77. John Jantsch, Duct Tape Marketing & Podcast Bookers Turning Customers into Partners

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John Jantsch has spent over 35 years teaching small and local business owners how to make effective marketing a core part of their business. His Duct Tape Marketing method, (now a book, a business, and a consulting network) breaks down how to systematize your advertising into tangible, manageable steps.

Duct Tape Marketing is also about creating trust and relationships with customers, and growing your business to meet their needs. To this end, John has also started Podcast Bookers, which allows business owners and entrepreneurs to guest on podcasts, raising their profile and establishing them as authorities in their field. John and I connected to discuss his philosophy on marketing, and the hidden value of being a podcast guest.

Transcript

John Jantsch

Our job is to start with the belief that 100% of our clients are going to turn into raving fans. And so if that’s, you know, if that’s supportive, you, we start with, what do we have to do?

Chris Dreyer

Most people think the goal of marketing is to get people to buy your product, but the relationship doesn’t have to end there. For good marketers, that’s only the beginning.

John Jantsch

That forces us to really focus as much energy on the customer experience as it does on getting the click or getting the email.

Chris Dreyer

You’re listening to the personal injury marketing mastermind, the show where elite personal injury attorneys and leading edge marketers give you exclusive access to grow strategies for your firm. John Jantsch has been getting people to rethink marketing for over 35 years through his company, Duct Tape Marketing and his best-selling book by the same name. John has trained thousands of small and local business owners on a practical approach to getting and keeping customers. He walked me through his marketing system and told me why being a podcast guest can be your new secret weapon. I’m your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. We help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings with search engine optimization. Being at the forefront of marketing is all about understanding people. So let’s get to know our guest. Here’s John Jantsch, founder and CEO of Duct Tape Marketing.

John Jantsch

I, I actually was very influenced by Michael Gerber’s work. Uh, and I’m, uh, I’m sure some of your listeners are familiar with the E Myth. Um, and I, uh, so much, uh, you know, again, this was before I’d really started Duct Tape Marketing. I actually, uh, licensed and became a certified E Myth consultant and the E Myth really kind of covers all areas of abuse. And so I actually started consulting, you know, using the E Myth system with a lot of businesses. And I found out, you know, that we couldn’t pass go because their marketing was so broken. That was the one that was, you know, was really the area that, that, you know, uh, tripped them up and. In in, in, you know, the, I think the E Myth was a great, great program, but marketing was probably the weakest part of that program, quite frankly. Um, and some of the digital stuff was just starting to come on and, and so that wasn’t addressed at all. And so I really give, uh, Gerber’s program a lot of credit for me, starting Duct Tape Marketing, because what I realized was yes, you could do. You know, pretty much every element of, of a business, you know, can be systemized. That was a big part of the E Myth. Um, but a lot of people couldn’t see marketing that way. That was the one area that just was this very gray, uh, kind of area. And so that’s really, what I set out to do was, was to systemize or create a marketing, uh, systematic approach to marketing. Where I could walk in and say, look, here’s what I’m going to do. Here’s what you’re going to do here are the results we hope to get. And by the way, here’s what it costs. Um, and that, uh, you know, essentially trying to turn this service into a product, uh, was kind of the genesis of that idea.

Chris Dreyer

That’s such a fantastic story. And I remember, I think it was in 2015, I was at one of those breaking points where I’m trying to do everything early on in my business. And I, I found the E Myth book and I read it and I’m like, it was just light bulb clicked and, and it really helped me, but I, I took it yet in the same way as what you’re saying, more of just processes and getting in that technician manager, entrepreneurial type state, the. You know, the mandatory that needed than the optional type of shifts. And as an owner, you know, um, you know, a lot of the underpinning of what you do is these marketing systems at Duct Tape Marketing. So for our audience that isn’t familiar, could explain some of those tenants and the philosophies of, uh, that you have at Duct Tape Marketing.

