Felice Duffy
The jury are people, they're going to know if you're not authentic and they know if you don't have integrity and it made law, it focused law for me wow, this isn't about knowing the rules. This is about how to communicate with people and how to be authentic and how to get what you were trying to get done.
Sonya Palmer
Becoming an incredible attorney is less about following one set path and more about following your passions, discovering what works for you and aligns with your values.
Felice Duffy
I didn't get my degree till I was 40. when I got there, I really was just like, why am I doing this? And we did trial practice and it made me go, oh my God, this is what it feels like to be an athlete cuz you gotta be prepared. You gotta be skilled. You gotta do that. And then the day of the trial, who knows what happens, the ref makes a call.
Sonya Palmer
According to a recent survey, only 19% of managing partners in us. Law firms are female. We would like to see that change. Hello and welcome to the show where we celebrate the trailblazing attorneys and entrepreneurs who are changing the game for women in the legal. Be inspired by their stories, learn from their mistakes and look forward to the future. They're helping build for the next generation of women in law. I'm Sonya Palmer, your host and VP of operations at rankings, the SEO agency of choice for personal injury lawyers. This is LawHer Felice Duffy is committed to excellence and driven by passion in the courtroom and on the soccer field. Founder of Duffy Law, Felice has served over ten years as a federal prosecutor, clerked for federal district judge, the Honorable Stefan Underhill and graduated Summa cum laude, Quinnipiac University School of Law. A dedicated title nine advocate and head coach of the Yale Division I Women’s Soccer Team, she was named to the first Women’s U.S. National Soccer team and selected for the first Division I All - American women's soccer team. Felice's first experience with title nine was when she filed an action against UCONN under the new title nine statute to compel the creation of a woman's soccer program. I sat with Felice to discuss following her passion unapologetically fighting for gender equity and shifting culture through education. But first I wanted to know about her upbringing in Connecticut and how it influenced her world view.
Felice Duffy
I have nine siblings, I think all of us are within a range of 12 years. So one after the other. And we grew up in Storrs, Connecticut. My dad was a professor. But I, it was civil rights, very liberal environment back in the sixties and seventies, when we grow up, came from California, went out, went to Storrs and what I believe is that, I say this tongue in cheek, but there were so many of us that our parents couldn't distinguish between us so we had complete equal division of labor. And we were treated equally that way. And I really believed because of our family upbringing and because of, I think the environment in which we grew up in Storrs, Connecticut, and the time. I really believe that everybody was treated equally, boys and girls, men and women. And I actually had a rude awakening in college and learned that wasn't necessarily the case. my mom is, was a very progressive liberal woman who believed in women's rights and believed in women's rights groups. My dad was a, he called me up, justice junkie. He was fairness junkie. coming from that background, I think sets the stage ultimately for me to come from that perspective and. being able to argue nine sibs. And I think I learned that skill about how to persuade and align and argue that also completely helped. I think that's one of the most important things about going to college and going to university is that awakening. Before you were a lawyer, you were a competitive athletes and even received a PhD in sports psychology. Can you tell us a little bit about your athletic history? Sure. Storrs itself was a hotbed of soccer and it was really the throwback to football back in the seventies when I'm dating myself back, when I was back in highschool. And it really still was the anti football regime and Joe Morrone at UCONN. Who's a legend in soccer had really recruited a lot of built a a an outstanding program there. So the guy who ended up coaching a UCONN was a student teacher and he was a player for the Yukon team, Lenny Sinteras. And he's a friend of mine and he was student teaching. And E.O. Smith was high school. I went to, which was literally on the campus of Yukon. So it was all in, know, 60s 70s open campus. You did whatever you wanted. Thank God. There was no cell. and you have the choice to go play soccer. And he said, I went over there and he said, no girls don't play. Which is interesting since he ended up being the women's soccer coach at Yukon, after I got that team. So I did play soccer, then he was like you're not too bad. So big compliment. And I was literally, I was a farmer. I raised sheep. I showed them I was competitive shepherd. I did all sorts and I want it to be a veteranarian . I was walking to UCONN to apply. To the veterinary school, which is what I was familiar was what I wanted to do. And I got lost and went over and McMahon hill went down and there was like the field of dreams soccer going on. Cause it wasn't the stadium. It is today was a little field with lights, like getting dusk and there was a group of people around it and you could just feel the excitement. And I went down, I wedged my way in and I saw the men's team playing. I think I'm going to say it was Brown. I think it was Brown, very competitive. And I remember thinking I want to do this.
