Ariana Tadler:
Harness it, be responsible about it, see the opportunity, and then how do you see the opportunity as a growth?
Sonya Palmer:
As a new law firm, we're willing to adopt new tools, new technology, new tactics to take care of the team that was then going to take care of your clients. And it is different.
Ariana Tadler:
Many of us often have that moment of, can we really say that? And then I immediately did that check on myself and said, "Hell yeah," because that is what we do. We come in confidently. We've done our homework, we are ready for the conversation.
Sonya Palmer:
For the eighth consecutive year, women outnumbered men in law schools across the nation. Yet this wave of change has not reached the shores of power. Women hold just 25% of seats at the table as board members and managing partners, but the tides are turning. Women in law are no longer meekly waiting for an invitation. They are boldly striking out, creating a future where success is defined on their own terms. And law firms fit into their lives, not the other way around. As this new generation of trailblazers rises, we stand with them ready to amplify their voices and fuel the transformation. This is LawHer. I am Sonya Palmer, your host and VP of Operations at Rankings, the SEO agency supporting you in claiming your rightful place at the top. We are thrilled to present the second miniseries of season two: Titans of Tech. From solo practitioners to managing partners, from courtroom warriors to tech innovators, we're sharing the stories of women who are redefining what it means to succeed in law. Let's uncover their strategies, celebrate their triumphs, and learn from their journeys together.
Ariana Tadler is a trailblazer who's been reshaping the landscape of complex litigation for over two decades. Ariana isn't just a successful attorney. She's a tech innovator who saw the potential of eDiscovery long before it became a buzzword. As the founder of Tadler Law, Ariana has built a reputation for leveraging technology to level the playing field in high-stakes cases. Her expertise has earned her a seat on the Federal Civil Rules Advisory Committee, where she's helped shape the rules governing electronic discovery nationwide. Ariana's impact goes beyond her legal and tech achievements. She's a champion for women in law, cultivating a firm culture that prioritizes empathy, grit, and innovation. In this episode, we'll explore how Ariana built her niche in eDiscovery, her strategies for owning the room in high-pressure situations and her vision for the future of legal tech. Ariana's insights offer a masterclass in turning technological change into professional opportunity. Let's dive in.
Ariana Tadler:
I have been interested in the practice of law since I was a teenager. Early on at the dinner table in my home with my family, we sat around in a more formal setting for dinner regardless of whatever our potential circumstances were at a given time financially. And part of what was so critical for my family was education and learning up and being a persuasive advocate about whatever it was you were speaking. And so we would have conversations at the dinner table about all sorts of intense topics and you would have to make sure that you were prepared to advocate for whatever your position or opinion was. And then my family also took a trip to Haiti in the 80s and I had the opportunity to see poverty in a way that I really had never seen it or understood it before. And I think putting those two things together were really critical to my interest in becoming somebody who advocates for others.
Sonya Palmer:
I love that. I love that your family dedicated dinner time to that conversation. If you're going to think something, you're going to know why you think it.
Ariana Tadler:
Yes.
Sonya Palmer:
So I really, really love that. You were at one firm for over 20 years. Then in 2019, you took the very bold step of founding your own firm. What was the driving force behind your decision to go out on your own?
Ariana Tadler:
So I had been at my prior firm, as you noted, for over 20 years. It was a firm that I absolutely loved when I joined it in 1997, I was so excited to join the then preeminent firm in that space. And I really grew over time not only as a lawyer, a litigator, and then ultimately into leadership positions, both practicing law as well as becoming a managing partner and a member of the executive committee. And I learned quite a number of skills in that scope and that evolution and ultimately in 2019, made the decision that it was just time for me to do things on my own terms and wanting to also be able to make decisions about the cases that I was practicing or that I was working on, the clients that I was representing. And when you work for a large firm, the responsibilities in terms of inventory, the amount of cases and clients, the number of cases and clients that you represent are much larger in scale.
And when you go small and we call ourselves small and mighty at Tadler Law, you're able to be much more deliberate, selective and strategic. And one of the things that I also had really wanted to do was not only continue doing some of the work I had been doing before in the class action space, as well as continue to deploy our eDiscovery prowess, which we're very well known for. I wanted to take all of those complex litigation skills and deploy them in a way where we could change up the economic model to which I had been accustomed to, which was nearly all contingent work to an economic model where we would do contingent work and we would also do hourly billable work as well as project fee work.
And it allowed us to diversify our practice so that we represent an array of clients and we work on a very diverse set of cases. And it keeps things fluid, it keeps things exciting. I always say, especially when we're deep in the trenches on a tough matter, that's when we're deploying our best skills, that's when we are being the best lawyers that we can be. And I'm reminded in those moments when it's hard, that's why I love practicing law.
