Kamay Lafalaise:
Cooking, for me, has been one of the ways that I cope with an unpredictable life, let's say. And I hope that listeners can feel like they can trust themselves. If you really want something, it's not going to be easy. It's probably going to be scary and likely going to be horrible sometimes, but don't let that stop you from just trying.
Sonya Palmer:
For the eighth consecutive year, women outnumbered men in law schools across the nation, yet this wave of change has not reached the shores of power. Women hold just 25% of seats at the table as board members and managing partners, but the tides are turning. Women in law are no longer meekly waiting for an invitation. They are boldly striking out, creating a future where success is defined on their own terms, and law firms fit into their lives, not the other way around. As this new generation of trailblazers rises, we stand with them ready to amplify their voices and fuel the transformation. This is LawHer.
I am Sonya Palmer, your host and VP of operations at Rankings, the SEO agency supporting you in claiming your rightful place at the top. We're serving up the final course in our Art of Negotiation series and dishing out an episode that's as multifaceted as our guest.
Meet Kamay Lafalaise. By day, she's negotiating the complex landscape of privacy law at the Federal Trade Commission. By night, she's turning up the heat as a contestant on MasterChef. Kamay is shattering stereotypes and rebuilding success in her own image.
As a first generation lawyer and millennial trailblazer, Kamay's story is one of negotiating not just in the courtroom, but with life itself. She's crafting a career that combines her legal expertise with her passion for cooking, proving that success and joy aren't mutually exclusive. In this episode, we'll explore how Kamay navigates the ever-shifting terrain of privacy law bringing creativity and adaptability to a field where the rules seem to change daily.
But more than that, we'll delve into how she's designed a life that honors all aspects of her identity. We'll tackle the question many of us grapple with, how do we pursue our passions without compromising our professional commitment? Kamay's journey offers inspiring insights into creating a life that's both successful and fulfilling on her own terms. From the halls of the FTC to the MasterChef kitchen, Kamay is redefining what it means to be a successful lawyer in the Millennial era. She's living proof that we can negotiate our way to a life that embraces our whole selves.
Let's dive in.
Kamay Lafalaise:
I think it's hard to find a pivotal moment that inspired me to go into law until I get to college, which I'm happy to speak more about then. But I do know what pushed me to go into public service, and that's part of what I do now. I work for the Federal Government as an attorney, and that was honestly being raised by two Haitian immigrant parents and who were particularly on the younger side when they had me. My mom was 20, and I believe my dad was 22.
So they'd come to the United States from Haiti as teenagers, and they didn't know anything. They didn't even know the language really, but they quickly learned a lot about the country, how it works. They went to school and they got jobs. Seeing how determined they were and just learning more about the difficulties and the realities of life at an early age I think really helped me want to understand how to bring value into my community and beyond. Public service was something at the forefront.
That said, when I was younger I was being told, "You should be a doctor," or, "You should be an engineer," and lawyer was always last. And so I spent most of my life, including my early years of college, pursuing pre-med.
Sonya Palmer:
And you were the first lawyer in your family. How did you navigate the challenges of entering a profession without a familial roadmap?
Kamay Lafalaise:
Simply put, it is hard. It is like walking into a dark forest and you have no map and all you can do is go through trial and error because what I've learned to appreciate is that people who have established family, they can share knowledge and they can share that knowledge from an early age. So people might sit around the dinner table, for instance, and listen to their parents talk about a particular field that they're in, and they're absorbing knowledge, whether they know it or not, throughout their life, and that better prepares them if they do want to go into a similar field.
Now, my father went into economics, which is wonderful, and my mother was a nurse, so we didn't really talk about the law that much at my dinner table. So when I actually went to law school, the first year was extremely difficult. I just had to navigate basically at learning a new language because when you're learning the law, you have to learn how to speak a different way. You have to learn how to comprehend a completely new terminology.
Luckily for me, I've never been afraid of hard work. I've never been afraid of a challenge. Actually, I really like challenges. So despite how difficult it was, I like to think that it was very good for me. I ended up becoming a teaching assistant my second year of law school because I wanted to help people coming in not be so afraid, basically.
Sonya Palmer:
And the kitchen was the heart of your childhood home. How was your early connection to cooking and that community shaping your professional relationships and networking approach in the legal world?
