124. Joey Vitale, Indie Law — Automation and Authenticity: Build A Stress-Free Law Firm

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Joey Vitale, owner of Chicago-based Indie Law, built an automated law firm that has over 100 5-star Google reviews, helped thousands of clients, and has grown to over 14 staff members in just 5 years. Dedicated to strict processes and, at its core, designed to be stress-free, he has more time to focus on the future and life outside of the firm.

On today’s episode, we discuss building an assembly line so owners can design themselves out of the day-to-day, the merits of micro specializations, authenticity, and truly understanding your offer.

What’s in This Episode?

  • Who is Joey Vitale?
  • How can an automated law firm build an authentic brand?
  • How did Joey become the go-to lawyer for grandmas on Etsy?
  • Why is a practice area not a niche?
  • In saturated markets like personal injury firms, is niching down even further a wise choice?
  • How can personal injury lawyers set up processes of systemization?
  • How can a business voice coach make you a better, more confident attorney?

Find out more about Joey’s Voice coach, Tracy Goodwin here.

Transcript

Joey Vitale

How do I systematize my practice area? So I think that is a concern. Is, are you going to niche into something that is really hard to build an assembly line around and design yourself out of?

Chris Dreyer

Designing yourself out of a business, creates more room for possibility and focus on the direction of the firm.

Joey Vitale

That said, one of the things that I’ve also learned is that a practice area is not a niche.

Chris Dreyer

You’re listening to Personal Injury Mastermind, where we give you the tools you need to take your personal injury practice to the next level. Joey Vitale owner of Indie Law is an expert on creating an automated law firm dedicated to strict processes at its core designed to be stress-free, his Chicago-based trademark law firm has over 105 star Google reviews and has grown over 14 staff members in just five years. On today’s episode, we discuss building an assembly line so owners can design themselves out of the day-to-day, the merits of micro specializations, authenticity, and truly understanding your offer. I’m your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. We help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings with search engine optimization. Being at the forefront of marketing is all about understanding people. So let’s get to know our guests. Here’s Joey Vitale owner at Indie Law.

Joey Vitale

In my family, all of the boys were expected to go to construction school, to join the concrete family business and when I spent my first summer loading and unloading trucks and it was like, this is not for me. Then my dad, God love him, was like there’s already a doctor in the family. So go to law school. I was like, okay, great. So I went to law school as an undecided graduate degree.

Chris Dreyer

That’s awesome. kicking things off. I want to talk about brand building and your brand has real, what I would say real authenticity. When someone visits your site, your Instagram, your personality, and your presence is front and center. When you’re thinking about personal brand building and promoting your business, what’s your thoughts on it on being front and center like that?

Joey Vitale

I appreciate that as almost a follow-up question to the first question, because for me, so much of brand-building came when I realized, oh, Why did I go to law school again? Like, why am I a lawyer? Do I really like this stuff? I spent a couple of years again, without a lot of intention, just finding myself at a mid-sized law firm in St. Louis, great people. But I was like, Is this really what I was meant to do? And luckily. Right when I was thinking, oh, should I go out maybe and try my own thing, or should I find a new job? Should I do waiting tables while I maybe try and use my law degree in a creative way? I found a great business coach who really started the conversation with. Who would you love to work with? Tell me more about your personality and how can we build a law firm based on your strengths instead of it, continuing to feel like you’re fighting this uphill journey of trying to be that great shark in a courtroom that I’m not.

Chris Dreyer

That’s so interesting to have that guide. Talk to me about that. Like, how did you find this business coach? How did you know that this was the person you need to talk to? Because you had a little bit of an uncertainty. how did that kind of map out?