Sonya Palmer
Felice marched directly to the athletic department of UCONN and asked to start women's soccer team at the time only three women's teams existed - in all divisions across the country. It would take two and a half years a complaint to the Health, Education, and Welfare Department, -predecessor to the Office for Civil Rights- and a threat of withdrawing federal funding before UCONN would have a woman's team. And while this battle could have pushed her into a legal career, all Felice wanted to do was play soccer.
Felice Duffy
So everyone kept telling me that I should be a lawyer. And I, quite frankly, I just wanted to play soccer and I did. I played till I was probably late twenties, 30 in my thirties. played internationally. I played at Yukon for five years. I was getting my degrees so that I could keep getting student loans because I didn't have any money so that I could keep playing soccer. I didn't tell kids that, but I also believed that education is important. as I was doing that, and I'd finished all my classes at Yukon playing everywhere and I went to Yale. the AD was looking for a women, a woman. And I went down to meet him. Cause there weren't many women coaching and there was 87 people that applied and he basically talked me into it, pressured me into taking the job, which I didn't want to do because I wanted to play. So I coached for 10 years saying I'm just going to coach until I finish my doctorate. so while I was there, I was the self appointed Title IX advocate for women. Cause I didn't have invested interest in coaching. So for all sorts of protected categories, for gender choice, for, whatever, I was the one that would always go forward and say, you can't do this because I wasn't worried about losing my job, but I wrote a bunch of memos that I actually have. And then AD at one point, cause there's a number of different athletic directors who is a lawyer wrote back and he came and said, you need to be a lawyer because I was caught in the NCAA manual. So I was very much an advocate back then. And then actually, when I was realizing, I didn't want to pursue coaching I realized the culture was never going to change. and if I stayed there, I was just going to have to fight and I didn't want to use my energy that way. And because years before I had just taken my LSATs on a whim, I got a message and said, you're also sets are going to expire at the end of July. And Quinnipiac University School of Law had just opened. And I just called up and I said, I know you'd get applications in January, but would you accept when they were looking for people they had just opened, they were trying to get a credit and they're like, sure, we'll take you. And then I went. And I took a leave of absence from Yale because they wanted me to stay. I was also working as an athletics senior athletic administrator. I was going to come back as that. And then I actually stopped going to law school because I was in my late thirties. it was the Socratic method there and they didn't treat you very well. It was too hard and I hadn't worked that hard academically prior to that. And I just, it was a tough time cause I was leaving sports.and I talked to the Dean, I think I actually played them. Tracy Chaplin's song that it just came out, come out that's, give me one reason to stay here. And I went in, I was like, ah, I'm outta here. And we're going to keep you in case you want to come back. And I said, don't cancel my application. It was extraordinarily stressful for me at that time. So I don't want to throw my books away, said I'm not doing it. And then the next year I went and spent some time at Yale doing senior athletic administration. And I realized that was really, I didn't want to be the lateral power hierarchy where paperwork and doing things like that. That was not my strength. Now what I want to do, we had less power than as a coach. So I went back to law school.
Sonya Palmer
I love how it dials in and you get closer and closer to where you were supposed to be, and there's a very clear direction and path for that. And it sounds like you were already doing the work, but by becoming a lawyer, it gave you the ability to just do it better, and to actually achieve a result.
Felice Duffy
Yes, except I didn't want to be a lawyer. Even when I went to one school I really didn't. And I was like, it's interesting. I didn't know what I wanted to do. It was really like, oh my God, I was just playing soccer this whole time. Didn't get my degree till I was 40. So to have that background, I have owned a house. I've done all those things and worked in other areas. And I think being an athlete makes a difference in difference actually. When I got there, I really was just like, why am I doing this? Until the last year I met someone who's now like a mentor and a friend or any title is one of the best lawyers in Connecticut. And we did trial practice and it made me go, oh my God, this is what it feels like to be an athlete cuz you gotta be prepared. You gotta be skilled. You gotta do that. And then the day of the trial, who knows what happens, the ref makes a call. It's raining out and what happened to be in the trial once my heel broke off my foot. So I had to walk around with pretending I had a heel on it. And you have a team and a referee and it was
Sonya Palmer
And when you can lose.