Sonya Palmer:
Stress can bring out the best in us versus the worst. Be your best during those tough moments versus stress bringing out the worst. I like that as a concept. Something to aim for. Can you share the story of how you and your partner A.J. came to build Tadler Law?
Ariana Tadler:
Yes. So A.J. de Bartolomeo is my partner at Tadler Law. She is a phenomenal lawyer in her own right. She's also just a phenomenal human being. And she and I had crossed paths periodically over more than two decades. We knew each other, we would see each other at conferences and say hello. And then she had an opportunity to make a move from the firm that she had been at, and she came to my prior firm through an introduction of some new partners where she was looking to change where she was and to go to a new place.
And so she joined that firm and specifically joined my team. And I was thrilled because it was exciting to be working with a woman who really knows herself very, very well. She recognizes her strengths, when she has a skill that perhaps is not as refined or honed, she knows to dig deep and either develop it right then and there or to say, "This is not a sweet spot for me. How can we find a solution?" And I think the best example about A.J. is that A.J. actually went to eDiscovery boot camp that year when she joined, which was phenomenal because she had already been practicing it nearly three decades. And it's unusual for somebody of that level of seniority to go to do that type of boot camp.
Sonya Palmer:
And one of your goals in founding Tadler Law was to redefine what it meant to be a boutique law firm. What does that look like to you? How have you worked to bring that to life?
Ariana Tadler:
So being a boutique firm really is a category that you create for yourself. I think we are utilizing that term in the business of law when we are describing other firm practices, et cetera. And each one of us is likely using that word or phrase slightly differently. For us, it means that we get to curate what it is we want to do, how we do it, and when we do it. And that has proven to be the most exciting and appealing aspect of being at Tadler Law. So there are cases that come in the door, clients that come in the door that might be very reminiscent of cases that A.J. and I and others on the team have worked on.
And some of them are still, yes, we want to do more of those. And some of them might seem very similar, and we say, "No, we actually don't want to do that because there's a different opportunity," whether it's representing an employee from a C-suite position who is leaving a prior position, going to another position, maybe needs some assistance, exit strategy, as well as entry strategy, doing legal risk and litigation risk consulting for entities that are looking at legal matters as the resource for which funding might be provided. We really enjoy that because we've touched so many cases. Being involved in cutting edge data breach matters or consumer fraud or deceptive practice cases, those are exciting.
And we have also spent the time thinking about what is culture like in a big firm versus what do we want the culture to be like in our firm? And the culture in our firm may not be right for any other firm, big, small, medium, doesn't matter. We just know that we continue to hone the culture for our firm, and we have actually gone out and hired specialists who work with our team collectively and independently to make sure that we enhance that experience.
Sonya Palmer:
You have described the culture by being fueled by genuine empathy, grit, and unbound energy. How do you cultivate that? That's a very well-defined culture. How do you bring that out in your team?
Ariana Tadler:
When Tadler Law was first launched, it was just about nine months before the pandemic and the shutdown in our main offices in New York. And so at the time, most people, not everybody, most people were in a traditional New York office. And then of course everybody was remotely wherever they were. Some people even moved during the course of that shutdown to find better places to live and sometimes even went to really farther away places. And so we started engaging in a variety of different practices that we have. So we had already thankfully just done extensive training on Microsoft Teams before we actually were in the lockdown. So that was very critical to our being up and running immediately. Then we started seeing over time that everybody really did want to continue to be remote for the most part. And we thought, okay, well how do you get that experience of learning through osmosis?
The best example I can give is when you're in an office, you're suddenly standing in somebody's doorway and asking a question or there's a prompt, "Hey, I'm dealing with this. How would you deal with that?" Also, trying to recognize when people are under either intellectual, psychological stress versus physical stress. You might see that in person. You might not necessarily notice that if you're all doing this video conferencing all day long. We have actually engaged those skills, again, having bringing some outside consultants in. And so we've spent the time in some hard conversations, and we do try to do that quarterly. Sometimes we do it more frequently and most of the times, if we're doing it more frequently, we're doing it like this. However, we also insist on people coming to New York so that we're all together, we go to a location and we do a retreat style event where we bring facilitators in to talk about, "Okay, what are the ways that you are going to learn best?"
