Brian Panish, Panish Shea & Boyle – Building an Elite Trial Practice through Competitive Spirit and Grit
Brian Panish is the co-founder of Panish Shea & Boyle LLP. He is one of the nation’s preeminent trial lawyers and his accomplishments put him, to put it mildly, in rarefied air.
Brian’s skill in the courtroom has netted over 500 verdicts and settlements over the million-dollar mark, including a landmark victory over General Motors to the tune of $4.9 billion. He has received numerous Honors and Awards, including Best Lawyer status every year since 2001 and Southern California’s Super Lawyer every year since 2004.
In addition to his work at Panish Shea & Boyle, Brian currently serves as the President of the Inner Circle of Advocates, an elite group of the country’s 100 best plaintiffs lawyers.
What’s in This Episode:
- Who is Brian Panish?
- How Brian and his partners formed Panish Shea & Boyle.
- The most important lesson in accelerating your firm’s growth.
- How Brian selects his A team players.
- Brian talks about how to not settle for C or B players on your team.
- Tips on how to become a better trial lawyer.
- Why you should build and maintain a healthy network.
- Brian’s favorite business books.
- High-value activities that Brian does for his firm
- Brian’s one piece of advice to grow a large and successful practice.
This transcript was created using an automated transcription service and may contain errors.
Episode 20:
Prologue
Welcome to The Rankings Podcast, where we feature top founders, entrepreneurs and elite personal injury attorneys and share their inspiring stories. Now let’s get started with the show.
Chris Dreyer
Chris Dreyer here President and Founder of Rankings.io where we help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings. You’re listening to The Rankings Podcast where I feature innovative business owners and of course elite personal injury attorneys. Speaking of elite personal injury attorneys, my guest today is Brian Panish. cofounder of Panish Shea and Boyle. Brian is one of the nation’s preeminent trial lawyers and his accomplished put him to put it mildly in rarefied air. His skill in the courtroom has netted more than 250 verdicts and settlements over the million dollar mark, including a landmark victory over General Motors to the tune of $4.9 billion Honors and awards that he is have received are literally too numerous to list here, but highlights include best lawyer status every year since 2001. And Southern California super lawyer every year since 2004. In addition to his work at Panish Shea & Boyle, he is currently serves as the president of the inner circle of advocates, an elite group comprised of the country’s 100 best point of plaintiffs lawyers. Brian, welcome to the show.
Brian Panish
Chris, thanks for having me. Great to be here during this little pause that we’re having.
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, I’m excited to have you on the show. So let’s just jump right in. How did you get started? Did you always know that you were going to be an attorney?
Brian Panish
Well, my first thing was I thought it was going to be in the NFL. And luckily, my father was a plaintiff, personal injury attorney who tried 500 jury trials who loved what he did. And he always told me Well, if you don’t do if you don’t make it to the NFL, you never tell me you’re never gonna make it even say well, if you don’t make it, just in case What’s your backup plan? And I so I don’t know, maybe I’ll be in insurances. Now you need to get a profession. He says you need to get a profession, you could do what you want to do. And he says, just get good grades. So just in case if you want to go to law school, maybe I can help you out. And so I didn’t make it. Although I enjoyed football and agreed college time. And then I was coaching high school football, but I couldn’t get away from it teaching and was headed to college to coach and decided maybe I should try law school. So that’s how it started. And so I think for my family is where it first started. Ironically, all my brothers are lawyers. My wife’s a lawyer, and one of my daughters is lawyer right now and other ones law school so it kind of runs in the family.
