JESSICA GIVENS:
Building trust with a family is part of how to be successful because these aren't easy conversations you have to have.
SONYA PALMER:
To humanize a connection with your client, they have to trust you.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Then they know that you have their best interest in mind and that you're willing to explain every step of the process. That's how you make it less of a weird transaction, and more of one person helping another person.
SONYA PALMER:
In 2021 women made up over half of all summer associates for the fourth year in a row. Yet equity partners and multi-tier law firms continue to be disproportionately white men. Only 22% of equity partners are women. We would like to see that change. Hello and welcome to LawHer, the show where we celebrate the trailblazing attorneys and entrepreneurs who are changing the game for women in the legal field. Be inspired by their stories, learn from their mistakes, build community, and look forward to the future they're helping build for the next generation of women in law. I am Sonya Palmer, your host and VP of Operations at Rankings, the SEO agency of Choice for personal injury lawyers. This is LawHer. Jessica Givens has spent the last six years at the illustrious Cochran firm and is passionate about complex litigation and mass torts. She has been awarded Top 10 Under 40 in 2022 by the National Academy of Personal Injury Attorneys. She has also received the Hugo L Black Scholar Award and George Peach Taylor Award for trial advocacy. Today she explains how to maintain a sense of community, even if the firm is 42 offices strong, why representation is critical to the advancement of women in the legal industry, and how one of the most useful and powerful tools at her disposal is one we all possess, delegation. Let's dive in.
JESSICA GIVENS:
So when I started my practice, I actually worked for a law firm that represented large irresponsible corporations. Not always, it's a little more gray than that, but yeah, when I started, I did civil defense work and I did, at that time, I represented pharmaceutical companies and huge businesses, and I quickly realized after working there a couple of years, that despite my colleagues being wonderful, it just wasn't my calling.
SONYA PALMER:
And then how did you get to The Cochran Firm?
JESSICA GIVENS:
My husband is a lawyer.
SONYA PALMER:
Oh.
JESSICA GIVENS:
And my husband started out on the plaintiff's side and has been doing that from the get-go, and he would always tell me about it, and tell me what his day was like and who he was representing, and how that made him feel, what impact he was able to have. I'm sure it was just the long con because now we obviously work together, and so I joined him at The Cochran Firm. But it wasn't just ... I think that if it had just been John, my husband, it would've been tougher, but I knew one of his partners, Angie Mason, who's at our firm here in Dothan, and she is so smart, a wonderful litigator, extremely talented writer, a great mentor, is how I saw it. And that has been exactly the way it went. I came to Dothan and started working with Angie as my main partner I worked with, and we've been rolling ever since.
SONYA PALMER:
You've been going. So you started as a biochem major at Samford University. How did you transition from a STEM degree to law?
JESSICA GIVENS:
So the thing about learning for me, I did always like the science and math lane, so I think that I and others assumed I would go to medical school or become an orthodontist or do something like that. What I like most about coming to work every day and how I ended up here as opposed to where most people, including myself, thought I'd end up, is I like learning and always have. I every subject. I love school, I love homework, I love it all. So being a lawyer, every case is different. You deal with experts, you have to learn their craft, they have to be able to explain it to you, and you have to be able to then relay that to a jury, and I feel like one of my biggest strengths is I don't think of myself as some genius or something. I just am really good at breaking complicated things down and making them simple for my brain. And I feel like most people's brains appreciate that kind of ... it's not dumbing it down, it's just taking away all the extra stuff, and getting to the point. So I like that in a legal career, you still deal with science, you still have to learn about how drugs work, and you have to learn about how products mechanically work, and how things go wrong. You have to be able to understand that. So it actually makes a lot of sense to have a STEM background and go into the field of law, but I think that a lot of people don't necessarily see it that way, but they should.
SONYA PALMER:
No, I absolutely agree. When you think about it, science is built on laws, rules, and very strict things there is no gray. It's black or white. So I actually think that that makes sense. Would you say that learning, being able to learn, is part of why you picked being a lawyer?
JESSICA GIVENS:
Yes.
SONYA PALMER:
Okay.
JESSICA GIVENS:
And it is one of the things that keeps me here, as opposed to doing something else.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes, yes. And then you mentioned Angie as a mentor to you now. As you were going through school, going through that start of your career, did you have any other mentors that stand out to you?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I feel like the biggest and best support system that I had throughout law school, was the friends that I made in law school. So going from somewhere like Samford, which ... that's a whole other subject ... but going from somewhere that was conservative-minded/ a lot of the women who I went to school with legitimately did not care about having a career whenever they were done with college, which-
SONYA PALMER:
Wow.