So you, for example, might learn, well by spending time with somebody going line by line through a brief. Somebody else might not communicate as well, or maybe that's just not their fundamental best approach. Every person on our team has taken the DISC assessment, so we also know who communicates best and how. And so coming back to those words like grit, endurance, commitment, how do we get there? It is about constantly engaging the team and we have some unique things that we've put in place. So we have a team huddle to start the week every week. We also have things like coffee hour or coffee break, and cameras are on. You're more than welcome to show up if you happen to have half an hour and you want to catch up with people, that's the time to learn, oh, what's happening in lives, what might be stressing them, what might really be creating great happiness or joy that we want to celebrate?
And then we also have something called study hall, which is cameras are on, you show up, mics are off, you are working on your project, whatever that task might be. And you also have the opportunity to flip a mic on in case you have a question or a thought or something that you could contribute to what somebody else is doing. Is it perfect? No. Then again, I can attest that people who are working in person together trying to find those fundamentals, they're struggling because a lot of people, even though it's an onsite or come to work environment, not everybody's coming to work on the same schedule, some people are not coming to work at all and they're losing out on that opportunity. So we're making sure that opportunity is constantly in place so that we can really capitalize on it.
And you were generous to also mention empathy. I think it's really critical for leaders to understand that empathy is a superpower. If you deploy empathy, meaning you actually listen, you watch for the signs, you're receptive to what others are sharing, both verbally and also through body language, you are able to actually find solutions. And at Tadler Law, we're problem solvers, and I want to make sure that we're problem solvers for our clients, in our cases. When we have a judge or an arbitrator maybe who doesn't understand exactly what we're talking about, that we take those skills and put them right back in place, listening, looking for cues, recognizing when somebody's just not getting it. Well, rather than double down and just repeat one's self, take a minute and start asking questions to see where's the gap. And I think all of those skills play into again, that empathy, that grit, the endurance, the commitment.
Sonya Palmer:
I want to unpack some of that. I could talk about remote work environments or fully distributed teams forever, but there's really good leadership in what you said. Both at the start of the pandemic, people were sort of forced to do this. But that you as a new law firm, were willing to adopt new tools, new technology, new tactics to take care of the team that was then going to take care of your clients. And it is different. I've seen a lot of firms who were just trying to do what they were doing in person at home, and it's not the same. It is different, especially during the pandemic where people were feeling all kinds of things, to just create an environment to foster it, to be empathetic to the people that work for you. "Hey, I'm having a weird day. I am not sure what's up, but I'm not at my best." And just to create an environment where an employee that wants to contribute, that wants to work hard, to be comfortable, to have an environment like that is so important.
I think that's what's going to separate successful firms from those that might not reach their goals. So kudos to you for that, being willing to adopt that technology. I think it's extremely important.
Ariana Tadler:
Thank you.
Sonya Palmer:
In the male-dominated world of law, women often struggle to assert their presence and authority. That's why I was particularly intrigued by Ariana's firm tagline, "Owning the room." It's a powerful concept that speaks to confidence, leadership and commanding respect. Qualities that are crucial for women and law to cultivate. This phrase goes beyond just making an impression. It's about establishing yourself as a force to be reckoned with, whether you're in a courtroom, a boardroom, or a client meeting. For women who often face unconscious bias or are underestimated, the ability to own the room can be a game changer. I wanted to dig deeper into what this means for Ariana and how it shapes her approach to practicing law.
Ariana Tadler:
So that tagline was created by our marketing specialist who did a very deep dive with not only me, also other members of the firm, asking questions about what do we each think about our experience at the firm? What is it that we do? How do we feel? And ultimately, this individual created a number of different potential taglines, did not tell us which one he thought was best. He shared all of the variety that he had, and he said, "I know which one I love the most. You let me know which one, and then we can see where we end up." And I did choose the one he had chosen immediately with a moment, a moment of reluctance, which I think is a natural emotion maybe to have for women. And I'm not saying we should have it, I'm saying I think many of us often have that moment of reluctance or reticence. "Can we really say that? Is it okay for us to boldly say that?"
And then I immediately did that check on myself and said, "Hell yeah." Because that is what we do. When we come into a boardroom, a conference room or a courtroom, we come in confidently, we've done our homework, we are ready for the conversation. And sometimes you walk into one of those rooms with an expectation that you need to go in and grab the win immediately. And sometimes it's actually owning the room by going in again, deploying that empathy, that grit, that confidence where much more of your time in whatever room you're in is going to be reading the room, asking questions, discerning what really is happening and what is it that people believe they can achieve, and where might you be able to create some flexibility or pivoting? And that in and of itself is owning the room.
Sonya Palmer:
100%. I love that it's owning the room and not necessarily winning. Because when you say owning, to me that's more about I'm going to control what's going to happen here. Just like you said, there's not necessarily this set step, I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. I'm going to walk in, I'm going to read the room, I'm going to assess it based on the research I've done, the work that I've done, and then I'm going to own it. I love that. It's a fantastic tagline. When I saw it when we talked, I loved it. How do you then cultivate, I'm going to own the room in this very high stakes situation, I'm going to be my best when it's the hardest, how do you cultivate that?