Kamay Lafalaise:
I grew up watching my maternal grandmother cook because my parents were both working, and it's not to say they didn't spend time with me, but many times my grandmother would watch me and she loved to cook. She was empowering, really funny, and I think because she was a little bit more old school, of course coming from Haiti, she really wanted to get me into cooking at a young age. So she would always invite me into the kitchen. I would be the taste tester, and that was really fun, but I still wasn't really into cooking. I was really into the eating. But what it did was it created a bridge for us. And as I grew older, my mom also threw parties where she would cook a ton of food, invite people over, and everyone would laugh and be happy through really late into the night.
So today I find cooking a huge stress-reliever. I find doing an activity where you're creating something, and for me it's low stakes now, I find that really relieving and comforting, and I love the opportunity to invite people over who I care about. So I have a meal ready for them, I have a roundtable in my dining room and we just talk. And I hate small talk. That's something that I don't share a lot, but I really want to get to know everybody I meet. So I think food is the perfect bridge to help people get more comfortable in just sharing more about themselves.
Sonya Palmer:
I do think there's something so noble is the word that I have about feeding the people that you care about. It's just such a simple, basic, wholesome thing to show someone that you care about them to make a meal for them. So I completely understand that.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Well, thank you for saying that. I find that when I talk to my peers, most of them are busy. A lot of them have children and they say, "I don't have time to cook," or, "I hate cooking," and I can totally appreciate that. I think part of the reason why I just particularly love it is because I've had the opportunity to just put in more time and then it's become more automatic. If I have to cook something really daunting that I've never made before like in the MasterChef kitchen many times, I can see how it could be stressful and more like a chore. But I really appreciate you pointing out how noble that is because I do feel like when I cook for people, it is part of me sharing parts of myself with the other person.
Sonya Palmer:
You're obviously very sure of yourself.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Does it come across that way?
Sonya Palmer:
Yes.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Well, thank you. I don't feel that way all the time, but thank you.
Sonya Palmer:
You do. I like what you said about managing stress too. I think for a lot of people, they look to limit stress or to remove stress from their life, which is impossible and sometimes a better approach is to just learn to manage what you have. And I do think cooking, and then of course cooking on national television in front of Gordon Ramsay, would certainly force you to do that.
Kamay Lafalaise:
I think that is the theme, particularly for Millennials. We have gone through so much in the last two decades, and we are just really coming into our own. Most of us are in our thirties and many of us are starting new phases of life. And learning how to juggle all the different challenges I think really shows you who you are and it's a pivotal point. It could be a tipping point for some people, but I encourage people to get help if they need it. I'll say that now, and I'm glad that Millennials have, I think been the generation to really put mental health on the forefront. When we talk about stress management, I think it's in the same vein as anxiety management. There are really good ways to cope in life, and I think cooking, for me, has been one of the ways that I cope with an unpredictable life, let's say.
Sonya Palmer:
I do think that Millennials are late bloomers. I think we're coming into our own now. Managing anxiety, managing negative emotions can be as simple as cooking. I think sometimes we overcomplicate it, but sometimes it's as simple as making a meal.
Kamay Lafalaise:
I agree. And to that same point, even little things like making your bed, anything that you can have a start, a middle and a finish to accomplish can make all the difference.
Sonya Palmer:
100%. Cooking is such a great example of that too because the first time that you cook a turkey for Thanksgiving, it's so intimidating, but then you do it. You're like, what's next? Let's deep-fry this thing.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Okay, let's deep-fry. Okay, relax. Let's not get crazy. So many house fires happen, people. Do it far away from your house, but that was a quick PSA. But I love that. I love that as a metaphor for life. The first time you cook a Thanksgiving turkey, it's daunting, but then you do it. That's how I've seen all of my life challenges.
On the set of MasterChef, I was the first person to audition. It's edited differently, but when you're told, "You're going to be the first person up there," the nerves start to kick in. All I had to keep telling myself was, "You survived harder things in the past. You're going to be fine and trust yourself." And once I did it, it was great.
And my first year of law school, all three years of law school, daunting. And I had every reason to feel like some days I can't do this. But once you do it, it is done. And I hope that listeners can feel like they can trust themselves. If you really want something, it's not going to be easy. It's probably going to be scary and likely going to be horrible sometimes, but don't let that stop you from just trying, and then you'll have a good turkey.