JESSICA GIVENS:
... boggles the mind.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah.
JESSICA GIVENS:
But it was true. All of these women who I was around, they were like, "Yeah, well I don't know. I don't really want to work," and I'm like, "Why are you here?"So then when I got to law school, all of the women that I met there were super career driven. I had some with political aspirations, and they're doing it. I had friends who knew exactly they wanted to be corporate lawyers, they wanted to be up in the contracts, and they're doing it. So I think that the biggest support system and mentors, were the people around me, like-minded, driven people, who had goals like I had.
SONYA PALMER:
Absolutely. Peers are an invaluable support system because you're learning alongside one another, so that makes perfect sense. The Cochran Firm has established itself as the country's premier victim's advocate law firm. How does your role maintain that title?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I think that our focus is not just on the things that we do all the time and we're great at, but we're not afraid to talk to different types of victims, explore areas of law and come up with unique legal theories, to try to get those people relief, to try to bring justice to their situation. One example. I've handled a lot of dead body cases, which is kind of an odd area of law, but when people have a family member who has passed away tragically and then in the aftermath of all that, they are treated in such a terrible manner, in a way that's completely unjustifiable, it's wrong, by either funeral homes or people involved in the investigation. So that's one area where I didn't see that one coming, but once you talk to families who've been through it, you start to realize that they have been impacted in a way that's completely preventable,
SONYA PALMER:
The level of notoriety that The Cochran Firm enjoys has been hard-earned. For female attorneys who are just starting out or are aiming for a level of success like yours, what are some critical elements that female attorneys should take?
JESSICA GIVENS:
So obviously, females have a unique kind of challenge when you're starting out because right at the time when you feel like your career is taking off or should take off, or you should be devoted to it and really deep in it, that's when you are expected sometimes to have a baby or start a family and have most of the weight of all that on your shoulders. While some people don't want to take that path at all, it makes it somewhat easier, but for people like me, who actually I did want that. It wasn't my lifelong dream, and if I could have gotten out of birth, I would've signed up for that situation. But what I will say is, when I got to that point, when I first started out and I knew that my job, while wonderful wasn't my path, I took the risk and made a move. And I think that sometimes as women, because we're so relied upon, it's hard to take those risks for ourselves, to evaluate whether the path we're on is the right one, and to have the guts to be like, "You know what? This isn't it, and I can do what I aim to do, and in the long run, even though it's scary right now, even though I'm cutting my salary big time, at the end of the day, got to do what makes sense for me, and what's sustainable," because I saw that path not being sustainable for me. So I would advise people who are just starting out, to really think about that, and then when you're in it, know that it's going to be different than what you thought, and it's okay to change.
SONYA PALMER:
Set expectations for yourself, just that things will be flexible. I love the way that you phrased that because I do think that sometimes there's a stereotype around women that we're risk-averse. So what you said about, we are typically relied upon, and that's very true when you're taking risks, not usually the only people affected by those. So it makes sense that there are a lot of calculations that go into that, but excellent advice, I think, particularly for women who are as intelligent and driven to become an attorney, to then take that and use it in their career. We talk a lot about personal branding on this podcast. Do you have a personal brand, and if so, how would you describe it?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I feel like there are two parts to being a lawyer. On the one hand, you've got your work in the courtroom. I'm serious, I'm prepared, I'm going to be the one who's read all the cases, I'm going to have notes, I'm prepared. I think that that is important to me, and I want judges to see me that way. I want my clients to see me that way. But on the flip side, when I am dealing with clients or other lawyers in networking, I hope that they see me as someone who is funny. That's really important to me. I don't know why. I just want to ... if I can bring people some joy, if that's how I can connect with people, that's when I'm happiest, and I also want to be seen as compassionate, as someone who truly cares about her clients and about other people. Really just generally a compassionate person.
SONYA PALMER:
I just saw some statistics, it was from a study, I don't know the name of it, but it was what people look for in leadership and in management, and the number one thing was a sense of humor, so I think that-
JESSICA GIVENS:
How do you get through the day-
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah.
JESSICA GIVENS:
... without laughing about something. That is the thing. The more years that pass, the more I realize, whether I feel like I've done ... especially in social situations ... if I feel like, "Yeah, that was good." I'm like, "Were people laughing? Yes? Jessica's still got it."