Joey Vitale

Yeah I look back and I’m really grateful that I hadn’t had a lot of experience in the business world yet to sensitize me to all of this stuff. I’m meeting more and more business owners and law firm owners who come to me with, which coach should I work with? I’ve got these great options. I don’t know who to move forward with. I didn’t realize that business coaches were like a thing. So when I found someone who first rose her hand was like, I can help you. I was like, oh great. And I just jumped on the opportunity. And I just got really lucky that you would also a really great business coach. Nice. But when we sat down and she was telling me about her past and asking me my questions, questions about myself. And at some point she said, so it seems like you’re pretty open. To practicing law in just, a way that’s different than the typical courtroom environment. And I said, yeah. And she said have you ever thought about working with grandma’s on Etsy? Curve ball. It was like no, but tell me more. And so she was like it’s, she was like, it’s totally your call to pick which niche you want to run with. But if you would be at all interested in building a reputation for working with at Etsy . Store owners, she said, I’ve spent the past few years getting to know creative as an artist. And Ive been introduced and invited into all of these different Facebook groups. There isn’t really a lawyer in these groups right now, and there are tens of thousands of Etsy store owners. And I was like, okay, let’s do it. So that was really, my first niche was being the main go-to lawyer in this super niched, almost hobby business set of Facebook.

Chris Dreyer

That’s so interesting. And I had a similar story with Mike Papantonio. He was joking about personal injury attorneys, dropping pamphlets from the sky and hope picks them up and how he niched into mass torts. And you went to that blue ocean and not right into the red ocean, which there’s all different types of strategies. and then you came to Indy Firm very specific type of law. So tell me about Indy law and then tell me like how you came to that specialization and how you niched into indy?

Joey Vitale

So Indy law now is a trademarks first and really trademarks only law firm. What happened was about a year after starting. The version of my law firm, as it exists today a few things happened very similar timeframes. It was all around the same period of about a year after I launched my firm. So I would say maybe it was really three things that happened in total. Number one. For the first time in my professional career, I was actually working with clients directly and figuring out what their pain points were on the ground. And I was starting to see that even though most of them weren’t coming to me, asking about trademarks. A lot of them really needed that and were coming to me months later saying, Hey, I know I didn’t ask you about this, but you should have told me that I needed it because now someone’s sending me a cease and desist letter. Or someone filed an Etsy claim against me and I might lose my entire store. So we started learning those lessons. I also was getting more and more business owner friends saying, Hey, you should really start creating a course for business owners who can’t afford you. And then the third thing is I had this really serious series of panic attacks and. I’m fine now, but when I was really in the depths of a really scary time in my life, I was just, I was worried, I don’t want my family to have to take care of me. I I don’t want to keep stressing my wife out with whatever this illness is and oh shoot. I have a business to run now. And how can my clients get taken care of? And I remember when I was in the hospital for weeks thinking about what I could do and those books like E-Myth and those other like business Bibles came to mind as what can I be doing that would be like, quote, unquote, good for business in terms of building systems and processes and like an assembly line of what our law firm could provide. That would also be really great for my mental health. And I’ll never forget my last day of outpatient therapy, the doctor who had been treating me the whole time said, you have to do everything that you can do to create a stress free law firm for your self. And I was like, oh, that’s great. So what happened with the culmination of all of that was what if we take indie law and we focus just on trademarks, because that seems to be, to use your great words, a blue ocean right now that not a lot of people in this niche are going after a specificly and exclusively, how can we build an assembly line around it so that if anything happens to me or where, if I want to take a vacation, the business can serve those clients. And if we focus in on trademarks, how can we start creating courses and things for businesses who might not be able to afford to work with this? One-to-one.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I want to, I really want to unpack that So the first thing is you were very intentional. So it reminds me of that. Good to great Venn diagram, that purpose, passion, profit, Hey passion, not a stressor, but purpose to help people and profit. So it was very interesting that you unpack that. The other thing taken a step back. Is, was it the opportunity to work with the Etsy store owners that then gave you the awareness that this opportunity for the trademark laws existed?

Joey Vitale

Yeah. So what was really interesting is the more we helped Etsy store owners, the more we realized that there is this. There is this risk around trademarks that is particularly relevant to the Etsy store audience, which is, if you don’t have a registration for your trademark, for your business name, you don’t have any evidence to point to if it ever gets called into question that someone else might own certain things. And etsy, like many platforms has this rule where if someone claims trademark infringement against you, they can easily file a report for free. You can respond to it and negate it. And then the platform basically says, okay, you parties can duke it out. What was starting to happen on Etsy though, was like the evil geniuses who were also Etsy store owners were realizing, oh, if I just have me and enough of my friends file lawsuits are filed claims against our competitors Etsy will just assume, oh, they got this many claims against them. So they must be doing something. And so there were a lot of Etsy store owners coming to me saying, we’ve already seen, received two of these claims. We can’t afford to get another one because most of our sales are coming through Etsy. Wow. They had coercion like, and it’s, it was really sad because none of these Etsy store owners individually really had the budgets to defend themselves in court. If it ever got to that point.