Felice Duffy
Well, it was, it mimic that without, unless you wear heels without hurting your knees and but he also. Was really about being on an authentic person and working with integrity, not only because that's who he is, but that's how you communicate with a jury. Like here's about the judge, the jury are people, they're going to know if you're not authentic and they know if you don't have integrity and it made law, it focused law for me wow, this isn't about knowing the rules. This is about how to communicate with people and how to be authentic and how to get what you were trying to get done. That's what I like. That's made sense to me for law.
Sonya Palmer
Your career has included positions at major firms, a position in the us attorney's office. And now your own firms specializing in title nine actions. You've had a breadth of legal experience when you opened your firm, how did you decide You wanted to specialize on Title IX?
Felice Duffy
I kept saying. I'm going to go work at all these big firms in New York and everywhere. Cause I want to see how the other side works. So that I'll be the best little plaintiff's lawyer so I can have justice and it just kept taking on and taking on. I kept getting these great opportunities and every place I worked was a wonderful learning experience. I met great people. But it was the ultimate white shoe firm that reflected the cultural way the world is, which is real basically by the white male model, which doesn't mean it's all white males, it's white male and heterosexual Protestant, but of that, but it was really not a place where women, we're going to naturally be included, but that's how it was. It was so fascinating. But at every place I tried to get a diversity of experiences. and we're clerking for judge Underhill, it was against my natural, liberal, progressive upbringing with law enforcement and the government. But I had clerked for a job and seen them working and the people in Connecticut were great. And, I really had developed a real understanding of the nobility of law enforcement and I feel like it just, everything expanded my views so that I can really appreciate, which is critical to my job now, Duffy Law everybody's perspactive I say this now, like I think I'm an anti-authoritarian. That's what I do. So what am I doing? The order for the U S government? What am I doing, working for large law firms. And, when someone's to, and even Yale I didn't like people to tell me what to do and in order to be successful in all those places, you have to listen to them.
Sonya Palmer
Little obedient.
Felice Duffy
Yeah, I look back with sympathy on the people that were my supervisors in all these places. And they may laugh too because, I always want it to be part of a team that was the other thing. Being part of the US Attorneys team being a part of a team of these law firms was fun. And that was like athletics. and I knew that I wasn't going to make a career of the us attorney's office for a lot of reasons, mostly the anti-authoritarian like this was a great experience. Then I left. I actually happened to be with my age and my years of experience, there became a time when I was literally eligible to retire. And I didn't know that. And someone told me and I was like, wow.
Sonya Palmer
Title IX is often mistaken, simply as a gender equity in school sports law.. In 2011, former president Barack Obama issued guidance reminding schools that the scope of the law includes sexual assault as a civil rights matter and clarified protections for LGBT students. Shortly after Felice worked for US Attorney for Connecticut Deirdre Daly to train college stakeholders, students and police officers about Title IX.
Felice Duffy
And as that evolved over the next three years I really realized that this was a place where I could make a difference and it would, it could be a nice place to go and be able to go out and make a difference in real people's lives, which I wanted to do. In fact, I started with federal being a federal criminal lawyer. We've now after the first year and a half, two years, because of how we do it, what we like to do and the volume of cases. And we represent students, faculty, staff across the country now, primarily in colleges and universities on sexual harassment sexual misconduct, both sides again, which is unusual, most lawyers, big aside. And I quite frankly thought that I would be representing women complainants. That was what I thought, because that was my orientation. And when I got involved in it, I realized that first of all, the majority of people, aren't the, Hi, highly violent sexual predators. So there's a small percentage of people that, need to be probably expelled, perhaps put in jail, but definitely addressed that way. But the majority of these things were happening in a educational environment. It was mostly acquaintance issues. So people knew each other. And this was a perfect opportunity for people to participate in educational things, ways to understand how to have this not happen in the future. And as a federal prosecutor, I was involved in so many investigations that I really realized that it was the processes that's the problem, it's not a good process for either complainants or respondents, male or female. And I thought it made sense to represent, again, both people and. This is what I would say in athletics. This is what I say a lot of our clients. And I think it's true as we'll help you through this, as long as you deal with yourself and others with dignity and respect, and you're going to look back on this in 10 years and you're going to feel good about how you handle it. And you're going to have a better outcome because you'll learn from this.