Sonya Palmer:
As we delve deeper into our conversation with Kamay, we explore a theme that resonates, designing a life of success and joy. Kamay's dual roles as a privacy lawyer and MasterChef contestant challenge conventional notions of what a successful lawyer looks like. Her journey exemplifies the possibility of pursuing diverse passions while maintaining a thriving legal career.
Many professionals, particularly women, often grapple with the fear that exploring interests outside their primary career might be perceived as a lack of commitment. This fear can be a significant barrier to personal fulfillment and professional growth. Kamay shares her insights on cultivating the courage to pursue her passions alongside her legal career. Her experience offers valuable lessons for all of us striving to create a life that balances professional success with personal joy.
Kamay Lafalaise:
On my 30th birthday, which is a pivotal time for a lot of people, particularly women because certain expectations are put upon us from an early age to be married or to start having children by that age, so it's a huge milestone. So I was barreling toward 30 with a lot of anxiety and fear for a number of reasons. And I remember my dad wrote me a very long letter as part of my gift. And I really look up to my dad, and he's incredibly wise. And I'm paraphrasing parts of what he said here, but essentially he said becoming an adult is finding ways to overcome your fear. There will be always something new to fear, but you will not be alone in that feeling, but you are solely responsible for managing and overcoming.
So I've tried very hard to live my life by repeating this notion over and over and understand that, one, if people are going to talk about me for going on a television show and think I'm not committed to my privacy law job that I've been doing for 10 years, then they were going to talk about me anyway. I think that the people also who want to speak negatively about anyone are just insecure within themselves and they're not happy so they look outward to say, "Well, this person isn't all that they're cracked up to be. Something is wrong with them." So there will always be those people, and you cannot let that possibility stop you. And I am very proud and glad to see that most people in my life have been very supportive of me going on the show, including my fantastic colleagues at work. But I have had some negative chit-chat from people, but they're not happy. And when you are happy, when you are shining, people will try to dim that light. Don't let them.
Sonya Palmer:
Your journey exemplifies the idea that excellence can be joyous. How do you maintain a sense of joy and fulfillment in both your legal work and your culinary pursuits?
Kamay Lafalaise:
In many ways, I think I'm lucky. I think I'm lucky in the sense that I wake up most mornings feeling joy in my heart, and I think that comes from good genes. Some people cannot wake up and feel that way. And I also have the privilege of having a good job, a good life, a safe home, a home at all. So when you think about joy, it's a privilege, in my opinion, and I think I'm able to identify that as a privilege because I grew up with very little. My parents quickly started finding ways to give me a very stable and great life. Part of that I think was being identified as a "gifted" individual, so that got me into a tracking program for education.
The joy you have to cultivate from within. And if you don't feel joy within yourself, just start creating little habits that will spark moments of joy and keep up with them because life will always find a way to be really hard and it will pour sometimes, metaphorically speaking. But as long as you have a decent support system and you really care about yourself, joy will come.
Sonya Palmer:
What impact do you hope to achieve by being on MasterChef?
Kamay Lafalaise:
I think it's twofold. The first thing, and I get a little bit emotional I think talking about this one because I applied for the show to create and display my grandmother's legacy. My maternal grandmother had a sixth-grade education. She had a difficult life in the States for health reasons and otherwise. And my paternal grandmother died of COVID in Haiti on the same day that the Haitian president was assassinated, so we could not ever go to her memorial because the country was in shambles. So grieving their loss of life felt like an emotional ball that I was trying very hard to manage. And so I just started looking inward to figure out how to show the world that their lives were important, their lives mattered, and their story matters. So I applied to the show, and I wanted them to cook through me.
And the second reason, and the second way I want to impact people by being on the show is to just break stereotypes, break stereotypes about Black women, break stereotypes about women, lawyers, LGBT people. I mean, I think I read a statistic a few years ago that said only 3% of attorneys in this country are Black women, 3%. So when you're watching TV, and if you see me on MasterChef, certain biases might come to your mind first. But I want to show people that Black women are not a monolith, and we have a lot more in common, that I have a lot more in common with many people than you might think at first watch.
Sonya Palmer:
You are absolutely breaking those stereotypes. It's exactly what I noticed about you when we first saw the show. I am very confident that your cooking skills are incredible, but I have to believe that the story, your emotions, your feelings behind it have definitely added to your success on the show as well.