Chris Dreyer
That that’s incredible. And you know, so I have a little background in sports and I saw that you had that scholarship to Fresno. And yeah, that’s that’s, I’m sure at the time you’re thinking you know, sports, sports, sports. And then when you started your early career as an attorney, did you know that this was just something that was special that you really enjoyed and were passionate about? I knew
Brian Panish
way before I became an attorney. I think when I was growing up in here, my father and his friends would come over and they would talk about war stories, trials and what would happen in the competition and in sports. One thing you know, there’s, there’s a winner and there’s a loser. And the same thing and it’s only three areas of life and Edward Bennett Williams wrote in his book, The Man to See. He lived his life and contest living and in law and in life, there are three areas in which there’s a winner and loser, you know, everybody gets a trophy. Now, everybody gets a certificate of participation. Everyone gets a pat on the back. But in sports there are they’re rather they’re trying to get rid of ties. Occasionally they are, but there’s a winner loses politics. There’s no tie, you win or you lose and courtroom law. And those are the three areas of Life that still have that competition. I love the competition. If football coaches were judged by lawyers would be a lot like lawyers would be a lot different lawyers lose a few cases, they don’t get fired like a football coach. And a little bit lawyers don’t have an opportunity to go out each week and play another game. They may have to wait a month, six months a year or more for their next trial to redeem themselves. But I love the competition. And most importantly, I love the clients and doing a good thing for my clients is what causes me to continue to work hard and do what’s necessary because it’s a hard job to go try case on behalf of an injured person who has no other champion, but you
Chris Dreyer
what you just said makes me think of that quote, second places the first loser. And, you know, that’s that’s the way it is and you’re how competitive you weren’t Sports I’m sure that transition right into the courtroom, the preparation, all the work that you had to do to prepare for a case,
Brian Panish
why I think it’s practice you have no one really loved practice. But you practice you play how you practice. And if you didn’t really have a good week of practice, you weren’t really going to do that well in the game, and I saw it firsthand. And this goes all the way back from being a kid. I had a great foundation high school with a great high school was very sports oriented, the school, very competitive, winning, working accountability, and discipline. Those are the two words discipline and accountability are the two words throughout football and other sports. I put all three sports, football, basketball, baseball in high school, only football in college, but those attributes that you learn in football and you learn about a team, and how important it is to work as a team and in a law firm. It’s like that and then the way trials Today, you’re seeing more and more trials being tried by teams of lawyers. And you have to get along. I’ve done a lot of trials of lawyers, and you need to work as a team and there’s no identity.
Chris Dreyer
I couldn’t agree more. So you talk about a team. Let’s Let’s jump to 2005 where you launch Panish Shea & Boyle? What were the early days of your firm like, you know, forming that team does like vine like minded individuals?
Brian Panish
Well, we started the firm there were four lawyers. We had a moved in, we had boxes all over the place or space hadn’t been built out. And immediately three of us were in trial. And I was in a trial in Burbank, which is outside of Los Angeles. I get the verdict. I have to go on a plane fly to San Francisco and start another trial. Myself and my partner Kevin Boyle. We’re trying a waffle death case against the city and county San Francisco. We got a landmark verdict. So we kind of, you know, started off with a little energize boosts a couple big vertex. And from there we’ve gone to expand and bring in more lawyers and more members of the team to the where we I think we have 37 lawyers today.
Chris Dreyer
And that’s incredible. So those those land, you know, those landmark type cases really helped you create a lot of momentum right from the very beginning. Let’s talk about some of the mistakes, maybe that encounter that you encounter with all that growth. Were there any any pitfalls or mistakes that you learn from for accelerating your growth growth very quickly?
Brian Panish
Well, I think whether you’re big or small, the most important thing for a plaintiff firm is case selection. And if you’re taking cases, because you need more cases, because you have a lot of people, that’s not really a good recipe. So you’ve got to really be careful on case selection. And then, you know, most of the lawyers that have come to the firm are still there and they, they have to be committed. They have to have that passion. For what they do, they have to believe in what they’re doing. They’re not in it for the money even though they all make you know they can make very good money. But if you’re in this business for the money, you’re never going to make it. I mean, it takes a lot of hard work a lot of sacrifice, a lot of commitment and that’s what we’re looking for in the lawyer so as we grew, we’re changes had to be made. But I think you know, every firm has that if you stay the same you know, if you if you stay the same, you’re going back unless you’re moving forward, you’re not going to advance and that’s what you know good friend of my john Morgan says grow or die I don’t hundred percent agree with that part. I think there’s a good bit in that saying was
Chris Dreyer
I couldn’t agree more because if you’re if you’re just kind of treading water, then you’re not doing the advert. You know, the building your brand equity that will transit you know, turn into clients in the future.
Brian Panish
If you’re staying the same. Other people are going to patch you
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. 100% agree. Let’s talk about one of the things you said in that statement, you look for those individuals that are passionate, that that aren’t just in it for the money that are going to pick up the phone call late at night and go drive to meet someone, those people that are truly care. What are some of the things that that you look at to try to identify these individuals?