John Jantsch

For sure. So the, the idea of marketing as a system is probably the foundation of that is that, that strategy before tax. Uh, so many business owners and frankly, I think that’s why this appealed to a lot of business owners. Uh, so many business owners are really struggling today to buy marketing services because it’s gotten more complex. Everybody’s selling a piece of the puzzle, you know, everybody’s like, you need Facebook ads, you need SEO, you, whatever the flavor of the day, or frankly, whatever they’re selling, you know, is what the small business owner needed. And, and the idea that it wasn’t. Now built around or, or chosen around the idea of, you know, who’s our ideal client, what’s our offer that we can make to them or a core message. That’s so compelling that, that, you know, we’re going to stand out and differentiate herself. And that’s really where we start now. Some of the tactical things, you know, certainly come into play, of course, but, but what tactics and how we approach the tactics, maybe what platforms we’re even on are really driven by this, the strategy first and strategy foundation. And content has really, for us become kind of the voice of strategy. We still, a lot of people look at it as a tactic of that they have to do, because that’s what people do today, but it’s really the greatest tool that guides the customer journey, you know, built around a strategy. So, you know, those, just the idea of starting with a strategy and then integrating, you know, all of these various tactics, um, is kind of the approach that we’ve taken and kind of built my entire career.

Chris Dreyer

I love that there, there are so many channels popping up, whether it’s TikTok or, you know, Clubhouse, and you’ve got, you know, YouTube reels, it can be really enticing. Those shiny objects is popping around everywhere. But if you just try to, you know, I love Grant Cardone. I’m a big Grant Cardone, 10 X, you know, outworking everyone. But if the strategy is not there, you can really, um, just tread water and just not get anywhere.

John Jantsch

Yeah. And, and, you know, the, the, the problem is some of those folks that are preaching that stuff is, is they really are kind of dragging people into the next big thing that, uh, you know, that maybe they can master that works for them. But, you know, the, the thing that I see that, you know, for anybody that follows anybody that calls himself a guru is what they do works for them. And it’s probably not going to work for you in the same way. And it might not even make sense for you. And so, you know, you really got to figure out your own, you know, who you’re trying to serve, you know, who can you provide the most value to and build really all of your marketing around that or tracking those folks and not, you know, not, I mean, if you want to be the next influencer on Clubhouse, you know, God bless you, but it’s probably not, you know, the past.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, I totally agree. And we’ve had a lot of guests on here that have been successful with different marketing channels, whether it’s an Alexander Shunnarah, we haven’t had Alex on the show, but you know, he’s killed it with billboards. And we had individuals that have done great with TV or SEO or Facebook. So, yeah, there’s just a lot of different approaches if you get that strategy. Right. And it’s for you. Uh, kind of shifting there’s, there’s one thing that you talk about, that’s a bit different and I think it’s just so intriguing. Yeah. You’ve developed this paradigm of the marketing hourglass, as opposed to the marketing funnel. Could you walk us through what the marketing hourglass is and how it’s a bit different than from the traditional.

John Jantsch

Yeah. So for us, it’s, it’s really the customer journey. And I called it the marketing hourglass before it became kind of cool to talk about the customer journey, which is something that every marketer talks about today. But what I saw was everybody out there pitching this idea, the phone, you know, the shape, uh, funnels down. You know, you get as many people up there at the top and, you know, eventually a few of them will funnel down, turn into clients and you know, to me, You know, what I always thought was when I got a client, I want to serve them so well that I grow with them. You know, I don’t want to have to just go out and get more, uh, because I wasn’t selling a $29 product. Right. They’re selling a service that I, I hope to have clients. And so to me, I wonder how could I build intentionality into that idea? And, and so instead of, you know, creating demand, you know, I think what we try to do is organize behavior around seven stages and those stages are know, like trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. And so the hourglass metaphor really just acknowledges that, that, you know, you take the funnel and then once somebody goes through the funnel, you know, it kind of expands back out again. And that’s really the approach that we’ve always taken is that, you know, our job is to start with the belief that 100% of our clients are going to turn into raving fans. And so if that’s, you know, if that’s supportive, you, we start with, what do we have to do? Excuse me, what do we have to do? 45 days after they become a client 90 days after they become a client, what it does is it forces us to really focus as much energy on the customer experience as it does on getting the click or getting the email.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, I think that’s critical. We’ve, you know, I I’ve worked a lot of personal injury firms and they concentrate on getting that lead. Then it’s like, you know, the, the experience may not be as good. And then they have a more difficult time getting those reviews and, and being an SEO expert, you know, you understand how important those reviews are. And, uh, it just makes sense.

John Jantsch

Well, and, and just because you and I have talked before, I mean, I think that your industry, the SEO, particularly industry, you know, has a bit of a bad reputation. Smoke and mirrors and like, what do I really buy? I mean, I can’t tell you how many business owners I’ve talked to. They have no idea what they bought. You know, they pay somebody X amount a month. And so, you know, firms like yours. And I know that you do this, that actually create a great experience that actually teach and, and educate on the results that they’re getting and communicate. I mean, you know, it’s a, it’s just such a great way to differentiate.