Kamay Lafalaise:
I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. Speaking of fear, again, it's hard to be vulnerable. It's hard to be vulnerable with people you trust and know, but imagine being vulnerable on a television show where millions of people are watching. So it's been a lot of self, I would say, security and knowing that I will not let myself down. I know some people may misunderstand me because I'm a new type of person for many people, but I really hope that some people can see me the way that you see me, so thank you for that.
Sonya Palmer:
I like that, a new type of person. I also appreciated what you said earlier too. I think people would be surprised by how much we all have in common. I don't know what it is, society, the news, the internet, social media is just intent on highlighting everybody's differences, and I think if we all just made up our minds to just try to find something in common, the world would be a better place.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Absolutely. It's really depressing sometimes how tribal people tend to be, and I understand that. I really do, but we're not going to get anywhere if we continue to be so judgmental and scared of each other. And I honestly think that starts with education. If people are willing to learn, I think they will be less fearful.
Sonya Palmer:
We turn our focus to Kamay's legal career, particularly her expertise in privacy and consumer protection law. This area of practice is at the forefront of today's rapidly evolving digital landscape, making it a fascinating lens through which to explore the art of negotiation.
In the realm of privacy law, the ground is constantly shifting. New technologies emerge, societal norms change and regulations struggle to keep pace. This dynamic environment presents unique challenges for legal professionals. Kamay explains her approach to navigating these waters when the legal landscape itself is in flux.
Kamay Lafalaise:
We get this question a lot. We, as in my colleagues at the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, and I am a data security and privacy attorney in the division of privacy and identity protection. I would say once you realize that practically every interaction you have in your day is a form of negotiation, I think you start to learn that you have more power than you think.
And another thing that is I think relevant for many women is that when you're thinking about negotiation, people tend to conflate politeness or impoliteness with being overly direct. So I think when you're negotiating, particularly as a woman, you should be direct, ask for exactly what you want. And some people may perceive that as unkind, but of course that's because society grooms or teaches women to be quiet and most importantly, accepting of whatever terms that they're given. So even if you ask a simple question, sometimes it's viewed as you don't trust somebody and that's further from the case. I think a very good negotiator is somebody who listens, asks a lot of questions, and is willing to compromise.
So with the backdrop of an ever-shifting legal landscape, it's difficult, I have to admit. But the FTC is doing an incredible job dealing with generative AI, children's privacy issues. That's another big one. Even today, we actually settled a case with a company that was, it's an anonymous messaging app that was falsely claiming that its AI tools would filter out cyber bullying. And this is what children are dealing with these days. They wake up, they have her phone, they have a computer, and all of a sudden they're bombarded with negative messages. So that's a lot for one agency to try to combat, but we are doing our very best to try to make an imprint where we can.
But we just need some federal privacy legislation. We don't have that right now. That would be an incredible tool for us to just really start being able to do more. But with the tools we have, which is mostly right now the Federal Trade Commission Act, pardon me, Section 5 in particular, we are just looking for as many unfairness or deceptive cases that we can find to just do our best with what we have and help protect consumers.
Sonya Palmer:
I'd like to touch on tactics for negotiation that may be more universally applicable. What I've found hosting LawHer and talking to so many incredible women is that I feel like lawyers who are women, they've been taught negotiation. They have experience in negotiation in the courtroom, and because of that, they then have so much to teach other women. They're trained for it and then they've practiced it. Tell me about listening to understand and how this approach might reveal underlying concerns or motivations that aren't explicitly stated by corporate representatives.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Well, I think one of the most important things to keep in mind when engaging in negotiations is that it's not personal. I have seen and been part of many negotiations where our side believes one thing reasonably and the other side is adamant that our understanding is just wrong. So if you're looking at a picture, let's say, and it's green to you and the other side is saying it's blue or red, you say, "Okay, well I'm willing to listen to you," but inherently you feel like I'm not an idiot. Why are you telling me it's not this? So I think universally one thing to keep in mind is just don't take anything personally. And if someone says something across the table to you that just does not align with your reality, just ask why they feel that way and hear them out. And usually we can get to a sort of consensus because we don't always have all the information at the time, and that is exactly why we're discussing with them in the first place.
