CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
We're not just a business woman, we're not just a wife, we're not just a mother. We're a whole person.
SONYA PALMER:
Balancing vulnerability with authority and drive can be a challenge. When the whole woman is nurtured, she is able to elevate herself, the people around her, and the entire industry.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
You can't be okay with doing anything else until you're okay with yourself. So let's treat it holistically, let's treat it as one person, and work-life integration, not work-life balance, is, I think, really key to that.
SONYA PALMER:
In 2021, women made up over half of all summer associates for the fourth year in a row. And equity partners in multi-tier law firms continue to be disproportionately white men. Only 22% of equity partners are women. We would like to see that change. Hello and welcome to LawHer, the show where we celebrate the trailblazing attorneys and entrepreneurs who are changing the game for women in the legal field. Be inspired by their stories, learn from their mistakes, build community, and look forward to the future they're helping build for the next generation of women in law. I am Sonya Palmer, your host, and VP of operations at Rankings, the SEO agency of choice for personal injury lawyers. This is LawHer. We know that women play a major role in the business of law firms, but there are few spaces dedicated to the support and advancement of women in the industry where women can feel welcome to share all of who they are, highs and lows. Carson Bayer Gillespie and her co-founder, Melissa Lamore, recently launched The League, an organization that supports women holistically so that each woman can feel like they have a seat at the table. I spoke with Carson today in her current role at Legal Association Management, and she has thrown balance out the window for a different strategy, full integration. When the people in your life who lift you up and encourage you are in the professional sphere, why not invite them into your personal life? It is this crossover concept that helps spark the idea for The League. We dig into the role that vulnerability plays, why it's okay to not always be okay, and how women can rise together. Rarely do people know what they want to be when they grow up, but if you asked eight-year-old Carson what she wanted to be, it would be in events. She grew up helping her mother plan events throughout middle and high school. Today her position is Events and Special Projects Manager at Legal Associations Management, where she fell in love with the legal space. Let's dive in.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
How I got here is completely by accident. Completely random. I had no background in the legal industry. I live in Dothan, Alabama, which is a small city of about 60,000 people. Previously I was living in Georgia, my boyfriend at the time, and my husband now, graduated from pharmacy school and got offered a job in Dothan, Alabama. And moved down here and I was like, "What am I going to do in Dothan, Alabama?" Because I came from a hospitality background where the events that I was doing were like 20,000 plus people events. They were very, very large scale. And so I was like, that's like half the population of the town here. So I was very nervous to move down. Ended up doing that about a year after he had been down here and was honestly having a really hard time finding a professional job in this small of a city. So I saw a LinkedIn post for Legal Associations Management, had no desire to apply or interview, but I did anyway. And then as we were talking, Chase, our CEO, was like, "Do you want to do ..." Because I went in for a marketing position that they had open and he was like, "Do you want to do events or marketing?" And I was like, "Well, you don't have an event position open, so I feel like I need to say marketing." And he's like, "We'll create one for you." And that's how it came about.
SONYA PALMER:
Wow. You did, you kind of fell into that. Love it.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Literally fell into that.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah. Can you explain what LAM is and who they serve?
CARSON BAYER:
So Legal Associations Management, LAM, operates a variety of associations in the legal space. Our most well-known one that we own and operate is the National Trial Lawyers. I think most people in the space are familiar with the National Trial Lawyers. So that's our main focus and we have specialty associations off of that. We also manage some of the marketing for AHA. We manage some special projects like the management of the trial school as another organization that we do MTVA, our Master Work Vendor Association, we help as well, so we have our hands in a bunch of different stuff. We do a lot of different things as well as produce The Trial Lawyer magazine, which is a publication about 30,000 lawyers get.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes, yes. Very, very well known in the legal industry. And you've worked in the hospitality and event industry for the past eight years. What is it about the legal industry? Melissa and I talked a lot about the legal industry, but for you, what is it that sort of lights you up about the legal industry?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
I think what lights me up about the legal industry is that there are so many opportunities. There are so many things other than just being a lawyer that has to do with the legal space. I know that 90% of what we do is serve lawyers or serve for something with a trial, but there's just this whole other world that I wasn't familiar with and it just seems like the opportunities are endless. You're always meeting new interesting people. It's such a unique space. I think it's a really energizing space as well. So that's what has really drawn me into it.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes, I agree with that. I've been in the legal industry now for six and a half years, not a lawyer, and don't work for a firm.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
And it feels weird to say that, right?