Chris Dreyer

Well, thank you for that, John. I appreciate it. You know, uh, pivoting a little bit. I, you wanted to talk a little about, a little bit about podcasting. You’ve been in the game since 2007, you know, what drew you to podcasting in the first place and what’s, what’s kept you at it for almost 15 years.

John Jantsch

Well, so, you know, it was one of those things where I had been blogging for a few years and really saw the, the advantage of kind of getting on that. Uh, it just was, uh, to me I’d already been producing content. I’d been writing articles for article directories and things log-in came around and it was just like, oh, here’s a better place to put my content. Anyway, podcasting felt like a bit like the same thing. It was kind of new. It was early on, but it also just felt to me like another way to produce content. But the thing about it that was so intriguing to me is that. I was able to get just about anybody I wanted to come on my show. And so it was like, you know, stuff go was a, an early most of your listeners, I’m sure at least have some knowledge of who he is. Um, and you know, he, he was one of the earliest guests on my show. Had I sent him an email and said, Hey, I’d love to pick your brain for 20. You know, he probably wouldn’t even ever replied, but when I said, Hey, I’d like to talk about your new book on my show. Um, next thing I know, you know, Seth Godin’s a good friend and he’s writing a blurb for my, you know, my first book. And so I just saw it as a great way to get, to have conversations with people. I wanted to have conversations with now, you know, I’ve been doing it a long time, so it’s grown and turned into a, a revenue stream for us and a great, you know, marketing component. But I would still do it today because of the conversations.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, I think it’s, it’s a way to give value and, you know, get your foot in the door. You know, what other advantages do podcasts have over, you know, maybe other marketing channels. I know you touched on a, a few of them, but, uh, just, just, just your overall thoughts. Well, I,

John Jantsch

I think if one thing, I mean, let’s face it it’s content. I mean, so that’s, you know, that’s, that’s the starting point, but it’s content that can be. Cut up into little pieces. It’s content that can be transcribed. And so it can be a different format of content. You and I are doing this today with video cameras on. So all of a sudden we’ve got another form or format. So that’s one of the things, but I think that particularly the pure audio component of it, it’s, it’s probably the most portable content because you know, somebody can listen to it in their car, they can walk the dog, they can be on the treadmill and they’re consuming your time. So from a just pure content play, you know, I think that’s, um, that, you know, adds a lot of value, but there are also some people I know when I write a book, um, if, if my, the audio book version doesn’t come out on the same day, you know, I am instantly here for people because it’s a format that, that there are people that that’s the only way they consume content. So, you know, that’s, those are some of the advantages of having. Um, from a, just a pure content standpoint, but also, you know, regardless of the kind of business, now I’m a marketer and I interview authors who typically and quite often are in marketing, you know, space on my show. I had you on my show. Um, so, um, for me, it’s a great way for me to get, you know, external content that I’m not, you know, I can bring the best of the best, that any specific thing. And now I own that content and I have that content on my side and people come to my site and they go, oh wow, these are your top 10 guests on your show. So it certainly has the ability to elevate your authority, create great content, create content. That’s, you know, it’s very shareable, uh, and very portable. Uh, but, but also I think, you know, that gives you kind of the ability to, to offer some expertise and, and I’ll take that down to. I’m there maybe a, a much different level. You can be that local consultant who works with CEOs of, you know, manufacturing firms in your city. Well going out and, and having those inviting the CEOs of those firms who let’s face it are actually prospects to be interviewed on your show is a tremendous way to get sort of a backdoor sales conversation, or at least a Hey here’s who we are. Conversation. While at the same time, serving them and producing great content for yourself. So there’s just so many, so many benefits to podcasting. Yeah.

Chris Dreyer

And, and with the domain authority that your site has, I imagined that any piece of any article that you upload to, it stands a significant, a great chance to rank because you know, your sites got over 10,000 referring domains and just a ton of.

John Jantsch

Yeah. I mean, there’s no question that, that, you know, that comes with a lot of time and a lot of effort that we’ve put into it, but there’s no question, you know, a link from our site. You know, when I have somebody on to the person that’s been my guest, you know, a link, um, you know, we linked to their ebook. We linked to whatever their course, you know, whatever they tell us, you know, that it’s valuable. You know, those links have tremendous value and obviously. I know your, your audience, a lot of SEO folks, and, you know, they, they get the idea that backlinks are a big part of the always, probably will be. But so certainly today are a big part. Yeah, the SEO puzzle. Um, and that’s another, you know, from a, um, for the, for the guest, um, that’s a tremendous benefit in, in many cases is, is today. I think it’s one of the best way, best ways to get really potent useful back links is to be guests on, on pod.