I think people think that negotiations are also a way for people to just come in and know exactly what they want. Well, I hate to break it to you, but either side rarely gets exactly what they want. You're going to find a meeting place and the best negotiations I've been involved in are when both parties come in with decent or goodwill or good intent. It's very hard to navigate that at the beginning because people tend to be defensive. So I think another piece of advice is to give it time because over time you get to know people's personalities, you get to understand what their intent really is based on the types of questions they're asking you and how they're asking it.
So if things aren't going well in the beginning, I would say don't be disheartened, don't take certain behavior. If it's negative, don't be afraid to say, "This is unacceptable to me," or I've never had to do that, but I've heard stories. But speak up for yourself, advocate for yourself, maintain professionalism. And if you don't know something, and this is a big one, if you don't know something, don't be afraid to say it. I think people are really worried about that too in negotiations. They think they have to know everything, they have to know every response, but let the other party know, hey, I need to think more about that and just get back to them.
Sonya Palmer:
How do you prepare to expect the unexpected, like a last-minute information dump?
Kamay Lafalaise:
Oh, well, I don't know, maybe I'm a little bit more experienced in this because in college actually I was part of a few improv groups, so I don't pretend to be that funny. I'm not going to say that, but it really helped me get comfortable with the unexpected. I don't love surprises, particularly at work, but I know that it happens. And part of negotiation in particular is discovering new information you didn't know. So if there's an information dump, something that might be overwhelming, something you didn't expect, I'm never afraid to say, "Hey, thank you for sharing this information. I need time to digest it. I will get back to you in writing or we're going to have another call to discuss." That just goes back to not being afraid to advocate for yourself because you're more in control than you think.
Sonya Palmer:
Let's use big data as an example of the far-reaching impact of privacy and consumer protection. Big data is literally everywhere. It's data from our phones and all connected devices and know it is a concept that most people are currently familiar with. The FTC has been working on educating and advocating for the public as far back to 2014. What are the key privacy challenges that have emerged as big data collection has become more pervasive across devices and platforms?
Kamay Lafalaise:
See, that took a lot of you just to ask. Imagine having to navigate this.
Sonya Palmer:
What are we doing about it?
Kamay Lafalaise:
Right, what are we doing about it? So part of the fun of this job is that you are learning something new every single day. Right now, AI is such a big topic for us and we're really trying to figure out where it's going, how we can make sure people are protected from it, and it's only going to make big data bigger. So data mining, commercial surveillance, these are all issues that the FTC is paying a lot of attention to. And of course, I can't get into what we're actively investigating, but we've had some really great cases that I highly recommend people look into.
One that comes to mind recently was the Ring case, the Ring camera, and a lot of people have that. It's pretty ubiquitous now. It's almost more popular than actual doorbells. But there were some unfair and deceptive issues where some of the employees of Ring had unauthorized access to people's cameras. So I raised that one in particular because it's not just Ring necessarily. There's other companies, but every device has capabilities, for the most part, where people can hack, people can get in and use your data against you, or you can become a victim of identity theft. And all I can say is that the FTC alone cannot solve every issue, but we play such an important role in being the pioneer of trying to make sure companies are doing right by consumers and that they're protecting the data that they have and that they are limiting data too.
So big data, we want to minimize it. So if a company isn't actually using your information, we're encouraging companies to actually delete it after a certain amount of time. But of course, these companies have taken up all this data over the past two decades, and they're hoarding it because they don't know what's coming in the future, they don't know if it's valuable. So we've taken a strong stance on that on some of our recent cases as well, and I'm very proud. I worked on one of those cases, and it's sending a signal to the field that we will be looking into companies that aren't being fair in the way that they are handling data.
Sonya Palmer:
Good. What lessons can we learn from the FTC's early work on big data that apply to emerging technologies today?
Kamay Lafalaise:
I think one lesson that comes to mind is that the way a company treats, protects, stores, maintains its data should ever be evolving, just like technology is. Think about 10, 20 years ago, what was our tech? It was like AOL, AIM and-
Sonya Palmer:
Floppy disks.
Kamay Lafalaise:
...floppy disks, exactly. So the rules back then do not apply to what the rules are today. So at least in the early days, even in an ever-changing field with no federal privacy legislation, we were working with what we had. So I think it's wonderful that the FTC has even been involved in that space or in this space since the beginning. And like the industry, we have also changed the way we hold companies accountable when it comes to managing data. And we expect companies to also take responsibility as well and do the right thing before we have to ask them to do the right thing.