SONYA PALMER:
Got it. Yeah, I think it's completely undervalued. It's something I look for. I'm looking for an opportunity for a joke at all times, so I think it's very undervalued in a way.
JESSICA GIVENS:
[inaudible 00:13:56].
SONYA PALMER:
I'd like to talk about your position in this multi-tier firm, a firm that has 42 locations, that's insane, and over a hundred attorneys. Where do you fit into all of this? Are you the only one out of the Dothan location?
JESSICA GIVENS:
So we have seven attorneys here in the Dothan office, including my husband, and including my father-in-law, and my brother-in-law. So we have seven here, and essentially, we go to a lot of conferences where we have Cochran national meetings, where all the lawyers get together, we talk about what cases we're working on, and we use each other as resources, not just even the lawyers. Today we needed to find ... one of our clients lives in Virginia, and we the phone number's not working anymore, so we emailed the DC office, and someone up there was like, "I know who you can use to find them, blah, blah blah."So anyway, it's a great place to be, because you have the resource of all these lawyers across the country if you need to be admitted into a certain jurisdiction and you need a local lawyer. Well, we got lawyers everywhere, so-
SONYA PALMER:
Nice. Yes.
JESSICA GIVENS:
So we are one piece, but as odd as it sounds, the Dothan, Alabama Cochran office is really a major player in all these firms across the nation, and it's where the national administration is located, so this is kind of the hub of Cochran.
SONYA PALMER:
Big deal. Yeah, big deal. Wow.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Who knew?
SONYA PALMER:
That's good. Seems like a great place to have a law firm.
JESSICA GIVENS:
It's lovely. Dothan, I grew up here, said I wasn't going to move back, and then, you know how life does, you're like, "Oh, I actually do love it there." We're an hour from the beach, and-
SONYA PALMER:
Oh, that's perfect.
JESSICA GIVENS:
... and three hours from Atlanta, and anyway, it's just easy and maintains that smaller town, slower pace, which again was how I saw this being a long term, how I saw it being sustainable for me.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, that's a good point. Especially raising a family, to be able to have a big firm that you can advance with, but not in a major metro. That doesn't happen very often, so it's a unique thing. So what is your caseload like?
JESSICA GIVENS:
So right now about half of my cases are individual incidents with people who've been injured or wrongful death or that kind of thing, and then the other half right now is mass tort work, like the 3M earplug litigation. We're involved in that. A couple of our cases are gearing up to be tried. And then we also are involved in opioid litigation. We actually, along with others, represent the state of Nevada, which ... long story there. So I would say it's about 50/50 doing mass tort work, which is those cases that involve a bunch of people, versus the cases where I'm talking to the client every week, and discussing updates in their individual case.
SONYA PALMER:
And you like that versatility?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I do, but I do love ... mass torts is not ... I don't like it as much as the other. I like the firms I get to work with. There are benefits to it, but you cannot beat helping a family. You just can't beat it.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, I see it. I get it. So you talked about how you have a network within all of your firms, and how you can utilize and help each other. How do you maintain that sense of community? Do you receive mentorship? Do you offer it? What is that like?
JESSICA GIVENS:
When we all get together, it's clear that the goal is to make those connections, but I will say in our firm, that's important to people anyway. When I joined the firm, people would come up to me and tell me how excited they were, "Reach out to me if you need anything." We have some really, really accomplished female attorneys in our firm, who would not hesitate to give me help. And then we also ... and have tried to get me to do more stuff like, "Get in leadership early, get in there, and make your name known, and establish yourself and do it now. Don't wait as I did."So I'm trying to heed their advice, but yeah, there are days where the puppies and the kids get out of control, and I think, "More stuff?" But I know that it's worthwhile at the end of the day to do it, and start as soon as possible.
SONYA PALMER:
And then, how do you connect with potential clients? Such a big firm, so many locations, big reputation, how do you humanize that, when you have such an extensive reach?
JESSICA GIVENS:
We've got this massive call center, and we've got these cases that come from all over, and generally, some of our cases are localized to our area, and it's easy to just pick up the phone and talk to people and let them know that I'm going to be their attorney.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes.