Ariana Tadler:
So I am an avid learner. If my family were surrounding me, whether it were my children who are grown men now, my husband, my sister, my mom, my brother, all of them would say, "Ariana is one of these people who is just like a sponge. She just wants to learn." And as much as fictional reading is enjoyable, I am much more likely going to be seen reading or listening to something about learning up on a skill. And so for me, it was really more about focusing in and saying, "Okay, how do I make sure that I am going to be in a peak state?" Okay, so P-E-A-K state.
And what that means is that I have to have the right energy, especially when something's going to be hard. Maybe there are going to be challenging people on the other side. Maybe the level of emotion in the room is going to be toxic. Maybe there is going to just be a lot of emotion, sadness, grief, of feeling undeserving, underserved, any of those things or feeling wrong. And any side in a conversation can feel some or all of those things. And then you also can walk into a room where your adversary or just the person on the other side of the conversation already believes they are in the power position.
So how do I have to make sure that I can manage and thrive in that situation? I make sure that I come at those opportunities. Before I walk in the room, I get myself into a peak state. There are certain stances that we can take. We can put ourselves into warrior mode. There are some great imagery on our website. If you see that, you'll know. Some of those stances are very important to us. There's also something that is taught including by a variety of really great resources out there. I'm not trying to endorse anybody here where if you know you're going to be potentially fatigued, taking a step outside, really jumping up and down, getting yourself into this physicality. So it's not just about stance, it's also about getting that adrenaline moving, getting your oxygen moving, making sure that you're breathing. So think about it.
If you are needing to make decisions or you are needing to negotiate something, you actually need to be listening, you need to be thinking, you need to be speaking. And many people, and I know this is true of myself. Sometimes when I'm thinking really hard, if I pay attention, I realize I'm not really breathing. Hold your breath. However, think about it, your body thrives on having enough oxygen and with your blood being oxygenated and moving. And so I've actually been over time, implementing some additional physicality before I enter a room. If I feel that I'm in the middle of something and I have this sense that things are not going well, or I'm not feeling great, or I'm feeling tired, I will excuse myself and I might be taking a bio break. The bio break is not necessarily what everybody thinks it is. The bio break includes putting myself back into a peak state.
Sonya Palmer:
This is great advice. I think so many women, particularly women lawyers, they hear these successful stories and they're like, "How do I do that?" But what you're really talking about is being prepared, which a lot of, I feel, female attorneys are probably pretty good at. And so much focus gets put on mindset. Think this way, believe this way, have positive thoughts. But what you're talking about is physical, like move your body. Think about the actual physical elements, and that's maybe even easier. Take five minutes to make sure that you're at peak. It feels more tangible to me than some of the other advice that gets put out there.
Ariana Tadler:
Yes. So I think the physicality is really important. I don't think that many people have taught about this. Tony Robbins is somebody who really talks about it. Other consultants out there also talk about it. And if you really bring it back to basics, it is connected to some of the things we have been taught about breathing, about having a positive mindset. I will say I think it is really important for us to recognize being our best cheerleader for ourselves. It's great to build a team that will cheer you on. We ourselves have to be looking in the mirror and saying, "You go, girl. You got this." That's a Mel Robbins, a lot of Robbins out there.
Mel Robbins is all about the high five challenge. Absolutely. Look at yourself in the mirror. Doesn't matter if you just rolled out of bed and reminding yourself, this is a new day. The sun came up. Even if it's not sunny out, the sun came up, a new day, a new opportunity for whatever positive impact you can have on the world today. You could touch one life, you could make one change for yourself, any of those things. Or you could have a much broader impact.
And when we remind ourselves how hard we work, all the things that we've accomplished to get ourselves here, even if we have bigger dreams, bigger aspirations, reminding ourselves of those moments and putting ourselves into that positive state, both physically and psychologically, it pushes us forward. And I know I'm always reminded when I put myself in a place of gratitude to say thank you for everything that has come my way. I say something regularly, "Thank you for the abundance that's been bestowed upon me. Thank you for the abundance that's forthcoming."
Sonya Palmer:
You have mentioned the tall poppy syndrome, which what you're suggesting here is almost the opposite of that. Like forwarding that, combating that where people ... Tall poppy syndrome is where people will intentionally try to undercut those who are succeeding. Have you experienced that in your own career?