Chris Dreyer

So interesting. And I say this quote a lot, my audience is probably going to roll their eyes, but it’s don’t fall in love with your product or service fall in love with helping your client, right? So you really identified a pain they had and you went all in to help them solve that pain. And for our audience too, like I went into. I didn’t, I’m not a lawyer. I didn’t know the different sub areas, the law very well. I didn’t know the extreme demand for PI marketing and saturation. So then I niched down further and now I see even further opportunities to niche down even further. So I guess my question here is let’s take a red ocean, personal injury law immediately. It’s competitive, right? People just attack each other on daytime television and all the airtime. should they consider it a niche down further and to maybe trucking or motorcycles or, what are the pros and what are the cons and the way that you see niching, because you do give up other types of opportunities when you embrace a niche. So what’s your thought process behind that?

Joey Vitale

Man, The more, I talk to non IP attorneys. The more I realize again, how grateful and lucky I am, that when we decided to go into trademarks, we’re like, oh, this seems like something that we can really systematize pretty easily. And we can, and I feel for attorneys who were like, how do I systematize my practice area? So I think that is a concern. Is, are you going to niche into something that is really hard to build an assembly line around and design yourself out of that said, one of the things that I’ve also learned is that a practice area is not a niche.

Chris Dreyer

Explain expound. That’s very interesting.

Joey Vitale

And I so appreciate the compliments that you gave around, like doing your research and feeling like, us. We are getting clear and clear around who our client avatar is, who our ideal audience is. And just because we do trademark doesn’t mean that informs who our audiences, like not every single business owner that needs trademark help is our audience. And so I’m having really interesting conversations where When you niche down to a certain type of client, you could actually, you might end up with a really specific niche that has multiple practice areas. Like you become the it law firm to take care of all of this type of client’s needs.

Chris Dreyer

When you know how to solve the pains of a unique audience, it is easy to become the trusted source with a defined brand voice. To that end, Joey explains the concept of magnetic marketing.

Joey Vitale

Learning more and more about this concept of magnetic marketing of, the more you want to attract your really ideal people. Being magnetic also means that you’re going to repel people and you have to lean into that too. And you have to be in order to make your ideal client, read your email, see website, and be like, oh my gosh, this guy is talking to me. There has to be an audience of people who see this. They’re like, ah, that’s totally not my jam.

Chris Dreyer

And I think that’s so interesting too, you understand that the introspection is as I’m going to be right for some people, but I’m going to be wrong for many and just being okay with that. And I think it allows you to speak to them in a much deeper level and really understand their pains and who they are and where they congregate and how to get in front of them and all those types of things. Which leads me to my next point. Yeah, we’re talking about building credibility as a brand. You do something that’s a little different and I wanted to see if it could be applied to the PI space or if it doesn’t really fit you, you offer whole masterclasses, right? So for attorneys, specifically personal injury attorneys, thinking of adding a masterclass to their marketing Is this an opportunity here because we don’t know when individuals are going to get into car wrecks.

Joey Vitale

Oh, that’s so interesting. Yeah, I really liked that question. So one of the things that we’re trying to do, as best as we can is figure out where our audience is currently at on the buyer’s journey with out us coming to the rescue anywhere and maybe informing them and making them aware. And what we have found is that when it comes to trademarks, a lot of our clients, a lot of people in general have some working knowledge of what a trademark means. It’s out of all of the different legal topics. It’s one of the more common things that are in the new. Like people have this idea of what it means to be trademarked. The problem is that most of what they think about it and how they use it in everyday language, isn’t accurate legally. And so we’ve found that it seems to be continuing to be true is that a webinar is helpful at getting their attention at they learn more about this. And by the end of the webinar, they realize how much of what they thought about trademarks was wrong. That’s really why for us a webinar, excuse me, working really is because there’s that kind of thought reversal that helps them see that they’re a good fit for us and that we can help them. In terms of PI better than I do. But yeah, I don’t know if there are milestones on the buyer’s journey where they have to have certain thoughts be reversed or having thinks that they think they know, but they don’t really know about how this works be made available to them. The other thing that makes trademarks tough, I have a colleague whose wife. Who’s also a lawyer. Once they get into trademarks, she made me put four or five months of work into building up that practice area. In addition to what her firm also does, I met him at a mastermind a few weeks ago and he was like, she stopped because it was too hard for her, like people who are in buying. And I was like, yeah, I get, we’ve had to put a lot of legwork up front on the marketing side to warm up an audience, to be ready to work with us. Yeah,