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah. Yeah. Because you feel so ingrained, and it's a part of it. So I completely agree.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
That's one of the reasons I wanted to form The League because there are all these other people, there are all these other moving pieces, there are all these other women that live and breathe this industry and love this industry, but don't fall into that category of an attorney or even as a vendor. And I just wanted to create a home for every woman in the space. If you're a part of the legal industry, why wouldn't you want to be part of the group?
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, let's transition to The League. And so it's an organization that supports the whole woman. Can you expand on how The League supports the growth and evolution of women in the legal industry?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Well, let me first go back to my thought process when I was thinking about The League. It's like I was talking about where I didn't fall into a category, but I wanted to create a place for myself to feel like I had a family, I felt like a home other than just my team here in our office. When I met Melissa and we automatically bonded, I mean, it was just instantaneous. I knew we wanted to work together in some capacity. And so when I had this idea of, "Hey, I want a home, I love our friendship. I love how we can talk about work, but we can also talk about our personal lives." She's the person that I call to celebrate when something's gone great at work or she's the person that I call when something really bad has happened at home. That's awesome because I have such a theory of, you don't need work-life balance, you need work-life integration. So why would you separate those two and why can't you blend business and friendship? And I think that's how the most meaningful relationships come about when you do those things. So that's why I think it's revolutionary for the legal industry because we're bringing it all together. You don't have to separate those two, because as a working woman, those blend together so naturally anyway that it would be nice to just have a support system, have a family that has your back, have a girl's group that understands what's going through on a daily basis. And regardless of your title or your position. It's not a place for egos. It's a place for just everybody to be one and say like, "Hey, I know what you're going through. This is what I did." That's really what it's about, what I think is very different.
SONYA PALMER:
I want to talk about you and Melissa for a minute. She said that you taught her that it is okay to not be okay all the time. What does that mean?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Well, that was hard to do for her. I'm sure you learned, she is, Melissa is such a strong individual. She has a very powerful presence about her. We always say her unique ability is the ability to galvanize people. People just gravitate toward her and she really feeds off of that energy. When she was diagnosed with cancer, my father a few years ago had cancer, and I moved out to California to get him to get treated at UCLA. We moved in with my uncle and my aunt and my cousin. We had been out there for a week and then my 22-year-old cousin was diagnosed with leukemia. So we had two cancer patients in the same house at the same time. I mean, I don't know what the odds are of that. I had quit my job to go take care of my father and it was fortunate enough that I could be there to take care of my cousin as well. So I was the primary caregiver for two cancer patients, which is insane, especially out of state, in another ... In California, LA. From lower Alabama to Los Angeles. It's a big shift. And so when she was diagnosed with her cancer, I was like, "I mean, I know what's coming. It's tough, it's hard and you're going to have a really hard time slowing down and being okay to do that." It was a really, really tough lesson, but she learned it eventually.