Ariana Tadler:
100%. And tall poppy syndrome is a concept that I've only recently heard. It's been in the news in the first quarter of 2024, quite a bit. And yes, I have experienced it. I didn't know that's what it at the time, although I did know that A, there were people who were trying to cut me down and that it was affecting me emotionally. And yet when I look back and think about those experiences, some of which were really pretty miserable, pretty cruel. I'm also reminded that although I stepped away, disappointed, depressed, anxious, I came back pretty quickly sometimes in the same conversation and said, "No, I'm not going to put up with that." And I think the best examples I can give, and given the context of this wonderful podcast, I actually had people say to me once I was put in management over time, "Well, you're only here because you are the note taker. You're the bag carrier. Oh, by the way, yes, you are in this position, you have the title. However, it would be really better if you could just maybe be quiet, at least for the early stages."
And I finally said in those situations, "First of all, I'm not a note taker or a bag carrier. There's a reason why that partner who is lead is telling the judge, 'I'm going to have Ariana Tadler answer that question because she's the one who knows the answer.' Thank you." And in those instances where it was, "Be quiet," I said, "If that's what you really feel, then why is it that I was appointed to this position? Is it a placeholder? Is it so that you have the optic? Because I'm not interested in optics and I'm not a placeholder. I'm a doer."
Sonya Palmer:
I love that. Challenge them, kind of force them to say it out loud.
Ariana Tadler:
Yes.
Sonya Palmer:
... What's happening? And I think the input being cheerleaders for all of us and the mindset, all of the stuff that you mentioned is how you can thwart situations like that where people are going to come at it. I guess it just reminds you of the truth when you have those things in place.
Ariana Tadler:
Yes. And I think we spoke about also how critically important it is when we're in a room of people and somebody has an idea and suddenly somebody else promotes that idea as if it were their own, having a responsibility to say, "Oh, thank you so much for reiterating what first person said. Let's delve more deeply. First person, what do you think we might be able to do about that?" So we're validating, we're correcting, and I guess I'm at a point in my life with the number of decades I have already lived on this Earth. Life is just short. Anything could happen and I don't want to go to sleep having a regret about myself. And perhaps more importantly, I don't want to go to sleep having a regret of not having done right by somebody else. That is very important to me. Among my core values, include generosity and kindness.
And I think as a leader now, I'm beginning to really see it in a different light and realizing there are those moments where we need to be more vocal. We need to be ... I don't know if the word is louder. Perhaps it's more emphatic or clearer. We just need to be more clear about what it is that is happening in a given moment. What are we trying to communicate? I just recently was before somebody who gets to make some decisions about a variety of things. And I felt that in the course of this conversation, I was being mansplained, and it was fortuitous that one of the resources that was quoted back to me, I said, "Oh, thank you so much. I'm very familiar with that. Actually, that's 1 out of 12 items. And you might also want to read the following."
We don't have to sit there just because somebody is critical and kind of accept it and hope that the heat is going to go down and then we can bring it back to a place where we're comfortable. No, we can actually remind ourselves that there are things that we might know that the other person doesn't, and that can sometimes reset the tape. Doesn't always. Sometimes somebody who wants to be the way this person was behaving, there was nothing that I was going to say that was going to change this person's mind. However, I also have a responsibility to make a record for my client. That's my job.
Sonya Palmer:
And you don't know who's paying attention also. Even if that person is not affected or their mind is not changed, the influence that that can have on everyone else, there's an impact there.
Ariana Tadler:
That's right. That's right. And we want people to learn also. So we're trying to achieve something in a given conversation or if we're at a hearing or we're negotiating something, we also want the people who are with us, especially on our team, to be learning. This is the only way that they can learn. If all they see is somebody being made to feel uncomfortable or put in her place and nothing more happens, we are reinforcing that kind of behavior that somehow that's acceptable and that that person, the junior person, if they see that, "Well, Ariana, if she didn't speak up, maybe that's what happens. That's how we control the situation."
No, I want to make sure we're making the working world for all of us better. And just recently, I made sure one of our associates called, he had a question. And I said, "You know what? You happen to call me with a question. You have my attention. Let's talk about what else is going on. What are the other things you're working on? What questions do you have?" And one of the things that came up was, "Can I ask you a question about your most recent move in a settlement negotiation? Because I didn't understand it." And I said, "Yes. Let me walk you through it from the beginning."