JESSICA GIVENS:
And they can call me, and introduce myself, meet with them, set up an appointment where I can see them in person, so they know who is handling their case. But then in cases that end up through referrals or whatever, from all over the US, I think that that's kind of the same thing. You just have to connect, like you said, on a human level, and let them know who you are. Let them know if they've lost a child, you have children, you cry with them, and it's not like you're trying to, it's just when you hear someone's story, and you work for that family, if you have any empathy at all, there's just no way not to get connected to that. And I feel like building trust with a family is part of how to be successful, because these aren't easy conversations you have to have. This is not fun, and so if they trust you and they know that you have their best interest in mind, and you're willing to explain every step of the process, that's how you make it less of a weird transaction, and more of a one-person helping another person.
SONYA PALMER:
Is there a standout case that you can share with us that you're proud of?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I'm currently working on a very, very sad, but I hope impactful case, where an infant, through what we allege as medical negligence, died during a diagnostic procedure, and it's still in litigation, so we're still rolling, so I can't really say that I am proud yet, but what I will say is I'm proud to be working for this wonderful family, and I'm so proud that my job gives me the opportunity to make it imperative that a hospital, a doctor, whoever changes the way they work, to prevent things like this from happening because it was preventable. It's right in front of me too. That's what I was working on before I talked to you. And then, I have again, the cases that I'm working on for families who've suffered after they lost a loved one, and then their bodies were mistreated after the fact. That's rewarding to me because I feel like a lot of people don't get it, and then I'm able to explain what the family went through and what went wrong, and what happened, and people find that compassion where before they were like, "Why? People, if they're dead, they're dead," but then once you actually tell them the story, they're like, "Okay, oh I get it. This is bad and it should never happen."
SONYA PALMER:
Yes, exactly. I love that you picked your current case. It is obvious that Jessica's passion has helped her stay in the legal field, but passion can only get you so far. I wanted to hear her take on why so few women end up at the managing partner level in multi-tier firms.
JESSICA GIVENS:
I'm hopeful that it's shifting, and boy it should, because I tell you, I'm on a lot of boards and stuff, and not that men can't be super-effective at getting stuff done, but when you put a woman in charge, it just sometimes seems that things get accomplished more quickly on a better timeline, and there's less chit chat. For as much as women get a reputation for chatting with their friends, every board meeting I go to, I'm like, "Dude, why are you talking right now? That guy just said that. You're repeating the same ... this is totally wasting my time."So I think that in the legal industry, I feel like, with my law school class it was 50/50, and so it's getting better and better, and more and more women are coming into these roles, but it has been kind of like an old boys club. I still feel it when I go into the courtroom and there's a male judge and his frat bro is on the defense side, and they're finger-gunning each other. There is still that issue that women are going to have to deal with. It's a little bit of a ... for years and years it was a man's profession, and so I think that breaking that barrier has been a little bit difficult, but I do think it's changing. And Angie's our managing partner here in Dothan, and I think everybody's happy about that, so I think it's just old biases have a hard time dying, but I'm hopeful we're getting there.
SONYA PALMER:
I think you're right. I do think it's changing for the better, and I love what you said because a lot of times the feedback on that is that women tend to be able to relate to the clients a little bit better. They can tap into those emotions, particularly when children are involved and things like that, but you're right, women get shit done. They'll roll their sleeves up and just get it done. Let's go.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Yeah.
SONYA PALMER:
So I think that's sometimes undervalued. People don't always point that out, but you're right. If you want something done, and-
JESSICA GIVENS:
And we're list people. I can-
SONYA PALMER:
Yes.
JESSICA GIVENS:
... tear up a list.
SONYA PALMER:
Oh yeah.
JESSICA GIVENS:
We want to accomplish these things. If I'm in charge of something, and I have some type of meeting, I'm not a meeting for the sake of a meeting the person.
SONYA PALMER:
No.
JESSICA GIVENS:
So if we got some stuff we're going to accomplish, by the next time, if we haven't crossed off most of those things, I'm going to be like, "What are we doing? We got to do something. We got to accomplish more."So I think that it's going to be, you will probably find, hopefully in the next ... I don't know, I don't know how long, 15 years from now ... that there are a lot of women in positions of power in this industry because you really do need that.
SONYA PALMER:
I agree. In addition to the list, a very important tool, are there any other tools that make your life easier as an attorney?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I think just acknowledging that ... so I work too, so I'm going to pay for someone to clean my house, and I'm going to pay for someone to do my yard. I'm not afraid to figure out what it makes sense to delegate, and that means at home in my personal life, that I have had ... not the best at delegating at work. Could get better at that. But I think it's really the most helpful tools are the things that make my daily life and home life somewhat easier and less hectic, because then I get to focus on the things that matter when I get home, and I get to focus on my job and accomplishing the tasks I have set out for the day at work. I have decided that if I'm going to be a lawyer and have a career, then that means that I get to farm out some stuff. You really can't do it all, so find out the things that you enjoy doing and figure out a way to budget or whatever makes sense so that the extra stuff gets handled.