SONYA PALMER:
You've mentioned work-life integration. I would like you to expound on what you mean there. And then also how do you decompress, take time for yourself? How does that sort of fit in integration-wise? How does self-care fit into the integration?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Work-life integration, a perfect example of it is, we built a gym in our office. So I go work out during lunch. Super easy and it's accepted like, "Oh, you're going to the gym. Cool, that's fine." That's work-life integration. I don't have to balance that out, I just fit it in. I don't have children, other people in our office do. Say school's out one day or somebody's sick or something. You can bring your kid into the office. They can hang out by your desk, cool. Nobody's going to say anything. You have a dentist appointment, absolutely. Go do that. It's not about balancing those two things, it's just working them intertwined. So those are, I mean, very, very simple scenarios, but that is work-life integration. Our CEO and I live in the same neighborhood. There are several of our coworkers, and we all live in the same neighborhood. Our families are all friends, we all know each other's spouses. It's not just at the office it's like, "Oh, do you want to go meet in the neighborhood?" Having those simple mechanisms to just integrate your life into work, I don't know if it's more of a millennial concept rather than what's been traditionally done in the past. But I definitely think that that is where the future is. I think that's how you can maintain and retain your employees is because they're not always asking for more time off. It's just like, I'm trying to work my life into this.
SONYA PALMER:
A hundred percent. I love working.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
I do too.
SONYA PALMER:
I love to work. Yeah. Yeah, if I want to leave early on a Friday and take my dad to the movies, I'm going to do that. But then if I get an idea on a Saturday morning, I'm come down and I'm going to type it out. I'm going to put it into action. I'm not going to be like, "Oh, it's not working time." Do you know? I like that balance.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yeah, it's just an integration. It's just something that I have really developed a love for since working for Legal Associations Management, and I really, really value it. And I couldn't imagine doing life any other way.
SONYA PALMER:
Oh yeah, I completely agree.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
And I think that's how a lot of people in our industry operate, is more of a work-life integration. At conferences all the time, I see people bring their families. That's awesome. Or they're on vacation, yet they're going to take a Zoom call real quick. It's just part of it. Go on a golf outing but are doing a business deal.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, I think integration is a way better word than balance. Even when work and life become integrated, women face immense pressure to be on and show up for everyone. But we are human, which means that sometimes we are not okay. Carson gives us a real-life example of how it's okay to not be okay and to release the guilt that may surround the feeling of letting others down when we can't show up as we had hoped.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Let's be vulnerable for a second. I'm in a bad head space right now. I don't feel 100% myself. I was so excited about this podcast. I was like, "I have all my answers, and this is what we're going to talk about." And then something happened today, and I don't have to go into extreme detail. One of my superiors came into my office this morning and said, "I want to share that I heard that your conduct at Mass Torts Made Perfect wasn't great." I know I didn't do anything wrong. Why is it just assumed that if there's a woman in Vegas and say, she's dressed up, she has to be doing something wrong? You know what I mean? The relationships that you have in your life, especially women in this industry that I can call and say, "Hey, this just happened and this sucks," and then be able to relate to me or be able to give advice, is so crucial and so needed in this industry, that we want to talk about it being so male-dominated when it's not. It's not. 90% of the offices across America have the majority of women in them. They might not be all attorneys, but they're the ones doing the work behind the scenes and keeping the pieces moving.
SONYA PALMER:
Law school students too.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yeah, exactly. And it would be nice, especially for someone from a small town or doesn't already have this built-in network in this industry, to have that already formed. Let's formalize our ... We always talk about it being a boys club, and the boys club gets to go and talk about all this other stuff. Why can't we have our girls club? I say all of that because The League, especially, is a place for women to feel that they're safe to be vulnerable and they're also safe to be ambitious. Because those two things are not always inherently welcomed in our industry or the world, even.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, I appreciate you being vulnerable. I think, you know, I talked with Melissa, I'm talking with you today, about how important it is to have an organization like The League and how women need these things. And then here it is on display. Here it is ... Yes.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Well, I was just talking to Melissa and I was like, "How am I supposed to go on this podcast right now and be who I want to be when I'm feeling like this?" And she was like, "Maybe that's the reason the podcast is happening today. That it is okay to show that you're vulnerable and you don't feel okay, but it's so necessary to have relationships that can support you and they have your back. So you're like, 'All right, I'll give you a pep talk, or I'll give you my advice, or I have your back.'" You know what I mean? It just feels ...
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
It feels good to have that. I don't know; are you familiar with Sharon Booth?