Sonya Palmer
I admire that sort of wanting to work with both significantly. just partnering with those people and helping them navigate their way through this very complicated and like terrible experience for everyone involved. so you're, well-versed on discrimination and universities. Do you observe gender discrimination in the legal field?
Felice Duffy
There's gender discrimination. There's all sorts of discrimination because we've come from a cultural history where there's been a certain group of people in charge and all our systems and all our rules and all our laws,It's still controlled by that power lead, it's gotten better. It's getting better. There's no question. Black lives matter helps. There's no question that All Me Too movement, all those things, but those are the things that are stretching the seams of what controls our world. I think it's way better. But absolutely. I think, for example, my experience was in the federal criminal field. There weren't very many. We just weren't,
Sonya Palmer
What do you think will be different for the future generations of women in law?
Felice Duffy
I think this is a very interesting time in. I think politically, personally, I think the pandemic changed a lot of people's perspective about what they want to do with their life. I think this is really a universal a time for the universe and the world to be really addressing all those issues. So it's really hard for me to think about what the future is going to look like. I do think there is with the Me Too movement with the, like I said, black lives, all the movements, those are taking marginalized people. And helping them mainstream better. If nothing else it's creating community group of support, which is so critical and success in this world. So one thing I didn't really have, but I learned, especially with when Dierdre Daly was our U S attorney just made a difference, not only as a role model and visually knowing that, but there are people that are actually now with those movements actively not only helping each other, but trying to educate other people about that. one of the other smaller things I do is gender equity in athletics and that's important to me because as a woman, I did that and I've lived that. So mostly when I represent a few coaches, but students, particularly female students, they can't afford a lawyer However, every once in a while I'll do it. Every year I did a couple of cases, one, for student plaintiffs to bring those cases and I would do it on a contingency basis. And what is happening now? We just represented 12 people in the Yukon case. I filed a complaint in that seventies, we now did this for these 12 rowing program rowers on this huge program, it was gut based on Title 9. It was a very difficult case. We had a great legal team, but the thing that inspired me most, which is different than it used to be as it was 12 of them that were willing to come forward. And when you have that support in the committee, And the coaching staff and the people at Yukon we're helping them. The alums helped to have that support. And that's very different. They're now going to be paying, I think the women's soccer program, equal pay and a lot of that's, again, my roots, I did that back in the seventies and it's so cool. I think them as a group filing a case together, It's not just one person. Cause it's, that's scary. That's hard. But what we're seeing now is groups of women doing this now, And we also educated them with our team of women that I think that is going to make a huge difference in the future in law for women.
Sonya Palmer
I got to tell you, I've been doing these interviews now for a few weeks speaking with Women lawyers. And that has come up every single time, whether it was in law school or starting a firm, or just trying to handle family. The lack of a support system was detrimental. And then fostering a support system is what made them able to do it. And what I'm seeing also is there's all of these pockets where this stuff seems to be developing. And I think that this is one of those things where the pandemic helped. Where it forced everyone online to find like-minded people and to just get their support group. So I love that. And I saw the headlines. I'm a US WNC fan. So I wanted to ask you, if you had seen about the equal pay coming in.
Felice Duffy
I read every article comes out. Their equity every morning. I think
Sonya Palmer
Probably that's I
Felice Duffy
To for my business.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah. I didn't look to see exactly what the terms were, but that's obviously been a long time counting.
Felice Duffy
Yeah. And it was amazing that as a group, they did that and they took it on. It was so critically, it was
Sonya Palmer
Oh yeah.
Felice Duffy
With the Me Too movement. I really I'm so psyched that.
Sonya Palmer
To keep making forward progress we have to know our rights. I asked Felice what information every college student should have about Title IX.