Sonya Palmer:
While this is terrifying, it's also very refreshing because as we talk, you mentioned AI, it's this massive conversation with all these repercussions. I like to encourage progressive tech. I'm an early adopter, but I don't think enough people are talking about the dangers to consumers around AI. To me, that is the real threat, so it makes me feel better that people like you are thinking about those things.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Thank you. And honestly, I totally agree with you. I think most people are not even... Forget talking about it, they don't even know about the dangers. I was looking up some statistics before we spoke, and according to the CDC, about 21% of teenagers, ages 12 to 17 years old, have experienced a major depressive episode, and about 20% have considered attempting suicide. These numbers are only getting higher. A lot of people have said, and a lot of researchers found technology may be playing a role. Of course, it's very difficult to know, but I wouldn't be surprised given this type of stuff that we've already spoken about, cyber bullying, exposure to a lot of information, lack of actual relationships in real life with people.
Even though technology has incredible benefits, and I agree with you, it's generally a good thing, I wish that people understood the dangers of overexposure or of technology evolving too fast without taking a second to really understand and appreciate what are the risks involved. I keep going back to children and teens because they're the future. What is happening to them now is going to have an effect on us in 20, 30 years from now, and I don't know what type of environment we've created for them, like a literal hot globe environment and the online environment. I think they're navigating really difficult issues and circumstances right now, and I just, I'm glad that the FTC is taking on more cases through what's called the COPPA Rule, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act.
Sonya Palmer:
The rapid evolution of technology coupled with the recent global events, like the COVID-19 pandemic, has created a unique environment with little historical precedent. This emerging presents both challenges and opportunities, particularly in the legal field. We're navigating uncharted waters with limited data to guide us on the long-term effects of these changes on different generations. Interestingly, this season of MasterChef where Kamay is competing has a generational theme.
Kamay represents the Millennial generation, as do I, which bridges the gap between an analog past and the digital present. As Millennials have entered the legal profession in significant numbers, they've brought with them new perspectives and approaches. We explore how Kamay's experience as a Millennial lawyer differs from the previous generations. Her insights offer a valuable window into the changing face of the legal profession and how different generations are adapting to and shaping these changes.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Well, I think the first thing that comes to mind is diversity. There's definitely a stereotype that many people think of lawyers, and unfortunately, I've definitely been a stereotype myself. When I was in certain internships or externships where I would go to the courthouse, for instance, the security guards would always assume I was coming there for a traffic ticket or they never thought I was a lawyer. That was the last thing on their minds. And when I said, "Oh no, I'm an attorney," and this was only because I would need a certain badge, when I finally said, "I'm an attorney," they would look at me like I had three heads. It was always like, "What? You?"
Sonya Palmer:
Yes, me.
Kamay Lafalaise:
So on one hand, I guess that could be flattering in some world, but I mostly felt annoyed that people never pegged me as an attorney. And even judges, once I actually got into the courtroom, they were very confused or surprised that I was in law school or an attorney.
So the landscape, I think, has become a lot more diverse, and from my experience at least, I think Millennials have been able to put forth more creative legal arguments. And that might come from diversity of thought, who knows? But as you know, the law can be very template-driven. We've done this before. We're going to do it the same way. We're going to do it like this because it works. But just because something works doesn't mean you can't add a little spice. Just like my food, it has a little spice in it, a little razzle-dazzle. And I think we've put just more emphasis on certain areas of importance where I think the generations before us were solely focused on the work. And I think Millennials are focused on work-life balance, more mental health awareness, and so I'm really proud of that.
Sonya Palmer:
I think you're a perfect example of that too where work-life balance gets talked about a lot, but where the life can make the work better. It's not necessarily that you're stealing from one or giving to the other, but being a chef can make you a better lawyer. There are things that relate in that way. And I do think Millennials are demonstrating that really well, that what happens outside of work can actually make them better at their jobs.
And I love what you said about diversity. I think that's probably true. It almost makes me want to look some stuff up because I believe diversity is a good thing for business and for professions and that Millennials, that they are more diverse, that they do have more creative arguments because there's more different perspectives, I think it's true.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Yeah, exactly.
Sonya Palmer:
So I love that.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Thank you, thank you.
Sonya Palmer:
What unique perspectives do you think your generation brings to the legal profession?