Chris Dreyer

The webinar’s a good piece of the funnel, right? You can capture the email, it gives you something to market, You can, it is an event like you can actually schedule it out and promote it for a set period of time. The. The thing that’s interesting. And I keep going back to is I’m trying to think of how this could be applicable to the audience. I could see it for a tort, like maybe, like a Roundup or Zantac or something like that like people maybe have this preconceived misconception about the circumstance and maybe they’re like, oh, I’ll join this 15, 30 minute webinar or masterclass and oh, I’m totally wrong. I have a case.

Joey Vitale

That’s a really interesting idea. Another thing, then again, you can speak circles around me with all of this but I wonder if there’s ever a good opportunity to do more of a referral partner pointing webinar saying if you’re sending us referrals. And it seems like you’re sending us bad fits, or you don’t really understand what we do here is a kind of one to many training we can do with all of you so that you better understand the types of good fits for our firm.

Chris Dreyer

I think that ties in and we talk about Morgan and Morgan a lot, the size matters, biggest PI firm. One of the things they do well, and I creeped their careers page and I was looking at all their postings and they have these referral ambassadors where they introduce their value proposition to other law firms to get those cases that they’re not signing. They’re like send us all of that. I think that’s a super strong value proposition. Yeah, that for them, a webinar would be perfect because it’s one to many. Very intriguing. Yeah. So I think if you’re a personal injury law firm and you’re wanting to maybe build a local, like a community with other lawyers, it could be, it could potentially be a good tactic and networking tactic, as opposed to maybe trying to just catch someone that was in an auto accident because of timing. And that might be a more broad top of mind awareness type of component for marketing. Really interesting. Th the other thing is to your books. I want to dive into your book. You, so first of all, your title really got me. The Business Growth Advantage: How to rRun Your Business In One Hour a Week, Crack the Social Media Code and Make Limitless Income and Impact. First of all, I immediately go to Tim Ferris. I’m like, okay. So Joey’s saying, instead of four hours a week, he said one hour a week and immediately I’m thinking this is great, tell us a little bit about the book who it’s for and what readers can expect.

Joey Vitale

Part of the inspiration for the book was I was talking with some friends and again, when people ask me about my origin story, I usually start with that series of panic attacks episode, just cause that, that informed so much of how the business has grown since. And I was talking with some lawyer friends and they were like, how much legal work, are you actually doing a week? And I was like, oh, maybe like a month or an hours worth a week. And they were like, what, how are you doing that? So that’s where the hour a week came from really how I got to a point where I’m only spending an hour a week doing like the client work. And since I started writing the book, I’ve taken that as a challenge of, okay, how can I get the other parts of me running that business down more and more. And it’s been a great challenge because now that, I can tell you’re one of these people too, like at the end of the day, if I didn’t have any work to do, I would still come up with some way to help people. And so the beauty of. Of trying to design yourself out of the business that you’re in is that it allows you to just focus on, okay, what’s next. What’s a higher value way that I can contribute and help people. And up until the point where I was writing my book, so many of what I was working towards was just like doctor’s orders. Like I’m supposed to be doing this for my own mental health. And then one of my mentors and. Now really good friends told me to the side and said, Hey, your story is really interesting because the steps that you took for your mental health are the same steps that I would recommend any business owner, if they want to sell their law firm. You’ve eliminated a lot of waste because you’re specific and people talk about efficiencies and improving processes and things, but they don’t go on the waste direction. And what I equate that to is the niche. You’re not doing everything you’re eliminating that. And you can really create a very specific process for the one thing and better so than other individuals. One of the reasons why, when we started dipping our toes in this, we just kept walking into the water was because I realized from a financial standpoint, just the math of projections get so much easier to do when whenever someone buys from you, exactly like what that price point is. And one of the most helpful exercises that, that we now go through is it’s really a mindset shift too, is the goal in our business is not to make the most money in the world. It’s to make a certain it’s to hit a certain revenue goal, which would allow for a certain profit take home team, pay everything else, and so so it’s not like we’re striving for as many sales as possible, there’s a specific number that we’re reaching towards. And there’s a real sense of scrambling. If you don’t have a niche, a specific kind of go-to default package, or I, our sense of how much money comes in every time a new client buys.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, that would allow for forecasting and predictability on a different level and taking this a step further. I just wanted to just get your general thoughts on just how you see leverage. Okay. In terms of. People in time. There’s people leverage there’s, there’s tools, there’s AI, are you saying that for you, you’ve been intentional to maybe have less people, but maybe lean itself more on technology and AI like how do you see this all play into just leverage in general from a top down perspective?