SONYA PALMER:
Yes.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Okay, so that's my mentor, and she's an amazing human being. She's essentially who I want to be in 20 years. She's been in this industry forever. Everyone knows her; everyone respects her. She wears multiple hats all the time. I can pick up the phone and call that person and say, "I'm dealing with this; what do you suggest?" And then not only give suggestions but also say, "I have your back," which puts you at such ease. I can do this podcast because I'm like, "It's okay. I'm not the only one going through this." And that's what I wanted to give to other people in the industry. I don't know if you feel that way.
SONYA PALMER:
Oh, absolutely. And I think it was Melissa and I that talked about this, where sometimes the remedy to these very difficult things is to just take action. To do it anyways. Even if you don't necessarily feel like it or even if you do feel like it, you're not on it or at your best. I'm using quotation marks for the listeners. To do the next thing, take action. And sometimes then that will at least put you in a direction. So no, I think that makes complete sense.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
When I go back, like law students, this is a great example, they're entering this industry and it's a different world, it's a different space. You don't really know what you're getting into. Wouldn't it be nice just to come in and be like, "Oh, this is a safe group to hang out with and navigate and figure out where I fit into this, and they can help me, guide me on this journey of learning about this space?" When you have that comradery and that safe place to not only be vulnerable but ambitious, both of those things, which I think a lot of women are, but it's only either seen as one or the other, I think a lot of times. That would be really comforting as a young person, and I'm not super old, I'm 33, but it is comforting to know that I have a whole support system of women that when I'm dealing with something, or when I'm frustrated, or when I just need a connection or need a business meeting, hey, I have a whole network of people that have got your back.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes. I think it goes back to what you said about work and life, that it's not a work-life balance; it's a work-life integration.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yes.
SONYA PALMER:
And I think that about the traits of women in the legal industry, there are very hardworking, ambitious, intelligent women and it's not necessarily balancing that, or that shows up instead of vulnerability.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
You have to balance it all out, and it just ...
SONYA PALMER:
There's room for both.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
There's room for both; there's room for all that. We're a whole woman. We're not just a business woman, we're not just a wife. We're not just a mother. We're a whole person. And when you can nurture the person as a whole person, then I think you elevate not only yourself but the people around you, the industry that you work in, the work ethic that you have, and the projects that you put out. Because we always, can't be okay with doing anything else until we're okay with ourselves. So let's treat it holistically. Let's treat it as one person. And work-life integration, not work-life balance, is, I think, really key to that.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes. How do you show up and be vulnerable in your professional life but then also maintain authority and drive?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
It's hard.
SONYA PALMER:
It's very hard.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
And that's when you need authentic relationships, especially as a woman in this particular space, because it's really easy to get lost and it's easy to, I mean, just lose it in this space. There's just so much going on. And I love the friendships that I have in this space that I can call crying, and then I also can call, and they're like, "You're a badass, and you're a boss, and I'm so excited for you."
SONYA PALMER:
Carson wants to create room for women to be whole humans supported through the ups and the downs. At its center, The League is about unity.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
The League is for any woman in the legal space, regardless of title, regardless of age, regardless of anything. It is for everybody. That's why I designed it. That was the whole genesis of it, which is that we're uniting everyone. Because when women unite and support each other, we're forced to be reckoned with. And we can elevate the entire industry by elevating women and giving women the ability to feel empowered and supported by one another. It's for everyone. It's not a new concept. People always have... That's why sororities work in college. Because people want to feel part of something, that's why athletic teams are a thing. Because people want to feel like they're in a group. And if you're a woman in this legal space, this is a place for you. And it's not a place of ego, which is why I love that it's not a niche type of organization. You got to meet one criteria; you're a woman in the legal space.
SONYA PALMER:
How did you build the initial network?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
It was a collaborative effort, which again goes back to the whole idea of The League. I would not be doing this without Melissa. I always say she's loudly ambitious, and I'm softly ambitious. You're like, "That's probably true."