Chris Dreyer

Not only does John have his own podcast. He started a company that helps connect podcast hosts with potential guests. It’s called Podcast Bookers. I want to know how it worked and what value people can get from appearing on pod.

John Jantsch

Okay. Well, sure. So, so we realized the value of, you know, of backlinks of getting people on podcasts. And, and I think there’s a bit of a gap. There’s probably more podcasts out there than there are guests on podcasts in some cases. And so realizing there was a little bit of gap. Um, what we started Podcast Bookers to do was to get. The attorney remodeling contractor, you know, the people that weren’t thinking about, oh, I need to be on podcasts, um, to, to book them on podcasts and get them to start seeing the, you know, the value of, you know, once a week or two times a month or something being on some of these podcasts. And then, you know, over time building their expertise, giving them a library of, of, you know, audio content that they can start referencing and let’s face it getting, you know, great backlash. You know, back to their sites as well. Um, and so the, basically what we do is somebody comes to us. They say, here’s who I am. Here’s what I want to talk about. And we get them on shows. I mean, that’s, that’s a simple thing. They can buy 2, 3, 5 a month, whatever they want to do. Um, but we also, uh, follow up, we get them booked, you know, we help them get, you know, the material that they can put out there so that they can get on, on shows or show that they are indeed an expert. Help them develop their topics that they want to talk about and things, but, you know, the, somebody goes out and does that for, you know, a few months. Um, first off they get good at it, um, which, you know, helps to get more comfortable with it. Um, but the thing that, that, you know, a lot of people have been doing, like guest posting and things like that for a long time, it’s a lot of work to write, you know, theoretically exclusive content, then go out and find somebody who wants it. And then let’s. A lot of sites anymore that accept guest posts. I mean, it’s on there with the 10 others that they got that day. And it’s just kind of, who knows if it’ll ever see the light of day, but on a podcast that. Who, who does that show, you know, is very intent on getting ears on that show. They’re going to promote that show. They’re gonna promote that. You’re on that, you know, there typically will be social posts that go along with your appearance. And so not only do you get this great, backlink not only do you get this great content. You’re probably going to get audience, um, far greater at a far greater level than, than you would on say a guest blog post.

Chris Dreyer

I absolutely love everything about that. And, you know, I think a lot of, uh, and I know, you know, this yourself working with, with your clients, that your clients aren’t, they want to help, you know, help the agency, do whatever they can, you know, whatever it takes to make this a success. And you get that question a lot, you know, what, what else could we be doing? And I love it. When we have a client that’s willing to do podcasts, we have one of our, uh, actually a couple of our clients use your service and it’s just a way to activate them to help with the link building tactics. And like you said, you know, if you guess. You know, who knows if that’ll be promoted on social media, who knows when it will even be crawled. And, um, I just, I just love, there’s just so many aspects of podcasting and, you know, you know, promoting a book, promoting your own podcasts. I just, I just love everything about it.

John Jantsch

Yeah. It’s um, you know, you’re, you’re absolutely right from an SEO provider standpoint, it’s, it’s sort of the. Sneaky little trick, right. You’re you’re playing is now actually they’re building backlinks, uh, for you. So you don’t have to go off to some site in Belarus just despite them. Right? Right.

Chris Dreyer

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, that’s, that’s the truth, right? And again, it’s different than. It’s uh, not everyone wants to go do a podcast. So you do those competitive analysis. You get some people that have those links from podcasts and others that don’t.

John Jantsch

Yeah. Yeah. And I think for anybody that’s in professional services of any type, it’s a no brainer. I mean, because it, you know, professional service sale, uh, hiring an attorney, hiring an accountant as is so, um, involve the trust is such a big thing. Uh, in that. And so the fact that you are on these shows, uh, somebody else saw you as an expert. I think that goes into the trust building box, but I tell you increasingly, I don’t think there’s a business out there that can’t benefit from it. Obviously it’s more potent for some, but it certainly has. Uh, I think in terms of relative time span, it has, uh, uh, benefits really for anybody. I don’t care what industry.

Chris Dreyer

Absolutely. And we’ve talked to, you know, a little bit about Podcast Bookers and the benefits there and, and, uh, Duct Tape Marketing and, and everything you do there. What, you know, tell us a little bit about how you are certifying and developing marketers.

