn’t, it was always a mistake. It was always a mistake not to speak up.
Sonya Palmer
Yes. I also think as women that is often not desirable. we’re taught to not do that basically.
Kelly Deutsch
I’ll say a couple of things. I think women, my age and older do not have a healthy sense of healthy competition. Healthy competition is learned on the ball field, whether it’s soccer or softball or basketball. So if you didn’t, if you weren’t forced to participate in those sports, you know that’s where men have the advantage I think .They play sports or at least after my generation, men play sports their entire lives and they understand what it means to win, lose, and be okay with that. And still be friends and have a beer at the pub after whatever it is, women, my age and older don’t have that same sense of healthy competition because we didn’t play or women prior. I did play sports, but women mostly did not play sports. And so I really feel like we missed my generation and older, missed out on a lot of that. Learning how to deal and still maintain rapport,
Sonya Palmer
I think you’re onto something with
Kelly Deutsch
But also I’ve been in a conference room being the only woman and the, all of this like male fraternity thing happening and I’m singled out completely and it’s really disconcerting and very difficult to speak up when you’re in that type of environment.
Sonya Palmer
Be 100% invested in your success. And as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Invest in your business. While women may be apprehensive about spending, making regular and measured deposits will grow the bottom line of your practice, invest in yourself, fight the urge to do it all on your own, hire the right people for the jobs so that you can do what you do best. Remember, no matter what resources you invest, success will not come overnight. Give it time you can come out on. A huge, thank you to Kelly for sharing her story and unbelievable insights with us today. You have been listening to with me, Sonya Palmer. If you found this content insightful, inspiring, or it just made you smile, please share this episode with the trailblazer in your life for more about Kelly, check out our show notes, and while you’re there, please leave us a review or a five star rating. It really goes a long way for others to discover the show. And I will see you next week on LawHer we will shed light on how another of the brightest and boldest women in the legal industry climbed to the top of her field.