Felice Duffy
They should understand that the title IX process is incredibly difficult and complicated. And as a complainant, you may not be aware of that before you get involved in it as a respondent, you may think, Hey, I can just walk in and tell the truth and may not understand the consequences of that. And so I would say there are rights that you have along the way, but most students, were just living their lives. And if they don't understand the potential consequences, at one point we were calling it for respondent's academic capital punishment. That was the term that was coined. And if you don't understand that, You really need somebody, I think. to have somebody advise you if you get wrapped up in this. That's one thing, The second thing is that I think that if students could understand this is an educational process, But that has to be supported by the schools because when you get in like a court, like system and people start, but refer respondents, if you don't come across as defensive, because if someone accuses you of something you didn't do, let's just take that case. And I'm not saying that's, I believe everybody on both sides, but it feels terrible. But you have to really understand this is about learning. This is about learning who you are. This is about your social fabric. This is about respecting people. So I think they have to really understand that this is not just about, I did or didn't do this. And I think for complainants, if they, again, They need to understand it's the whole thing about male or female complainants? Cause it happens to both, but I'm just going to talk, say her, cause it's just easier at the moment, but for women, they have rights and they can go through this process, but those rights they need to understand or any complainant that this should be about healing for them, this isn't about making sure the school does the right thing and schools should be supporting that. And hopefully the new administration will get that in place. But, and I'll just give you an example. If somebody may not want to bring a formal complaint that they have to do now, because the roles are different against somebody who was their best friend, because it may rip apart their social fabric. This is what I advise complainants about. And it's complicated. You don't have to take care of other people. So how that's a mantra for especially women, especially younger people to learn. And this is what a lot I do with advising is this is not about you taking care of your parents about other women that this might've happened too. This is about making sure you go through this process in a way that you control. That you take care of yourself first. And that's major lesson that I talk to people about and I work with them and often have to get the parents out of the picture because parents are angry when this happens to their kids and that, maybe what do you need from this? Do you need to speak, do you need to be heard? Do you need to just have you, could you have a restorative justice informal process with this kid? To just say, confidentially, this is what you did to me. And the person says, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And you resolve that. And that is that's available in most schools, but it's not forefront. you don't just have to step into this process and make it adversarial and go through the whole thing. You need to understand that this is gonna for both people, it's going affect the rest of your life. And you really need to understand, look at what you're doing. And understand, what you're going through right now and how it can be a learning experience. And I say this because this isn't how it works right now, but this is how you create culture change. This is what everyone's trying to do. And they try to do that with everyone, the affirmative action laws, and then it doesn't result in culture change because it's just, you stick to the laws and you follow it. But this type of educational thing, if kids can approach it that way, students can approach it that way with advisors. I think schools would want to do it. It really should be driven from the schools, but they don't, they're not equipped to do it. And then if those kids realize that and they have the rights that could enable them to go through that and get that help, that will actually keep both kids in school. Maybe not. I've had people say to the other side, you don't want to have this on the record because and I'm not talking one of the three percent. You know, and, but even so that's what the complainant wants. But if you promise, if you withdraw from school and don't go here while I'm here and you get sex, education training, and do all these things, I'll make sure that it's not on your record because I know you're going to be a changed human. I know that you were drunk when you did it. I get that. Get alcohol counseling. Then you can go to a school somewhere else. And that saves a kid's life. And if that kid realizes, you know what, you're right. I shouldn't have done that. It was awful. I'm going to do that. That's great. It doesn't always happen. We work toward that. And that's one thing I think, and it's not really about their rights because the rights are spelled out in the handbook. They know what they're. It's just that those rights in writing don't reflect the real process.
Sonya Palmer
You're also dealing with, like you said, kids where they're at this pivotal point in their life where they're transitioning. Living with their parents and then this like soft introduction to adulthood. It's a very Yeah. Pivotal point in their life to have something like this happen to them for both parties.
Felice Duffy
And it's extra soft right now. I think in our culture,
Sonya Palmer
Do you want to expound on that?