Joey Vitale

Man respect? Really good question. We. This might be changing, but up until now, our strategy has been, how can we hire a high number of overseas generalist VAs? How can we provide them with processes and steps to follow and really have an army of generalist workforces that I mean are all putting in usually less than 40 hours a month. Because again, in the same way that I had my issue and I was stuck in the hospital for two weeks, we now have a team of 20 over half of them are overseas, very part-time in their hours, but it’s allowed for a lot of great coverage, so people can go on. Vacation, they can get sick with a whole lot of anxiety. And I know that we’re starting to enter in this new era that’s coming, or it’s going to be better and better for us to keep our eyes peeled for specialists to do certain things. But because. My team has done such a good job up until this point of really committing to strict processes for everything we haven’t really needed to bring specialists in that house.

Chris Dreyer

There’s a lot there. I haven’t, that’s the first time I’ve heard of it from like a coverage perspective, which I really like the different time zones and things like that. Cause it always, it seems like when we’re talking about international or whatever, we’re just always going directly to, pricing arbitrage and lower wages, things like that. thinking of myself, I’ve always thought, geez, you know what? We have our guys that work eight to five or eight to six, they, some of them work overtime, but what if I did a 24 hour? What if after six, then the next team checks in. So now twice the amount of productivity versus other SEO agencies are still doing the nine to five. Then it gets into like investments in hourly usage, things like that. But I like what you’re saying there around coverage, because then when somebody messages you nights or on the weekend? The coverage for an international employee, that might be their regular working hours.

Joey Vitale

Yep. Totally in it. It’s we, one of the blessings and the curses of being in the practice area that I’m in is I don’t really know of other trademark law firms that are specifically just doing trademark law that are reaching for seven figures, multiple seven figures a year. Whereas I know just the way that projections happen and the environment is with personal injury, that isn’t as much of . You know, or reach for a personal injury attorney to hit that type of a space. And because of that, when I started, I was very aware of the fact that I was limited in terms of budget and how many people I could hire. And I was able to find really great people to bring on at an administrative level to start and then promote them over time. Again, under a very part-time basis. And I’m just saying this, if it happens to be valuable to anyone, but we now have a really strong leadership team where the entire leadership team is part-time contractors and I’m still the only full-time teammate on the team.

Chris Dreyer

Wow. that’s out of the box, I would say, we’re not talking about top line and there’s profitability and there’s top line. So I know a lot of personal injury firms to show like a really great top line, but maybe don’t have profitability or are accruing a ton of debt. Yeah. Not managing cashflow properly. And. So I would say that, those are some other things just to take into account. But that’s definitely interesting in a different way to look at it. I was listening to get a grip today, the EOS accompanying, and it was talking about, they had a member on their marketing staff that was not an in-house member and they made it work. And I thought, oh, that’s really intriguing. And it just, if you have those clear communication lines and responsibilities, that it could work.