John Jantsch

Well, so when I started this approach that I talked about this systematic approach, I call the Duct Tape Marketing because I felt like it needed a brand name. I’ve built a full practice, but I didn’t really want to build an agency per se, with all the in-house staff. And so I documented it. I started selling kind of a course, if you will, uh, called Duct Tape Marketing. And I started attracting other independent marketing consultants and agents. That, you know, we’re experiencing the same thing I met. They wanted to work with small business owners, but it’s kind of frustrating. Uh, so, so they wanted to kind of use my methodology. And so I started in network, it’s called the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network. We’ve got about 150, uh, today, um, independent agencies, uh, around the world that license our material, get all of our training get certified, but, but ultimately, uh, collaborate with them. Uh, about 75% of the folks in our network are solopreneurs. And, uh, so you know, anybody who’s, uh, who’s doing it, you know, because we can, now you can build a nice business all by yourself right today. Uh, but it can be a little lonely out there to not have anybody to really collaborate with or even bounce ideas off of, or, you know, get, uh, best practices from. So, you know, people join our network really for all the tools and. Processes that we’ve built, but they stick around because it’s just a great, it’s great having that community in that network.

Chris Dreyer

John’s a bit of an overachiever. In addition to his business, his other business, his consulting network and his podcast. He’s also successful author. His seventh book, “The Ultimate Marketing Engine” comes out in September, 2021. I asked John what readers could expect to learn from the book.

John Jantsch

One of the things that I signed the contract with this book, um, like a week before the first lockdowns started in 2020 during the pandemic. And I didn’t want to write a, you know, how to market in a pandemic kind of book. Um, but one of the things that became really clear to me. During the, during this period that we all went through was that, you know, I had a lot of clients, some of them really not by any fault of being in the wrong industry at the wrong time, got wiped out. But I also saw a lot of businesses that were able to adjust and hang in there and actually even are thriving now. Um, and, and the key thing that, that it’s always been true, but it was just so highlighted during that period. You know, in, in, in really good times, I mean, businesses can profit just by, you know, being in the right industry, but in tough times, um, businesses prosper because they mean something to their customers. Um, and, and that, I think we all saw, you know, I mean, there were businesses that people wanted to stay in business that went out of their way to keep in business or to, you know, to rally around the community and. So this book, um, you know, the ultimate marketing engine is really presents this idea of looking at our customers as members. And I don’t mean, I don’t mean membership model, subscription model. I mean, those are great models, but talking about even a service business that rather than looking at them as, okay, here’s what I provide. Here’s what you said you wanted to buy here today. Um, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but what if you actually looked at and said, look, here’s where you are today, but here’s where you want to go. How can we get you there? And so, instead of just saying, here’s what we sell you, you create a, the book really outlined something. I call the customer success track where you’re able to analyze the stage that every one of your customers is in, you know, the, the, the characteristics of that stage. Um, the, the challenges of that stage and the promise of maybe moving to the next stage with the idea that, you know, I’m sure you see this most, most of our marketing clients come in and what we call foundational stage, you know, their website’s kind of a wreck. They, they really have just been iffy on content. Um, they’re not sure what’s going on in SEO. So we’ve got to build that, that foundation, but we ultimately want to take them to the point where they’re now, you know, now their websites generating not just leads, but converting. Um, that we want to take them to the, you know, the level where now they’re adding more products and services. So essentially. The plan is to evolve them, to mature them, not just to fix what it is and generate more leads. So, you know, ultimately, uh, you get to the point where you are, are growing with your customers as opposed to going out and finding new customers. So it, it ultimately leads to this idea that, that. You know, you’re, you’re receiving most of your business by virtue of the fact that you have happy customers, but it really starts with now I get into a lot of tactical elements of that, but it really starts with a point of view that, that your job is not to just serve the customer it’s to help them mature and help them go to where they want.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, that’s, that’s wonderful. And I think, you know, a lot of sales conversations, they probably start out with, you know, here are your issues. Right. And it, I, I think what I’m hearing is it needs to be like more, you know, where do you want to go type of conversation?