SONYA PALMER:
I agree completely. Sometimes it's what you don't have to deal with-
JESSICA GIVENS:
Yes.
SONYA PALMER:
... that makes your life easier.
JESSICA GIVENS:
That's how it is for me.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes.
JESSICA GIVENS:
The less on my plate is the best thing I can think of.
SONYA PALMER:
Yes. So going back to women in law, the more examples of female lawyers that come to the surface, the better of the industry is as a whole. Why do you see representation as important?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I think that part of it is just dispelling the ingrained biases or presumptions that people have when they see a prominent female lawyer, and when they start to see how different those female lawyers are ... they're not all like I'm the aggressive bulldog lawyer. You have the full range, just like with men of, you've got some attorneys who are seen as they're serious, they're tough, they mean business and others who are compassionate and so effective, and like a surgeon getting in there and getting stuff done. So I think the more women you see, and the diversity of those people who rise to the top, it encourages those coming through law school, or people in their firm who are like, "Can I really continue to do this? How do I do it?" Well, you start to look at people who explain, maybe they took a few years off when they had kids, maybe they decided that their husband stays at home, whatever arrangement, however it's set up if you see more representation of that, and more creative solutions to making it work for you, I think that it's better for those jumping in so that they don't give up. They get to say, "Oh well, here's how they fixed that. Here's what they did to make their life easier." I think that that's crucial to keep women in here and not leave.
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah, super-smart to defy the stereotype, because the stereotype was that all lawyers were men, and now there's a stereotype attached to a female lawyer, like you said, very driven, very aggressive. To defy both, you can be soft or technical, not necessarily aggressive, and there's room for all of those people within this profession and value. Super smart.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Absolutely.
SONYA PALMER:
Super smart.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Absolutely.
SONYA PALMER:
What can women lawyers do to increase their visibility? How do you get out in front of people?
JESSICA GIVENS:
So the first thing I'd say about it is, don't be afraid to ask. There are all these conferences where people are up there talking about whatever their specialty of law is, talking about how you can improve, and I think what a lot of people don't realize is if there's a conference and you say, "I'd like to speak on this. I had a case where this happened, this would be really helpful. Can I come talk? Can I come present? Can I present for this organization? Can I try to get a leadership role in this?"People are excited about that, and so I think that if you search out for conferences, it could be your local bar, or it could be statewide organizations or associations for justice. The defense lawyers have their own thing, I forgot DF something but seeking leadership positions, which is really, as far as a time constraint, it's not that big of an ask, and speaking at conferences and just getting your name and your firm's name out there, is going to be a huge benefit, because people will start to have conversations with you. You'll meet people who are doing kind of the same things, and it creates ... it's a whole separate network that's very good for females.
SONYA PALMER:
I think a lot of female attorneys, wisely so, have turned towards social media.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Yes.
SONYA PALMER:
Right? But you are reminding me there is a more traditional route to that, like you said, starting locally, building that there, creating that network, maybe before you go digital, before you have all of your emphasis there, and I like that.
JESSICA GIVENS:
Both are even better.
SONYA PALMER:
Powerful.
JESSICA GIVENS:
I do think that I agree, social media is clearly the ... TikTok, all of that ... if you want to get your name out there, that's a great way to do it. But also focus on the community of attorneys. So you've got a lot of old white dudes who still hold the reins in a lot of places, and if they ... say you have a great social media following and you present at a conference where they're like, "Well, she was impressive, and she knows what she's talking about, and gosh, we need diversity."I think that if you can attack it from both sides if you can go to the old school and do the new, who can stop you?
SONYA PALMER:
Yeah. So you talked previously about going into a courtroom, good old boys club, and the finger guns. When you encounter stereotypes, or maybe even negative assumptions, how do you move beyond them?