Kamay Lafalaise:
I think we bring more humanity into the legal profession in many ways. I think that's something people don't often consider when they're thinking about the law. And some people, particularly those people who've never been to law school, I've read and seen people say, "Well, the law is the law. If you break the law, you go to jail." Again, it's just ridiculous. But I think Millennials, because we've gone through so much, we've seen so many tragedies and so many unprecedented times, I think we tend to be more global in our perspective. And of course, what informs the law? Policy, they go hand in hand. So if you have a more diverse perspective, more diverse experiences, you will bring that to work, you will bring that to your thought process, and that will, of course, show in your work product.
Sonya Palmer:
I love what MasterChef is doing this season because they've brought you all on to pit you against one another, but like what we talked about earlier, I think the intention there is to show what everyone has in common, that food unites. There's so much talk about generations and the differences and animosity, and I do think that the show so far is doing a great job of actually highlighting what's in common.
Kamay Lafalaise:
That's absolutely right.
Sonya Palmer:
What gives you the greatest hope and optimism for the future of women in the legal industry?
Kamay Lafalaise:
I think what gives me the greatest hope for women in the legal industry is just how quickly we have been able to incorporate ourselves into the field. I haven't checked recently, but I think I checked a few years ago and it was almost statistically 50/50, maybe women were a little more so when looking at how many women were in law school compared to men. So the fact that more women are going to law school, more women are becoming partners at law firms, not enough, but more, I feel pretty good about the future.
That said, that's against the backdrop of a Supreme Court right now that it seems to be rolling back a lot of rights for particular groups and that has ripple effects. That actually has effects on people's personal lives. So I don't know what the political landscape holds. I don't know where we will be in the next decade or 30 or 50 years, but I do know it's a pendulum. And generally, as history shows, we have been making strides forward.
Sonya Palmer:
Absolutely. When we started LawHer, that statistic was 18% of women in leadership or managing positions. Today that statistic is 25%.
Kamay Lafalaise:
There you go.
Sonya Palmer:
So you're absolutely correct. We do outnumber women to men in law school, but it is getting better. So last question, what's for dinner tonight?
Kamay Lafalaise:
I love that you asked that. I very intentionally am choosing to order in. Listen, it's been a very crazy past couple months. I'm exhausted, but very excited about our conversation.
Sonya Palmer:
Me too.
Kamay Lafalaise:
But I'm ordering hopefully some Thai food.
Sonya Palmer:
Is there a cocktail? I know you like to make drinks too.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Someone's been on my Instagram page. A cocktail, well maybe some wine, I think.
Sonya Palmer:
Okay.
Kamay Lafalaise:
Tonight's a wine night.
Sonya Palmer:
As we close this enlightening conversation with Kamay, we also wrap up our Art of Negotiation series and the second season of LawHer. What a journey it's been. Exploring what it takes to launch a firm, learning from the titans of tech, and discovering the intricacies of the art of negotiation through the lens of remarkable women in law.
Kamay's story beautifully encapsulates the themes we've explored this season. She reminds us that success and law and personal fulfillment aren't mutually exclusive, but rather complementary forces that can propel us forward. Let's carry forward Kamay's negotiation wisdom. Embrace directness, articulate your worth and aspirations clearly, listen actively to uncover unspoken motivations and concerns, approach differences with curiosity rather than defensiveness, acknowledge when you need time or information. It's a sign of strength, not weakness. These skills extend far beyond the negotiating table, shaping how we navigate our careers and lives.
This season, we've witnessed the remarkable progress women are making in law. From courtrooms to boardrooms, we're not just entering the field, we're reshaping it. Since this show's inception three years ago, the percentage of women in leadership positions has grown from 18% to 25%, a testament to our collective resilience and ambition.
As we conclude this season, remember, your unique experiences, perspectives and passions are not distractions from your legal career. They're the very elements that make you an invaluable asset to this profession. By bringing your whole self to your work, you're not only enriching the legal field, but also paving the way for future generations of women in law.
And while this marks the end of our second season, it's just the beginning of the change we are creating together. Keep negotiating, keep shattering stereotypes, and above all, keep finding joy in your journey. Thank you for joining us this season on LawHer. We're excited to continue this important conversation in our next season. Until then, remember, your voice matters, your ambitions are valid, and your potential is limitless. Here is to the future of women in law, bright, bold, and unapologetically brilliant.