Sonya Palmer:
As our world becomes increasingly digital, the ability to effectively manage and analyze vast amounts of electronic data can make or break a case. To that end, eDiscovery has become a critical component of modern litigation. Ariana recognized this seismic shift in the legal landscape long before many of her peers. 20 years ago, she established a plaintiff's firm structure focused on eDiscovery, a move that was unprecedented at the time. Her foresight positioned her at the forefront of a revolution in legal practice. For women in law, Ariana's story is particularly inspiring. She identified an emerging field, developed deep expertise, and used that knowledge to carve out a unique and powerful niche. Her success demonstrates how embracing technology and innovation can open new pathways to leadership in our profession. I was eager to understand what led Ariana to recognize the importance of eDiscovery so early on and how that insight has shaped her career.
Ariana Tadler:
Right around the time that I was up for partner, I was working on a case, class action, securities fraud class action against a company that was in the tech space. And so that was one of the first cases where data was really going to matter. And it wasn't just data from a spreadsheet or something. I mean, you can understand why that would be relevant. This was more that we were dealing with work papers, accounting work papers, and historically accounting work papers had been produced in paper form.
However, I was fully aware that the way in which businesses, big business was moving, obviously computers were prevalent, software was prevalent. And I started realizing, well, nobody's handwriting work papers anymore. They're inputting information. And when we first got the work papers, it became apparent that we didn't get the notes. And the notes, at first when we were having this conversation with people, they're like, "What do you mean? The handwritten notes?" I said, "No, no, no. They're putting their notes into the software. It's there. They're just not producing it." And so then that led to, we want to see this information natively, or at least you have to show us all the cells, et cetera.
And then fast-forward, that led me to my next really most significant case, a case that really is an anchor in my career, which was the IPO securities litigation before Judge Shira Scheindlin, who she herself was the judge in the Zubulake cases, who issued some of the most important early decisions about eDiscovery. And so in that case, we had 55 investment banks, we had 309 corporate issuers. Many of them were in the tech space. And so we knew there was going to be a lot of information, emails, messaging, including proprietary messaging boards because again, these were securities fraud cases, data that was also being compiled about trading. And I didn't know everything.
There was, and still is a male lawyer. His name is Dave Buchanan. He's a phenomenal trial lawyer. He had had some experience with some of this. And together we were tasked with running the discovery program and specifically to figure out a plan as to how are we going to deal with all of these parties who have different data, they're distinct entities. And we came up with a questionnaire, and I always give Dave credit because he was so generous in teaching me as we were going. And then I took that and really morphed it into something bigger. So that is what led to the Jumpstart Outline that was published by the Sedona Conference initially. It's actually now being revised again. I was just asked to be part of a team to revise it for its fourth edition. So I'm super excited.
And as this was all happening, I started seeing, oh my gosh, there's this opportunity given that we were at this large firm to think about how do we bring certain resources in-house. Paul walked into my life and became the chief discovery officer at my prior firm. And ultimately, we built out a practice of not only lawyers who were trained, many of them trained by me, and then over time utilizing some of the resources out there, boot camps, et cetera. And then Paul was saying to me, "Well, we can build out technologists within the firm also." We brought certain platforms in-house so that other firms wanted to work with us in those cases, and we got to manage discovery. And then Paul was the one who said, "Hey, there are firms out there that we just did a case with. They're doing other cases. Maybe they would be interested in our still hosting their data or giving them guidance." And so we built that out further and it became something that we were able to monetize. We were also able to become leading authorities in the space.
And then ultimately in 2015, we took that business, pushed it out, created Meta-e Discovery, which from 2015 through 2022, 2023 was an independent data hosting management and consulting services company doing eDiscovery work for firms and clients across the nation. And now Meta-e is part of the Repario suite.
Mind you, where did all of this interest in eDiscovery start? I gave you the examples of the cases. Well, also, I had a partner at the firm who was a former magistrate judge who said to me, "The Federal Civil Rules Advisory Committee is beginning to really look at electronic discovery. You seem to be a person who's interested in this. Maybe you should give a look and see what they're doing." And it was with that in those first few years of the 2000s that I really started paying attention, and I started going to the Federal Civil Rules Advisory Committee meetings. They have two a year, as well as the standing committee meetings. And there was a set of discovery rules. Most people don't know, even though rules take effect on a particular date, the process for them to even start and get on the books is several years. And so 2003, 2004, I was already going to meetings.
And so then fast-forward, I kept going to the meetings. I actually, for the 2006 rules, wrote a letter and shared it with members of the bar and said, "I'm putting this in. If you think that this is right, might you send a similar letter or you can just sign on to my letter." 2006 rules become effective. Now, of course, ESI and all the solutions are evolving very, very quickly. And so I'd keep going to the meetings, I keep reading the agenda books.