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah. I see it. I see it.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Yeah. She is loudly ambitious. I am softly ambitious. So I'll come up ... I was like, "Hey, I have this idea." I didn't think it was even going to go anywhere. And then she was like, "Let's do a focus group in Seattle." And I was like, "Okay, let's do a focus group and see what people want." We know we want to create ... We know we want to work together. We know it wants it to be about women, but what is that? So we had 25 women show up to this focus group, and we sat around a table and stood up and said, "We're creating a women's organization; what do you need? And we'll build it around that." And then everybody just started chiming in, and we heard some common themes. And then from that group, we were very strategic about the people we picked to be on the board informing this. Because although I want it to be for everybody, I cannot do all the roles, and we need certain roles filled, we needed certain seats filled. A few of the women on our board didn't know before this. And it was me reaching out saying, I ... For example, Rachel with Milestone, who sits in the marketing seat on the board, I did not know her before this. I still actually have never met her in person. And I was just like, "You're somebody I hear is so widely respected and well spoken about and has everything together and organized. And something is telling me that you need to be part of this. And I know that sounds crazy because we don't know each other, but would you want to be part of this?" And that's kind of how we approached it with everybody since it was such a new concept. Which again goes to relationships and building your network, and collaborating.
SONYA PALMER:
Was there fear as you were organizing it?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Absolutely. I'm terrified all the time. Melissa is the strong face of the group, and I love that about her. I think that's why we complement each other very well. Yeah, it's so hard to ... I remember at the focus group, I came back, and I typed up notes, and I sent them to Rachel, and I was like, "Hey, I know you don't know me. Here are some thoughts about this. Would this be something that you're interested in?" And she edited some of my first notes. That was incredibly vulnerable, and I was incredibly terrified. And every time I talk about The League or the genesis of it, I'm scared that people will think, "Oh, that's stupid," or "Oh, nobody wants that." Then it just keeps growing, and it keeps getting more traction, and I sit there in disbelief. I'm the first person to say I am not perfect and do not have the answers to everything. And so, this is why we needed a whole team of women to do it. And they're so incredibly talented and skilled. I'm just blown away every day.
SONYA PALMER:
In your bio, you say your favorite quote is, "Perfection is the enemy of progress."
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Yes.
SONYA PALMER:
How do you know then, for something like The League or any project, how do you strike that balance between, this is good, it's not perfect?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
You surround yourself with people who think differently than you.
SONYA PALMER:
That's good. That's smart.
CARSON BAYER:
Because if it were up to me, I'd say, let's do it today, and it's fine. And then you have people like Dina Joseph or Jenny Levine; they're like, "No, we need to make sure the membership is plugged in, and that's all coordinated, and that has to be, and then, to make it ..." And I'm like, "Well it doesn't always have to be perfect." And they're like, "Yeah, but what it does have to be in a somewhat normal state." So I cherish and value people who think completely differently than me. And I think that's what makes a team rocket.
SONYA PALMER:
That's great advice. It's hard advice, I think, because you always, I think, gravitate toward like-minded.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
I got that from the CEO of Legal Associations Management, Chase Gibbons. He is phenomenal about surrounding himself with people that think differently than him. He has purposely done it. It's how our entire organization is designed. Everybody on our team thinks differently, but everyone's opinion is heard. And I think that's what makes for a dynamic and very successful group. Because you keep each other in balanced, in check, and you can push back on things, or then be like, "Okay, I see it from your point of view." I think that's really, really key.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, I completely agree. Not only is it key to success and growth, but I think the lack of it now will just equal failure if you can't surround yourself with people. So if everything goes according to plan, where would you see The League in two years?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
I would see us with 2000 members. I would see us in every single state across the nation. As soon as a law student graduates college and she's a female, she signs up to be a member. I see it growing and growing. I think it can shift the space in the sense that we're just all together. We're all one. We're your friends; you can sit with us. That's one of our taglines. You can sit with us. There are no mean girls. You can sit with us. If you need a home or want to know what's going on, come, and we'll help you out.