Joey Vitale

Yeah. And there, there are a challenge to it. We definitely have different employment law attorneys look up what we were doing and says yes, like these are definitely contractors would have XYZ changes then talk to us again. Cause you know, we want to be, especially as a law firm, very mindful of treating contractors as contractors and employees as employees. But the other thing is the other reason why I think that came as an idea for me was because as When I started working with Etsy store owners and then I’ve gotten to know a lot of like creative solo preneur types on my way to building the firm. And the more that, that we were starting to see growth with the firm. The more I saw that, oh, there are people around me who are business owners themselves are more entrepreneurial but would love to have a sense of security added to the top of that. And what would it look like if we created positions of like contractors who maybe they run their own like virtual assistant company, maybe they are a full-time photographer, but they want to do this on the side. Like how can we take people who already know. Slack and Google drive and Last Pass and stuff and can just really quickly fit into the systems that we’re creating. And there was a period where that’s worked really well for us.

Chris Dreyer

The foundation of a solid social media campaign is having a comprehensive understanding of your offer. Here’s Joey’s take on social media and upcoming lawyers.

Joey Vitale

I am starting to see this newer wave of lawyers who are amazing at social media, who are crushing it on Tick Tok. Before we get to social media, though, we need to make sure that you have a really strong foundation in terms of your offer, your niche, that your clients are happy with you. That, that when you’re hopping on the call that you’re converting well, you need to make sure that you’re fulfilling well, that the sales department is running smoothly. And then we can start looking to social media because we really want that to be a layer on top of what else is going. One of the biggest mistakes that I see across the board, and I’m very sensitive to this because I understand why lawyers make this mistake, but there are like zero calls to action on most law firms, social media posts. And it’s because you don’t want to be that lawyer. You don’t want to be that person on the billboard that you hate. And whenever you drive past them, you’re like, oh, I’m doing it different than you, but you need to make sure that you are letting people know it. at the end of your content. What’s the next step? How do they get ahold of you? And don’t hold back when you create that space to invite people, to take the next step, to work with you. The other layer that I recommend building on top of that is trust-based content. Again, a lot of new lawyers are entering in the space. It is very cool for me to see so many. New lawyers entering in the trademark space because there are way more business owners than I could ever serve myself. And what’s great about trademarks is you can do that from anywhere. So it’s a really sexy practice area for newer attorneys right now. And a lot of people are, I say that all because a lot of people, especially trademark attorneys are making the mistake on focusing on like, why trademark. And that’s the point where you have to decide, do I want my marketing to really be positioning me as a expert in the field? Like I know what I’m talking about or do I want to position myself as the social proof law firm that is worth more? And you can see all of these reviews. We’re talking about, testimonials and Google reviews and the sense of, oh, this many people have said yes to working with this firm. So I should to the shift from why this practice area, or why this topic to why this law firm can be huge. And then on top of that, you can really stack on the attraction stuff, like being fun on social media being captivating, whether you’re just writing or whether you’re on video. There’s a lot to unpack here, but going after those more micro commitments and getting people to, it’s not just did my posts get likes today and how many calls did i get right. It’s there’s so much wiggle room inside there of, drop a comment below if this is true. One of my best performing posts ever was Brussels sprouts. Yes or no?

Chris Dreyer

That draws a line there. So no, but okay. Yeah, so I, I think a few things. So you can say there’s a lot of different ways you could refer to this, right? You could say no, like trust, awareness, consideration, conversion. I think know, like trust is the easiest. And I think I see a lot of personal injury firms just doing all trust and maybe not any of the know or engagement side. So they’re just posting all their reviews and case results and everything like that. Yeah. That could be a component of it, but maybe, Hey, maybe you need to build and have some humor and draw in some of those things that appeal to a lot or larger audience before you just go in for the juggler and try to get them to hire you every.

Joey Vitale

Totally. And again, I know that you can speak in circles around me with all of this, but one thing that we found is when you think about the buyer’s journey and a lot of people think of it as like a sales funnel or even a marketing funnel. It’s what are those touch points? That are closer to the sale that you can optimize first. How can you validate that’s working well and men go one wrong wider. Ultimately you get to a point where everything’s pretty dialed in and you just get to have fun at the attraction level or the know level.

Chris Dreyer

Fair. I think that’s the missing component is to have some of those that bring out the personality too. That’s fun. That appeals to a broader audience. I think that’s where the nomenclature, even from a content strategy gets all misconveyed in terms of blogs or pages or practice area pages.