Felice Duffy
I'm not going to be pulling research out or anything, but my belief files say then is that, there's a lot of people saying that college is the new high school, because I think there's some clearly social media has an effect on everybody. I don't think there's any question about that. Not only the way it affects people's minds and polarizes people opinions, and, when you grow up communicating on text and FaceTime and not in person, when you grow up reading social media and reading all that stuff and playing games, instead of reading books and congregating in person that has an impact, I think on the emotional maturity of a person. And I think too, not only perhaps is there more, I'm going to say learning disabilities, which of course they're not disabilities. They're just people that think different than the mainstream. So I get that, which is also what we talk about when we're in these schools look, this isn't stocking, this is somebody who's on the spectrum. They should be educated about what that is. This person needs to be able to communicate here. but I think because the population is bigger at schools because perhaps there's a higher ratio of those types of things, because maybe the medical world is, enabled a lot of people to function better. And because obviously people are uncovering that more diagnosis diagnosing that more, but put that a pandemic on top of that, the Office of Civil Rights discretely released something a few months ago with a lot of research, say, I'm totally paraphrasing here. Everybody in educational systems is basically, should be diagnosed with anxiety. It is an anxiety crisis, everybody teachers, administrators. so you take that and you put that into what the colleges everybody's concerned about, making sure that people feel I'm going to use the safe word, because it's an interesting word because people should be safe. but I think colleges are really concerned about making sure that people they're respecting all this, which isn't easy to do. So with all that put together, students are there. It's soft.
Sonya Palmer
Yeah.
Felice Duffy
It's not a one end cause they're kicking kids out for doing certain stuff, but that's easier, but that's because maybe they're making, protecting too many rights. So I think that transition into college is not, you're not an adult. I recognize a difference. it's an interesting place and I am, I'll be interested to see how college evolve and restructure through this to make sure, to make sure they survive.
Sonya Palmer
What is your hope for the industry? What are you looking forward to seeing?
Felice Duffy
Think that particularly in mine, lawyers need to be counselors, not legal advocates. And I think that would be a wise thing to do anyway, my opinion is if you walk into an educational institution and you're advising somebody in these processes and you're like, cause it's hearsay and I'm going to damn schools, don't like that doesn't work. Not good for you. But I think the legal industry is changing and I think it's opening up to more counselor type active. What I really hope for what we do specifically, aside from, equality and world peace is that, and I hope that Biden administration does this with what they're working on right now. I think they'll probably get closer to it, but they really. With the way we treat it. There's a real opportunity to use this process at schools to create real cultural change. Because if you can use this law to create culture, change that until you change attitudes, you cannot change, how people are treated. So this is a real opportunity and we do it. I feel like every one of our clients pretty much all of them we've done. We've done that with, they've seen the world a little differently. They've had a little more compassion for the other side. They've had more compassion for themselves. They understand their role in it. Whether it's not saying that it was to blame, but what that means, they understand. You know how to navigate things. It's really, I feel like I'm a, I feel like I'm a coach again, it feels like athletics. And I say this is what I would say to my players. So I really, I do believe that. But laugh at me because I am a really an optimist after everything I've been through and done, I am really like, I do believe there is a way forward for our particular Title IX issues and the way lawyers handle it to create real culture change
Sonya Palmer
Excellent. full circle back to being a coach. If you weren't a lawyer, what would you do instead?
Felice Duffy
Well, I think you're asking me the question. I believe I've been asking myself for the last three hundred years. It's hard to say. I I'm very much into the, I would love to be a mediator in compassionate conversation between fighting groups, if I wasn't a lawyer earlier, I think that another way to create change, although I'm not so sure now it would be politics. I would love to be. A Senator or a Congress person to be able to work with people and do these things. I always wanted to be a cowboy. And I say that because I've gone to dude ranches, I've gone up in the mountains that I've done all that. I love to ride horses. I love nature. I'd love to just go be like our hermit out in, Montana.
Sonya Palmer
By focusing on her passion. Felice has been at the forefront of gender equality for decades as an athlete, coach, and attorney. So much of what makes a good lawyer great is infusing practice with passion. Use your energy wisely. Look at the situation holistically and identify your long-term goals. Just as Felice made the transition from coach to lawyer, sometimes we have to step back and see where we can implement the most change. A huge thank you to Felice for sharing her story and unbelievable insights with us today, you have been listening to LawHer with me, Sonya Palmer.. If you found this content insightful, inspiring, or just made you smile, please share this episode with a trailblazer in your life for more about Felice Duffy , check out our show notes, and while you're there, please leave us a review or a five-star rating. It really goes a long way for others to discover the show. And I'll see you next week on LawHer where we shed light on how another of the brightest and boldest women in the league. Climbed to the top of her field.