Brian Panish
Well, I mean, obviously, passion, belief, work ethic, and grit. And grit is something that I’ve learned about in the last couple years. And I’ve studied it and I’ve read about a person that has studied it and written about it. There’s a great book called grit. I actually bought that book and gave it to all the attorneys with a little inscription for the holidays this year. And it has some great examples and what is the importance of grit? I mean, it’s not do studies have shown it’s not the smartest person. It’s not the best looking. It’s not the most lattic what his studies have shown is the people that have the grit that persevere day to day, minute to minute, hour to hour, week to week, and continue to do that consistently, that are going to be successful. And then they might not be the smartest person, or they may not be the best looking, but they’re gonna outwork you, and they’re going out house to you, and they’re going to be successful. And when they get knocked down, they’re not going to feel sorry for themselves. They’re going to give back up and they’re going to keep fighting, and they’re going to have grit. And I think grit is that intangible characteristic that is critical. In all jobs with Sue particularly for a plant floor, because you’re going to go have your ups and downs. And as my one of my first mentor Lee Lipscomb told me, being in trials, like a roller coaster, there’s no better feeling than driving home from court after having a great day in court. But there’s no worse feeling than going home after having a bad day. And you have to try to stay in the middle and try to keep control your emotions, to get through. Hold trial. And I think that’s critical.
Chris Dreyer
Let’s say you identify someone that doesn’t have that grip, that core value, that belief that you share and that you’re looking for for your team. You know, one of the things that when I talk to other business owners they have a problem with they really struggle with someone’s not someone’s a C or B player, and they just keep letting them coast keep letting them coast and it’s they become ingrained in the business. How do you take action to have that candid conversation and to to build the right team when one of those slipped through?
Brian Panish
Well, I mean, there’s no that’s easier said than done. Obviously, nobody wants but you got to coach him, you got to call them in. You got to work with him. You got to oversee him, you got to take baby steps and hopefully you can mold them to where they need to beat some people they can. You have to make adjustments and you know, it’s not like The NFL where you’re here today gone tomorrow. But that mentality, I think it’s hard to have an offer. And you can’t just start cutting everyone, because they, you know, they fumbled the ball or they didn’t make the right move on a certain case, you have to give them opportunity. And you have to train them. And you know, a lot of lawyers, they don’t get adequate training. And a lot of it is not their fault, because they just don’t know any better. Some people are not motivated themselves to go out and seek out ways to make themselves better, but you want people that want to be better, that know every day. They have to get better. And you know, Michael Jordan, he was the most difficult teammate because he was on everybody else, because he wanted greatness and he expected more from everyone and he pushed them and that’s how he got to where he was because he was so competitive. And he never gave up and he pushed all his teammates to grit to greatness.
Chris Dreyer
Yeah, the it’s the the you’re the average of the people that you hang out the most the the other stating the saying I’ve heard is saying something along the lines of mediocre individuals don’t like the people that are playing at this high level and the high level achievers don’t like hanging out with the mediocre individuals because, you know, we’re all on this different path. And I totally agree about the coaching aspect to I’ve heard many, many coaches, whether it’s a great NCAA basketball coach Mike chesky, or great NFL coach, talk about it’s a lot of times when they’re not succeeding, it’s a failure of the coach for not training and developing their people.
Brian Panish
And it’s also the culture and you as the leader, you create the culture and if you look at Duke basketball and you look at Clemson football, you look at Alabama, under Nick Saban, he’s created that culture that the players buy into and the workers buy into and they carry that with them and in a law firm, you need to create a culture, of excellence of training, of grit, and all of that. And the leaders of the firm have to instill that in the employees and they have to buy in or you’re not going to be successful.
Chris Dreyer
And I completely agree. I love that. Brian, so, you know, most of our audience has personal injury attorneys. They’re looking to grow their practice, they’re looking to improve their skill set. And I’ve got to talk about some of the your experience being just a phenomenal trial attorney. If you were going to give advice to these personal injury attorneys on becoming a better trial lawyer. What would be some of your most important recommendations or tips that you’d give them?