JESSICA GIVENS:
Well, some days I don't really well. They tick me off. On other days, when I'm more levelheaded and I've had a good meal under my belt, I think that how I've operated my whole life has been, you do the work and you put in the work, and true, there are some things that are just going to be roadblocks no matter how hard you work, no matter how correct you are on a theory of law, you still got a judge who can say, "Your case is out. I don't like it. I don't think you've got a case here."But, just like I've always done if I continue to put in the work, if I continue to be prepared, and to know what the heck I'm talking about, and to try to be creative where I can, then in the aggregate, I'm going to get one step closer to where I want to be, and at some point, the other people who are just relying on stereotypes, or old-school connections, or, "My daddy was a judge," whatever. At some point, that's not going to take them any farther than they're at right now. But if I keep trying to evolve and do better and learn more and be more prepared, then that's going to make the difference. I know it will. It always has. You just have to put in the work.
SONYA PALMER:
A hundred percent. A lot of what happens to female lawyers is out of your control, right?
JESSICA GIVENS:
Yeah.
SONYA PALMER:
Stereotypes, all of the things you just described, but being able to work hard, focus completely, within your control, so I like that. Accountability, let me do what I can do. What are your ambitions for the future?
JESSICA GIVENS:
I just really want to continue to positively impact people's lives in a way that matters, and I don't know if that's going to look like some huge case where tons of people are involved and I can help a bunch of people at once. I don't know if that just means year after year helping five families, either in my community or outside of it, and making an impact in that, I guess, smaller way. I don't know. I honestly don't know what the future will hold in terms of that. I think that probably it's something that my husband and I are going to do together. I think I see myself working with him as a trial team in the future, and honestly part of that is my way of combating the stereotypes and getting out there more. So John is a deeply empathetic, kind person. He's an excellent trial lawyer, and he doesn't have a lot of the stereotypes put on him maybe that I do. He would recognize I have lots of different strengths to bring to the table, that could help on whatever case we may be working on together, and I think that that's not using him, but working with him and being a team with him, will allow other women attorneys to see, you can achieve whatever you want to, and also do it in a way where skirting around some of those bad things that may not have completely dissolved yet. Hopefully, I can help to dissolve them in my wake, but right now, they're still there, and so working with a guy, I think, is a good way into having people see like, "Okay, she's not a B word. She seems all right. Okay. He likes her, so I don't know."It's an interesting way to try to work with the stereotypes that I know I'm going to be dealing with, and minimize them to the extent I can for the benefit of clients, because I do think that if you take those away, plus you get a woman's compassion, especially in terms of damages, because I think sometimes-
SONYA PALMER:
Oh yeah.
JESSICA GIVENS:
... men are not necessarily as great at talking about ... all the time, john will tell me about a case, and he'll be like, "But here are the damages," and it's a woman who has had some medical issue, and he'll kind of describe she can't really exercise and her voice sounds different, and he is like ... I can tell while he is talking about it, he doesn't get it. And I'm like, "No, this is why it matters," and so I get all fired up about it, and I feel like women can connect with people in that way, because he's like, "Oh, okay, okay, well good. Okay, I see that."So having his ability to get us in with a jury from the get-go, and then my ability to bring it home, I see doing that together in the future.
SONYA PALMER:
All right. What do you do when you need to decompress or take some time for yourself? Do you have any rituals or routines?
JESSICA GIVENS:
Just really snuggle my dogs so hard.
SONYA PALMER:
Puppies.
JESSICA GIVENS:
I do. I walk my dogs every morning. I love my animals, just because I found that, I obviously love my kids too, but they're not quite as relaxing as snuggling a fluffy stuffed animal-looking puppy. So I feel like the biggest stress reliever, although sometimes stress-inducing, but most stress reliever is my freaking dogs. They're like true emotional support animals. I can cry into them. They're fluffy. I don't know how else ... that's like, I just love my dogs, okay?
SONYA PALMER:
I don't think you need to explain it beyond that.
JESSICA GIVENS:
But I also, I do have to stay active or I'll go bananas. So I run, when forced by my friend with long legs, and I play tennis, and go to workout classes, and try to stay super active because that burns off all the pent-up energy.
SONYA PALMER:
As more women enter the legal field, representation helps other women know that they too can accomplish their goals. To increase your visibility, social media is not the only answer. Ask to speak at conferences, and take up leadership positions, build your reputation in your local community. A big thank you to Jessica for sharing her story and unbelievable insights with us today. You have been listening to Laher with me, Sonya Palmer. If you've found this content insightful, and inspiring, or it just made you smile, please share this episode with a trailblazer in your life. For more about Jessica Givens, check out our show notes, and while you're there, please leave us a review or a five-star rating. It really goes a long way for others to discover the show. And I will see you next week on LawHer when we'll shed light on how another of the brightest and boldest women in the legal industry climbed to the top of her field.