And fast-forward, it turns out I was asked by Chief Justice Roberts to serve on the Federal Civil Rules Advisory Committee. And it's amazing that we're having this conversation because just two weeks ago, I went to my last meeting. I have served for seven years. Usually you're appointed for a three-year term. Hopefully you're renewed for a three-year term, and then sometimes by special appointment you get an extra year. And I was given the extra year. And I have said to everybody, it really is one of the most significant things that I've ever done in my career. I'm so humbled by the invitation and the opportunity have worked with these amazing judges and lawyers and academics to really continue to refine civil procedure in our nation because our legal system is an anchor of our nation's democracy. We need it to work the way we need ut to work. Lots of other countries don't like our legal system. Our legal system, however, was developed for our country in terms of how we believe the system should work.
Sonya Palmer:
I don't even know how to follow up on that. What an incredible trajectory. That is absolutely fantastic. Congratulations on, yeah, this is obviously a part of your legacy. It's super, super important.
Ariana Tadler:
Thank you.
Sonya Palmer:
Where do you see this going? What's next? What does the future of eDiscovery look like?
Ariana Tadler:
Oh, yes. Well, so obviously AI is coming down the pike. I'll come right back to that in a minute. I want to encourage your listeners and your viewers about the rules process. The rules process is public. The agenda books are posted on the US court's website. Anybody can pull them down and read them. And if you'd like to go to a meeting, you just have to ask permission and you can go if you get permission. I've never heard of anybody not being granted permission. And I keep saying to firms, big, small, "If you have a young leader who's growing, why don't you encourage them to go? Give them an opportunity to learn and be in a space with these smart minds and important people who are impacting civil practice?" What a great opportunity to develops skills for business development, also intellectual thinking, et cetera. So where is eDiscovery going?
AI for sure is having a huge impact. AI tools, you know this, were already playing a role in the background when we were talking about back in the day, predictive coding and technology assisted review, which is also known as TAR. This is artificial intelligence, slowly but surely. Now it's going to a whole other level and it will absolutely accelerate and give certain greater efficiencies in discovery if, big capital if, it is managed correctly, because there is the risk that there are what we call hallucinations, the creation of things that are really non-existent. And that could create complete chaos and havoc. And we've seen it less so in the per se eDiscovery rule. We've seen it in the practice of law where people are using AI for a whole variety of reasons, including to write a brief or to find cases or to write a letter. And it turns out that some of the source material is non-existent or has been actually manipulated in a way to reduce, if not obliterate, its accuracy and adequacy.
So one of the things that I keep saying to lawyers is, "Be smart. Be smart. Why are you using these tools? What input are you putting?" So when we use AI, we talk about the prompt. What is the prompt that you're asking it to solve for? Make sure you're not putting work product or attorney-client privileged information in there because AI is out there scraping. Well, once you've put your prompt in, if it includes proprietary information, that information now goes into the world for further scraping. So I think it's an exciting time. I think we're going to see people who maybe were not data people. I know of one lawyer in particular. She's a phenomenal employment lawyer, top-notch, and she decided that she was going to learn and really become an authority on AI, and you wouldn't have naturally thought of that for somebody who was doing what she was doing. She's very successful. She's a top business developer as well as a lawyer and practicing and serving her clients. And still, she saw this as an opportunity and it reminds me of why did I want to get involved with eDiscovery?
And so I think this is a moment in time where AI is not purely for junior people because maybe they've been exposed to it more. It's an opportunity for anybody who's interested and wants to do the deep dive. And if you feel stuck in your practice, this could be the pivotal moment for you. You do the deep dive, you go to conferences, you do your reading, you do your research, and suddenly you too could be writing for the National Law Journal or your local law journal or in a magazine, and people now start coming to you and you've just created a whole new practice group. So it's going to impact eDiscovery for efficiency and efficacy. It's also going to impact the practice of law and give people new opportunities if they see them and they take them.
Sonya Palmer:
100%. I completely agree with you, especially for women lawyers. AI, Sarah Williams, who was our first guest on this podcast, talked about how social media was the great equalizer. And I think that about AI. For women who are wanting to own their own firms, start their own firms, AI can be their partner, they are their assistant, they can help with marketing, they can help with all types of different things. And if you grab that and harness it, it can change everything. And I do completely agree, there's so much conversation around is AI good or AI bad? And I don't think enough is being said about how do we harness it for the good of humanity? And then how do we protect consumers from it? Because it's happening with or without us. So how do we divide and conquer those two things that could cause harm?
Ariana Tadler:
That's right. That's right. And you made a very salient point here, which is AI is here. It's not going away. Just like social media is not going away. Harness it, be responsible about it, see the opportunity. And sure, there are going to be negative aspects of it. Make sure you know how to manage and control those. And then how do you see the opportunity as a growth opportunity for yourself and for the world in which you're living? How do you make it better?