Brian Panish
Well, one thing My dad told me, I used to think I was pretty good at cross examination. I would brag to him I did this He saved me. Hey, man, you don’t know anything about cross examination. Go take 1000 depositions. Then you might know something. So I think it’s kind of like golf and all the things, muscle memory repetition, you need to get in there and do it. When I was a young lawyer, I worked in an insurance defense firm. And they gave me the opportunity to try cases a young lawyer, win or lose. I had a great time. Now eventually, I came to a point where I was winning, you know, obviously the case is going to trial, I had an advantage. I was successful. And there was really no, I would say, fun, you know that I go home I win, but the other person who gave me money, but I so I didn’t really like that. So I changed but eventually, you have to be passionate about it. You have to go to these seminars. You have to go watch these other lawyers try cases you have to be a sponge, soak it all up, but you still have to be yourself. You can’t be Mark Lanier. You can’t be one you know athlete Bailey. You have to be yourself, but incorporate in your interview. Some of these techniques that you’ve learned from these other lawyers and look, many, many of these plaintiffs lawyers, they didn’t create this stuff. Somebody else is the one you know, Mo Levine, it’s a blizzard lawyer that I’ve read everything about, I use some of his arguments. He was a lawyer, you know, 60 years ago. And there are many great trial lawyers out there. And each has their own unique style. And I think if you can draw a little bit from all of them, that’s going to help you but it takes hard work. It’s I call being in trial, like cramming for finals every day. I don’t have the luxury to prepare for trial, five months before it occurs. And many lawyers don’t. And you have to be able to keep that even balanced and do other things. When you’re in trial, be able to still work out, get sleep, eat good, because it’s a stressful thing. But if you really enjoy it, and I enjoy it, I don’t I feel happier and more energized when I’m in trial with less sleep and more stress than if I’m sitting at home. Hold on, stay in home order from the governor.
Chris Dreyer
There are so many nuggets there from Moe Levine to you know, just immersing yourself in the world that you want to be better at and just consuming knowledge from conferences and, and other your peers. It kind of what you’re saying reminds me of what I tell my people I say, you know, I my job is like a video game that plays me. I’m just that pays me. I’m an SEO nerd. It’s not like a job. It’s something that I love doing and it’s a passion. So you mentioned a few books you mentioned grit. You mentioned mo Levine what what are a few of your other favorite business books that you like to reference?
Brian Panish
Never eat alone. Don’t split the difference. Never eat alone is a great talking about love. Whenever you’re if you’re a lawyer, personal injury, whatever business you’re in sales, because you’re kind of in sales as a personal injury lawyer but you should Be every lunch every meal, you should be inviting somebody out there and working on pitching them. And you know, I my boss, Lee Lipscomb, who is a great mentor of mine would say to me, you know, Brian, he’s from Oklahoma. He’d say, Brian, you know, I can go down Wilshire Boulevard, which is a big street in LA were a lot of law firms were at the time, this is in the 80s. And he says, I could drive up down Wilshire Boulevard, find a million travelers, Brian, but you find me that a lawyer that can bring in the cases, he could sit in office, put his boots up on his desk, smoked cigars, and talk on the phone all day long. And really, what I’ve learned is, you know, getting the business is the most important thing now and whether it be in the way that things change with the internet and SEO, which you’re familiar with, whether it be TV ads, whether it be one on one relationships, and it’s all about relationships, and building those relationships and continuing to maintain those relationships. They’re going to To help you have that competitive edge and the service that you provide, my business is primarily driven by referral lawyers that refer cases to us. It’s not on TV ads, or you know, SEO, we’re sure maybe you can make us better. Hopefully, we were not as good as we could be probably on that boat. A large majority of cases come from other lawyers. So many times we’re helping other lawyers. And we’re not going to take their case, it’s not one that we want. But that doesn’t mean it’s not important to them, or we can help them in any way, whether it be with experts, trial techniques, settlement, whatever we can. And it’s about building the relationship with our network of lawyers that we co counsel with. Many times young lawyers have come to us. We’ve tried a case with them, they’ve been part of it, and then they’ve gone on to try their own cases and you know, they don’t refer them anymore. But that’s okay. They’re doing a great job for their clients. And they’re, they’re loving what they’re doing. So it’s about relationships. It’s about about getting out there, don’t eat alone. Having that grit split the difdon’t ference. Don’t sweat small stuff, you know move my cheese all that.