John Jantsch

Well, it is. And one of the things that, you know, it gets rather involved, but one of the, the attributes of that is once you kind of map that out, then you can actually say, okay, if they’re in this stage, what are the milestones that they need to achieve in order to go to the next stage? And the reason I love that is because milestones are typically yes or no. Did you do this? Did you not do this? So instead of something like. Is there, you know, is there a website, you know, effective? You know, that might be something somebody might at school. I don’t know. You know, I don’t, you answer that, but does it load effectively on a mobile. Yes or no. Okay. Well then we can move onto the next thing. So each of our stages has, you know, in some cases, hundreds of milestones. And so it’s not just a matter of identifying these and just because it sounds nice to say from where you are to where you want to go, but we’re actually systemized that to, you know, a hundred little yes or no. Uh, questions. And of course, obviously, tasks that go along with those questions. So you literally can create an entire blueprint that, that answers that. Okay, well, here’s how you get to where you want to go. And I think that when I started. When I started really embracing this, uh, thinking in this point of view, it really changed how we looked at our customers. It changed certainly how we serve them, but it also changed the conversations we’re having with them. We’re having much deeper conversations in the beginning, you know, rather than to responding to what we think their problem is.

Chris Dreyer

I love that. And then you can find synergies and, and kind of just there’s complete alignment on the, in regards to the goals. So really excited about that book coming out and, you know, I’ve, I’ve listened to other interviews you’ve done and yeah. You’ve read more than most individuals, I would say, you know, I’ve heard you read 50 to a hundred plus books every single year, you know? So I generally don’t ask this question. I’m sure you’ve been asked it a ton, but you know, what are some of the books that you recommend, particularly on the business or marketing side?

John Jantsch

So full disclosure, you know, part of the reason I read so many books as I, I do, I do over a hundred interviews, uh, with, um, authors, uh, I may not read them cover to cover, but I constantly am reading because I read so many books in marketing and business. I’m, I’m constantly looking for inspiration. In other areas. I find that some of my greatest innovations come from reading books about. Architecture or nature or, or, you know, science or math. Um, and, you know, as opposed to just sticking in the little bubble of books that we all all have a tendency to read. Right. So, so I will say that, you know, if I gave you a list of all the books that I read last year, you know, you’d find some, you know, some seemingly strange. Uh, once, uh, on there, but I just, I guess it’s because I get sort of force fed so many of the current marketing books. I’m always, uh, I’m always out there looking for, you know, topics that, uh, um, seem interesting to me. I’ll, I’ll tell you the one that I’m just finishing up is, uh, uh, um, the, uh, the mythology of wolves in literature throughout.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a different one.

John Jantsch

So, so what’s so interesting about, I’ll give you the two second version of that book. You know, we all, we all know red riding hood and the big, bad Wolf, and, you know, the Wolf has been. Really demonized, uh, as an animal, but as a, as a mythological character, uh, throughout literature. Um, and it’s really done a lot to, uh, and again, I’m not, I won’t get on my soapbox here, but it’s done a lot to really, uh, you know, people want to kill wolves. People are afraid of wolves, you know, and, and you know, it, it, I think there’s, uh, will serve, you know, part of the ecosystem. And, uh, so it’s, uh, it’s just to me, it’s, I’m not even reading it. Social statement by any means, but it’s a, it’s just fascinating to me. Um, but it also. I mean, it gives me, uh, there, there are ideas that I put in this next book that came out of this idea of, of the ecosystem and returning wolves to Yellowstone, for example, and what that did actually to create a more healthy ecosystem, because I think that’s businesses are a lot like ecosystems, frankly. And if one part is out of alignment, if one apex, you know, uh, predator is not present, uh, then, uh, you know, things fall apart. Uh, so, you know, I just think there’s so many things in other parts of life that, uh, that have a lot to teach us about.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, I think that’s incredible. I think that’s a valuable piece of advice. And, uh, John, this, this has been so wonderful speaking with you and you have such a wealth of knowledge. I just love having you on the show. You know, where can individuals go to learn more about you and your work?

John Jantsch

Well, you bet. Well, I appreciate that Chris. And I’ve enjoyed my time here as well. Um, so the easiest place, I mean, uh, I’m on all the social networks as, as Duct Tape Marketing, but if you just want to drop by DuctTapeMarketing.com, which is D U C T T A P E marketing.com, you can find my podcasts or find my books there. I’ve got, you know, like everybody, I got free stuff there that you can subscribe to.

Chris Dreyer

John’s been successful for 35 years, for a reason, his advice works like what he said about growing with your customers. If you find out where your customers want to go, you can spend your energy, helping them get there. Instead of searching for new customers, I’d like to thank John Jantsch from Duct Tape Marketing for sharing a story with us. And I hope you gained some valuable insights from the conversation. You’ve been listening to the personal injury marketing mastermind. I’m Chris Dreyer. If you liked this episode, leave us a review. We love to hear from our listeners. I’ll catch you on next. Week’s PIMM with another incredible guest and all the strategies you need to master personal injury marketing.

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