Joey Vitale

And if I can just share a story real quick, I I started working with a voice coach a few years ago, who not like a singing voice coach, but like a let’s unpack the way that you speak so that you can show up more powerfully online type of voice coach and when we started working together, she went back and she went through some of my past videos that I had posted on social media, me giving legal tips, and we’re watching these videos together. And then she would pause it and be like, tell me what you were thinking right there. Like when you stuttered or you pulled away or rush through something, what was going on in your head and after a little bit of a back and forth, I realized that so many times when I was creating videos or when I was about ready to talk about the law, instead of thinking about having, my client or future client sitting in front of me and you speaking to them about how I can help them. I was thinking, what if another lawyer sees this? And what if they just rip apartwhat I’m saying, because I’m not getting the words right?. And my voice coach really helped me see that I’m never doing my clients and my followers, a service when I’m getting caught up in, what if another attorney sees this and disagrees with what I’m saying? And there, there are so many times, especially I would imagine as a personal injury attorney where you do have to be thinking about things in that way. But when you’re showing up to create content on social media, you have to turn that off and get into a totally different head space of the way that I had to think about it as is how do I want people to feel when they’re watching this video and how can I keep that feeling state that I want to convey at the forefront of what I’m talking about? And the words will just come. And so now what I get to is usually when I want to do like a quick outline on a five or a three or a 10 minute video, I’ll just write like three main words that I want to hit and then I’ll get a sense of, okay. Do I want people to be excited about this? I want people to be scared about this. Do I want people to be stressed or grateful or whatever? What’s the feeling that I want to convey and then I just put like those three words on the post-it right next to the webcam.

Chris Dreyer

Wow. That is a huge nugget there from just the EQ the emotional intelegence perspective. Just even like how you emphasize different words and how you the speed in which you say them. And I think. Can basically make the content more appealing to the person consuming the information. I think that’s, geez. That’s something I’m immediately going to start doing when I do my scripts for video. I’ve never thought of that. That’s such an amazing tip that I really want to highlight.

Joey Vitale

If anyone’s ones man, thanks Chris. I just, I’m sorry to interrupt. I just want to say if anyone’s interested, I’m happy to share my resources. My voice coach Tracy Goodwin. I don’t know how much capacity she has these days, but she works with a lot of attorneys and she’s fantastic.

Chris Dreyer

Thank you for that resource. We’ll definitely link her up. And and Joey, this has been awesome. I could take this off to speak to you all day. One final question here, what’s next for Indie Law and The Business Growth Advantage.

Joey Vitale

Man the, in terms of indie law we plan on by the end of 2025 to get to a place where we are filing 500 trademarks a year. And it took us five years to file our first 500 trademarks. So we’re really excited about hitting that, that big milestone. It’s our big mission to just be the best brand protectors that we can be. And so we just see that as a really great, like value aligned goal that we can be shooting for over the next three years. And then with th the business growth advantage side Th the book should be coming out, hopefully sometime next year. In the meantime, we just launched a brand new service called Global Vetted VA’s where anyone, especially a law firm owner, if you feel like you need to start delegating, you don’t know who to turn to. The Global Vetted VAs is a really great new option for law firm owners. We’re not an agency, but we’ll connect you with five high quality overseas. VA’s that we’ve already vetted. And you can pick out of those five, which one, or maybe even two, you want to hire.

Chris Dreyer

When thinking about the future of your practice, come back to your why of being a lawyer. Build a law firm based on your strengths. And remember that a law practice is not the same as a niche. To find the niche that is right for you, work with your clients directly to identify their pain points. Joey saw a unique problem with his Etsy clients and built a firm that exclusively works with trademarks. And when you become crystal clear on who your ideal client is, what their problems are, you have found your niche and become the ‘it’ lawyer for your audience. On the buyer’s journey. Identify the milestones of thought and patterns that need to be changed. Once you have worked out all the kinks of the lifecycle of a client, see what you can do to automate and replicate. Build a firm that gives you less stress. And more time. I’d like to think Joey Vitale from Indy Law for sharing his story with us. And I hope you gained some valuable insights from the conversation you’ve been listening to personal injury mastermind. I’m Chris Dreyer. If you like this episode, leave us a review. We love to hear from our listeners. I’ll catch you on next week’s PIMM with another incredible guest and all the strategies you need to master personal injury marketing.

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