SONYA PALMER:
The League has in-person and online events. The website launched in November, and those who sign up before 2023 can become a founding member for a donation.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
2023 is when we're going to kick things off and get this organization started with more structure. But we'll be offering webinars, in-person events, and in-person meetups. One of the goals for this is to piggyback off of conferences and events already happening in the space. So people were already going to be in those locations. But something different that I haven't seen done is inviting the local law firms, the local law students, the local paralegals, and marketing professionals in the area that don't typically travel, that don't get to have those types of in-person events. Here's a place to come and meet other people in the industry who are just like you. That's what we have coming.
SONYA PALMER:
I love it. What is the secret promise of The League?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
We have your back. You can be yourself. You don't have to put on a face. You can be vulnerable, you can be authentic, you can be ambitious, you can be driven, and you're going to be supported no matter how you're feeling or who you are. That's what I want. I want everyone part of this to feel like they're wanted and needed and utilized as a part of this group. Let's take your talents and let them shine, and how can we benefit from them as well? I want it to be that type of symbiotic type of relationship.
SONYA PALMER:
I love it. And where can women go to find out more?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
www. TheLeague.law
SONYA PALMER:
Oh, you got .law, good for you.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yeah, we always get our domains on .law.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah. That was good. Good for you. Outside of The League, is there anything you're optimistic about?
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
I am optimistic about where our industry is headed in general. I see a shift just with the percentage of women I see on the speaking circuit. There's been a huge percentage change over the last five years, and I don't see that stopping, and I see that trickle out in many different areas in the industry. So I'm very optimistic about shifting the narrative that the legal industry is this male-dominated boys club. Because not only am I seeing more women involved, but I also am seeing more men who are just so stoked to have more women involved. And so many companies that want to recruit are making that part of their mission to recruit strong, confident, competent women; that is who they're looking for. So that is exciting for the industry, I think.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes, I agree. And I think you were right earlier, it is a male-dominated industry, but I think in leadership, partnership, and owners. Because you're right, most law firms, lawyers, support, paralegals, and marketing are women. And law students, I think, women outnumber male students. So I think you're right that we've always been here, right? But now we're getting ... A light's being shined, and it is very exciting. And it's not nearly as contentious as I think people think that it is. As I said, so many men are very, very, very excited.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Oh, when I say it's a male-dominated industry or a boys club, that is the perception. That's the narrative. I don't think that that is the reality of, at least, the majority of the people I meet. The men and women I have met in this industry are some of the most inspiring and encouraging human beings I've ever come across; they are like, "Whatever you want to do, we'll support you." And that's exciting. And I think that's very different. And it goes back to my philosophy of work-life integration. Because if those people are so inspiring, and they've done so well for themselves and are supportive of my hopes and dreams, why wouldn't I want to be their friend? Why wouldn't I want to make that part of ... Like introduce them to my family, go on vacation with these people? I don't think that has to be separate at all.
SONYA PALMER:
No, again, I completely agree. It goes back to what you said about your mentor, where you want to be here in 20 years, and having these people that they are doing what I want to be doing. That's the trajectory. Male or female, you want those people in your life.
CARSON BAYER GILLESPIE:
Yeah. Absolutely. And why wouldn't you want to develop real, authentic personal relationships with that person? That's how you grow. That's like how you develop.
SONYA PALMER:
So often, we struggle to strike the perfect work-life balance, but the magic happens when we integrate work and life by blending our personal and professional relationships. Carson and Melissa created the League to spark the relationships that have the power to transform and create a space to foster the development of women in every aspect of their lives. Thank you to Carson for sharing her story and unbelievable insights with us today. You have been listening to LawHer with me, Sonya Palmer. If you found this content insightful, inspiring, or just made you smile, please share this episode with a trailblazer. For more about Carson and The League, check out our show notes, and while you're there, please leave us a review or a five-star rating. It goes a long way for others to discover the show. And I will see you next week on LawHer, where we'll shed light on how another of the brightest and boldest women in the legal industry climbed to the top of her field.