Sonya Palmer:
Exactly. You mentioned your new business and you also mentioned young leaders, which I can tell you are passionate about. Can you tell us about the book you're writing for the 18 to 35 year olds and how they can find their purpose?
Ariana Tadler:
Sure. So one of the ... Two things have happened. So we have people principally between the ages of 18 to 35, who for the most part have grown up, unlike somebody like myself who have grown up with technology in their lives, including devices, technology software solutions, social media, et cetera. And sure there are families who have limited access for some period of time. And yet still, unlike somebody like myself given my age and my sort of demographic, young people, young professionals, junior professionals in these categories have had all of this happening in their life. So I call it getting lost in the haze of the blue light. There's just so much happening. People feel like pinballs in their lives. Only they're not the controller, but they, they can be the controller. So you've got this loss of being in this blue light, and then you also have the fact that sadly, the pandemic really messed all of us up in some way, one way or the other, everybody's been affected.
People who had a sense of control and structure in their lives lost it. I lost it. That's what actually ended up driving me to this new place was realizing that certain hacks that I had, I stopped using and I couldn't figure out why. And I finally, after doing a lot of deep diving, realized, "Oh, I too am at risk of being that pinball." And so ultimately I realized we need some anchors, we need people to rest and get solid rest. And the amount of rest and sleep that you might need is different perhaps than what I might need. Take that as an anchor and I have a formula. You input your data points. You're going to input what is the amount of sleep that you really need, and you're going to commit to that.
And then you're also going to say, "Okay, if I'm a person in school, I'm a student. I know it takes me this number of hours per day for purposes of going to class, doing my homework, and whatever else." Maybe there are some extracurriculars you're involved in or work making sure that you are, if you're a nine to fiver, okay, you're going to put those hours in. And then whatever the output that's left, we're going to curate. What are you doing with that balance during the week as well as on the weekend? In all likelihood, on the weekend, you're going to have many more hours available to you to curate. And those balanced hours are not exclusively for leisure. That's an old school thinking based upon the three eights. They are for you to live an effective, productive, abundant life. And what that means is when you're not sleeping and you're not working or going to school, you have other responsibilities, personal hygiene, exercise, eating responsibly.
In our country here in the United States, we know that people are not really paying attention to what they're putting in their bodies and how they're getting movement. Are they moving enough? We started this conversation today talking about remote working. People are more sedentary than ever. No good. And that comes back to how do you get yourself into a peak state? You've got to get up. You've got to be physical. And so putting into this formula, okay, you also might have responsibilities with your family, whatever those might be. Maybe you have a dog. The dog needs to be fed and walked and groomed. You put all of this in and there still is going to be great time for you to live what I call your joy factor. And it hadn't even dawned on me, why has joy factor been a hashtag I've used for so long? I've been using it for years. It came to me. I started promoting it.
And then one day I realized my middle name is Joyce. Crazy. Joy factor's right there. That's really what it's about. I've just started the process of writing the book. I'm in the middle of TEDx training with the hope of landing a TEDx Talk and starting to really promote this concept. And I love public speaking. I've been a keynote for quite a number of organizations, especially women in Tech and Tech Up For Women. There's a great conference that's put on every year, and I've been a keynote for them multiple years in a row.
And regardless of the topic that I speak on, I always make sure that I close with this concept. It's so important that when we end our day, we feel good about the day that we lived, satisfied, validated. Because it's not only about the, what did I accomplish today? It's that sense of endorphins for tomorrow and the next day and the next day. And so it ends up building on a sense of happiness and satisfaction daily, weekly, monthly, annually, and where you start actually being very capable of envisioning your life in periods of time. What are your goals and aspirations for this week, for this month, for three months, for next year? And do you have a five-year plan?
Sonya Palmer:
Technology isn't just a tool, it's an equalizer. Whether it's eDiscovery or AI, these innovations can propel your career in ways you might never expect. Own your expertise with confidence. When you walk into a room, know that you belong there and you're ready to lead and never stop learning. Our profession is constantly evolving, and your ability to grow with it will set you apart. From all of us here at LawHer, keep pushing those boundaries, keep innovating, and above all, keep owning your place in the legal world. If you found this content insightful, inspiring, or it just made you smile, please share this episode with the trail blazer in your life. For more about Ariana, check out our show notes. And while you're there, please leave us a review or a five-star rating. It really helps others discover the show. And I will see you next week on LawHer, where we'll shed light on how another of the brightest and boldest women in the legal industry climbed to the top of her field. Until next time, stay inspired, stay empowered, and keep making waves in the legal industry. You've got this.