Chris Dreyer
And I think that don’t split the difference. I think that’s a Chris Voss Yeah, that’s that’s a great book to one of the things you said that, you know, when you don’t have a brand you don’t have that sphere of influence. You got to look at direct response marketing, you got to look at pay per click and, and getting your name out there with the direct response. And it’s works.
Brian Panish
Yeah, lawyers that come to me that wherever they’ll get these cases, and I’m like, Wow, that’s great. I mean, they they figured out a way their marketing and they’re able to do that. Yeah, and then out there, you just have to have a niche, you know, niche practice. You see people that are very successful in certain parts of the country in different areas of practice. Develop your own niche is critical. I can become an expert something
Chris Dreyer
Yeah. It allows you to immediately stand out you’re not the jack of all trades people. So jack of all trades people can associate you with that niche. You know, when I think of niches too I think Brian Chase and product recall immediately comes to mind not just a personal injury attorney and, and there and I think that you’ve really developed an expertise around being just a tremendous trial term. When I think of trial attorneys I think of Brian Panish and it’s come from your, your successes and doing it over time and building
Brian Panish
comes from having a great team Believe me, I yeah, by myself. There are a lot of lawyers that have helped me through my career have tried cases with me, I’ve prepared cases, abroad cases have been co counsel who I’ve learned from and you got to learn from everyone and everyone has something that you can take away from them and I hear this when you go to a seminar if you can get one good thing, then it’s been worth your while.
Chris Dreyer
I completely agree. And I think I’ve got I’ve got several nuggets in our conversation. I’m gonna go look at that the book grit is probably the first thing I’m going to do. You know, today, your rules changed your your role you have a very successful practice today. What are your high value activities? What are the actions that you do that provide the most value for the firm?
Brian Panish
Well, number one is still trying cases. Number two would be mentoring other younger lawyers and helping them in their career develop. And I think the only way that the firm and I want my firm to still be there to be there is that it’s not just me. There are other lawyers and we have many other lawyers in the firm, that are successful trying cases. And I think to instill in them that passion, that desire to want to try a case and to put value in rewarding lawyers that do try cases somewhere, they don’t want to try cases that’s okay. And you have to love it. You know, you should tell when I was coaching high school football, sometimes some parents would kinda come up and talk about their kid maybe not playing so much. And you always say, Well, you know what, there are a lot of other sports and football is not for everyone. And maybe your son will be better on the tennis team or basketball. And and same thing with trial. There are other types of law that are rewarding that you can engage in that are helpful, worthwhile. And it doesn’t have anything to do with going to court. And some people can do that. But you have to have a special DNA, to want to try these cases to expose yourself and to lose to be rejected. You put everything you have out there, you’re you’re on the line, your credibility and the people rejected and that’s a tough feeling. And you have to be ready to get back and to do it. So mentoring, trying cases developing business and systems. You know, I’ve been my one of my mentors, john Morgan is very, is a huge firm so he has a lot of systems in place. We have developed a lot of systems with our new software Litify, a software program that helps us to manage and keep track of what’s going on.
Chris Dreyer
I those are excellent pieces of advice. I think all of them are just tremendously valuable and and you know, having the systems and processes is the scale to pass on your knowledge to other attorneys to develop their skill set. And the rising tide lifts all boats. Brian, one one final question here. Do you have any advice for your fellow lawyers trying to grow a large successful practice? I know we talked about a bunch but what would be one piece of advice you would give them?
Brian Panish
don’t grow too fast. I think you got it grow at your speed. You know, obviously you want to push the boundaries. But you know your law firm, you got financial considerations. So don’t lose track of the finances. A lot of lawyers are not great businessmen. So I would say my most important point would be pay attention to the business. So Law and don’t lose sight of that when you’re trying to grow your firm.
Chris Dreyer
excellent piece of advice. Guys, we’ve been talking to elite personal injury attorney Brian Panish, co founder of Panish Shea & Boyle. Brian, where can people go to learn more?
Brian Panish
psblaw.com, @panish31 on Twitter. And hopefully you guys will check in and it’s been a pleasure to be here today, Chris, and thanks for having me.
Chris Dreyer
Brian, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Conclusion
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